Battle Of Gods Base Goku Is Weaker Than Frieza?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I just spent a little over an 1 hr responding, only to lose all of my post when I hit submit and tried to log in again. Should've highlighted my text. That's really annoying.

Anyway, I'm just going to keep it short by looking at the battles with the Androids:

1) Goku turns into a Super Saiyan, is stated to be incredible, and proceeds to thrash #19 to the point where his energy was going to run dry. Goku wasn't as "stupendous" as he should've been, but was still strong enough to own #19 with little effort. It didn't really get bad until he used the KameHameHa.

2) Piccolo later easily defeats a powered-up #20 that was without a doubt superior to the #19 that Super Saiyan Goku fought. Piccolo has no transformation, so the only way for his power to be acknowledged is by amplifying his "energy" greatly as he fights. This is why you have Krillin being astounded by his power and the fact that he's really strong for someone who isn't a Super Saiyan--and Tien stating that both Piccolo and Vegeta have powered-up extraordinarily.

With that, we can deduce that Piccolo is shown to outdo Super Saiyan Goku when he fought #19. I'll repeat: Goku without the virus is much better than he was shown to be, as stated--so Piccolo definitely isn't stronger than that Goku. When considering all of this, Piccolo, at the absolute very least, is superior to all of the Base Saiyans.

Base Vegeta isn't stronger than Super Saiyan Goku was against #19, nor could he even come close to damaging #19 as much as Goku did there, weakened or not. Vegeta realized by watching the Androids that they weren't as bad as the stories, but still understands he has to be careful not to get his energy absorbed. Base Goku was already shown to only be able to slightly stun #20, and this is before the reader is shown that his virus was beginning to surface. As "weak" as these Androids are, fighting them without Super Saiyan wasn't an option for the Saiyans.

I think having Piccolo weaker than Goku before fighting Freeza is only so the story could make "more sense", since it's often considered ridiculous that Piccolo could power-up as much as the story implies; despite the fact that it's inferred that his training was special.

[hleV]

2) Piccolo later easily defeats a powered-up #20 that was without a doubt superior to the #19 that Super Saiyan Goku fought.

How exactly is Gero (who absorbed SS Vegeta's blast and some of Piccolo's power) without a doubt superior to #19 (who absorbed SS Goku's Kamehameha)? There are too many unknown variables to tell whether he was or not.

Base Vegeta isn't stronger than Super Saiyan Goku was against #19, nor could he even come close to damaging #19 as much as Goku did there, weakened or not.

Well, base Vegeta left quite an obvious permanent foot mark on #19's face, which SS Goku couldn't do. Take that as you will.

Gero also ran away from exhausted base Vegeta.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

How exactly is Gero (who absorbed SS Vegeta's blast and some of Piccolo's power) without a doubt superior to #19 (who absorbed SS Goku's Kamehameha)? There are too many unknown variables to tell whether he was or not.

I wasn't clear. I'm talking about #19 at the level he was at before he absorbed any energy.

Well, base Vegeta left quite an obvious permanent foot mark on #19's face, which SS Goku couldn't do. Take that as you will.

Super Saiyan Goku was in the process of beating #19 dry, which #20 states was going to happen if the opportunity to absorb Goku's energy didn't present itself. I'd like to think that'd be more impressive.

Gero also ran away from exhausted base Vegeta.

Because he thought Vegeta had a trick up his sleeve and didn't want to chance it. Piccolo said if #20 stood his ground, he would've beaten Vegeta because he lost a good amount of stamina.

[hleV]

Piccolo has no transformation, so the only way for his power to be acknowledged is by amplifying his "energy" greatly as he fights. This is why you have Krillin being astounded by his power and the fact that he's really strong for someone who isn't a Super Saiyan--and Tenshinhan stating that both Piccolo and Vegeta have powered-up extraordinarily.

Piccolo explained to Gero that he isn't always at his maximum and rather powers up when needed. Gero didn't have such information because he's limited to the events of the Saiyan arc and prior, when people didn't reduce their power this much. Kuririn compared Piccolo to SS because Piccolo was dominating a supposedly SS-tier opponent. Same goes for Tenshinhan: Piccolo was beating a supposedly SS-tier opponent and Vegeta had SS, so obviously they've powered-up extraordinaly.

With that, we can deduce that Piccolo is shown to outdo Super Saiyan Goku when he fought #19.

I disagree. Both SS Goku and Piccolo were defeating their respective opponents, but through certain factors (viruses, absorptions, character statements that can be interpreted/explained differently), it becomes a mess which prevents coming to character strength-related conclusions.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Piccolo explained to Gero that he isn't always at his maximum and rather powers up when needed. Gero didn't have such information because he's limited to the events of the Saiyan arc and prior, when people didn't reduce their power this much. Kuririn compared Piccolo to SS because Piccolo was dominating a supposedly SS-tier opponent. Same goes for Tenshinhan: Piccolo was beating a supposedly SS-tier opponent and Vegeta had SS, so obviously they've powered-up extraordinaly.

I know. Both of these Androids weren't as good as they were made out to be--so that leaves room for them to be Freeza tier or less. Even considering that, I think Piccolo's showing at least puts him well above the Base Saiyans. So he'd still be weaker than the Super Saiyans at the end of the day, but still way more powerful than he was after training with Goku.

I disagree. Both SS Goku and Piccolo were defeating their respective opponents, but through certain factors (viruses, absorptions, character statements that can be interpreted/explained differently), it becomes a mess which prevents coming to character strength-related conclusions.

You know, I can agree with this line of thinking. I can see why some might consider Piccolo's power-up a bit too drastic if he's stronger than Freeza. Heck, I was one of those people at one point. So, I'll just say Piccolo's training with Super Saiyan Goku made him much more powerful than before--but how strong he grew comes down to our interpretation.

[Hellspawn28]

I'm surprise no one brought up Gohan killing Freeza in Fusion Reborn yet?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I'm surprise no one brought up Gohan killing Freeza in Fusion Reborn yet?

Freeza was using 50% of his power at most, and the base Saiyans could be above that.

[Saiga]

Son_Gohan has totally changed my mind on Piccolo and the initial Android's power. I still believe Piccolo is stronger than the base Saiyans here, but I definitely think I've been overestimating him big time. I think he's probably closer to the base Saiyans than he is to the Super Saiyans (ie if the base Saiyans are 1 and the Super Saiyans are 50, Piccolo wouldn't be 25 or over).

But to address the topic title, I still cannot fathom why this is such a big problem for people. If you believe the base Saiyans are stronger than Freeza, then great. Nothing's stopping you. You're not forced to accept what BoG says, and even if you want to accept BoG as part of your personal canon or whatever, you can still have the base Saiyans stronger than Freeza because BoG isn't explicit about Goku being weaker. There's plenty of evidence for Goku being suppressed whenever he's not fighting (late Saiyan arc, vs Ginyu Force, Babidi's spaceship, Jump special) and Kaio's comment about Beers being well informed is vague as to what he's referring to (personally I think the wording makes more sense to refer to Goku becoming a Super Saiyan, since that is about a fact rather than Beers' assessment).

The base Saiyans vs Freeza is simply not something we have a concrete answer to either way.

@Hellspawn Well, that Freeza wasn't at 100%, which is what people always seem to compare the base Saiyans to.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Son_Gohan has totally changed my mind on Piccolo and the initial Android's power. I still believe Piccolo is stronger than the base Saiyans here, but I definitely think I've been overestimating him big time. I think he's probably closer to the base Saiyans than he is to the Super Saiyans (ie if the base Saiyans are 1 and the Super Saiyans are 50, Piccolo wouldn't be 25 or over).

But to address the topic title, I still cannot fathom why this is such a big problem for people. If you believe the base Saiyans are stronger than Freeza, then great. Nothing's stopping you. You're not forced to accept what BoG says, and even if you want to accept BoG as part of your personal canon or whatever, you can still have the base Saiyans stronger than Freeza because BoG isn't explicit about Goku being weaker. There's plenty of evidence for Goku being suppressed whenever he's not fighting (late Saiyan arc, vs Ginyu Force, Babidi's spaceship, Jump special) and Kaio's comment about Beers being well informed is vague as to what he's referring to (personally I think the wording makes more sense to refer to Goku becoming a Super Saiyan, since that is about a fact rather than Beers' assessment).

The base Saiyans vs Freeza is simply not something we have a concrete answer to either way.

@Hellspawn Well, that Freeza wasn't at 100%, which is what people always seem to compare the base Saiyans to.

Kaio actually states that Beers is right about Goku being unable to beat Freeza.

[Saiga]

No, you don't know that. Beers says two things and Kaio simply says he's correct and well informed, but it's unclear what he's actually referring to. I addressed that. Believe what you want to believe, but it's not impossible that he's referring to Beers' comment about Super Saiyan when he says that.

[TheMightyOzaru]

He would have specified if he was only referring to one thing.

[Saiga]

He would have specified if he was only referring to one thing.

Not necessarily. It's not explicit what he's referring to.

[TheGmGoken]

He would have specified if he was only referring to one thing.

Not necessarily. It's not explicit what he's referring to.

Wasn't he referring to Ssj > Freeza

[MDSTSSJ]

He would have specified if he was only referring to one thing.

Not necessarily. It's not explicit what he's referring to.

Exactly!!

That's why I said this in the 2nd page:

Kaio says " That is correct. You are well informed "

According Kaio, Bills is well informed on what? In that he doesn't think Goku could beat Freeza as he is now or Goku can powering up and become Super Saiyan? According to the order of the statements, I think Kaio agree with " Goku can powering up and become Super Saiya-jin " and Goku doesn't argue because that's true ( become SSJ ).

[khalildh]

He would have specified if he was only referring to one thing.

Not necessarily. It's not explicit what he's referring to.

Exactly!!

That's why I said this in the 2nd page:

Kaio says " That is correct. You are well informed "

According Kaio, Bills is well informed on what? In that he doesn't think Goku could beat Freeza as he is now or Goku can powering up and become Super Saiyan? According to the order of the statements, I think Kaio agree with " Goku can powering up and become Super Saiya-jin " and Goku doesn't argue because that's true ( become SSJ ).

Just to throw in some more controversy, Bills already knew that Goku could become a SSJ from the video he had scene. Kaio could be argued to only be referring to Goku not being stronger than Frieza in base.

[hleV]

He would have specified if he was only referring to one thing.

Not necessarily. It's not explicit what he's referring to.

Beerus says two things and Kaio remaks that Beerus is correct and well informed. Can you honestly say that being well informed while being wrong is not a contradiction? Not that BOG isn't famous for contradictions, but I don't think that we should make a contradiction here when it's completely unnecessary.

[TheMightyOzaru]

He would have specified if he was only referring to one thing.

Not necessarily. It's not explicit what he's referring to.

Beerus says two things and Kaio remaks that Beerus is correct and well informed. Can you honestly say that being well informed while being wrong is not a contradiction? Not that BOG isn't famous for contradictions, but I don't think that we should make a contradiction here when it's completely unnecessary.

^This.

[Saiga]

Beerus says two things and Kaio remaks that Beerus is correct and well informed. Can you honestly say that being well informed while being wrong is not a contradiction?

Sure you can. Because Beers assessment of Goku isn't based on how well informed he is, but his knowledge of Super Saiyan is.

[astrallite]

To me, at the very least a power equal to Goku's during the final showdown with Freeza is needed to in order to become a Super Saiyan. Other wise Trunks being able to nick his dad on the cheek and Goten catching his brother off guard with how fast he could throw those stones wouldn't make any sense.

Future Gohan was in base and easily beating SSJ Trunks in training, he was barely sweating while Trunks looked like he was going all out. Either Future Gohan's base was 50x stronger, or you don't need to anywhere near 3 million PL to go Super Saiyan.

[astrallite]

I think the base boys/Mighty Mask being around Android 18 kinda debunks the idea that base Goku/Vegeta/Gohan, etc are not able to fodderize Freeza. Vegeta also said on the plane it wouldnt matter he'd win the tournament in base with 18 sitting right by him. Goku also fought Yakkon in base about evenly, I have a hard time seeing kaioshin being frightened by Yakkon if he was weaker than Freeza. Freeza Kaioshin basiclly considered fodder.

Although I've never seen any real evidence that the SSJ multiplier is consisently 50x. It was 50x on Namek but if Goku could up his Kaiokens from x4 to x20 such a short period of time, you'd figure he'd up his SSJ multiplier too.

So ignoring the Buu saga stuff about base Saiyans then Freeza being stronger than base Goku would be fine but Goku could be 1,000x stronger than Freeza in SSJ, who knows

Androids in the Android Arc until they fought post-fused Piccolo didn't use full power normally, plus Krillin told 18 specifically to hold back during the tournament. 18 only hit the machine 4-5 times harder than a normal human and fought round after round of humans in tournament before facing Mighty Mask, and continued to fight humans afterwards. 18 never implied she was going all-out until she realized who she was facing, and that was AFTER the kids transformed to SSJ.