Androids 19 & 20 stronger than Freeza?

[Saiga]

No, not either of them. I think they were initially around King Cold's level.

I'm rather certain that King Cold is more powerful than Freeza. I'm pretty sure that it's in the manga that Gohan notes that when their spaceship approaches Earth the second power, King Cold, 'is even stronger than Freeza'.

That line isn't present in the manga. In the manga, Gohan just says that Freeza isn't at his full power yet. Guidebooks say Cold is inferior to Freeza and Cold says that Goku must be the strongest in the universe after defeating Freeza, because whoever could defeat Freeza would become the new strongest in the universe.

Freeza prior to his implants is stronger than Cold in the manga, by how much is unknown.

[freezamite]

Gohan just says that Freeza isn't at his full power yet.

Gohan says that because he doesn't know what "mecha" freezer is. What is really implied in that sentence is that Mecha Freezer is much weaker than the original one (if mecha had more power, he would've used it against Trunks SSJ).

[Saiga]

Gohan just says that Freeza isn't at his full power yet.

Gohan says that because he doesn't know what "mecha" freezer is. What is really implied in that sentence is that Mecha Freezer is much weaker than the original one (if mecha had more power, he would've used it against Trunks SSJ).

That isn't implied at all. We see that Mecha Freeza isn't at 100%, and Trunks tells him to go full power, implying that he's not yet there. The reason he doesn't power up is because he underestimates Trunks and is killed before he realizes his folly.

[Blade]

Gohan just says that Freeza isn't at his full power yet.

Gohan says that because he doesn't know what "mecha" freezer is. What is really implied in that sentence is that Mecha Freezer is much weaker than the original one (if mecha had more power, he would've used it against Trunks SSJ).

That isn't implied at all. We see that Mecha Freeza isn't at 100%, and Trunks tells him to go full power, implying that he's not yet there. The reason he doesn't power up is because he underestimates Trunks and is killed before he realizes his folly.

I don't think Freeza would come to Earth with the intention to kill Goku if he didn't think he was powerful enough, even in his arrogance. He was outclassed before his implants, so surely if he was weakened by them he would be aware of the fact he would be even more likely to die.

As for the what Cold says to Freeza about Goku being the strongest in the universe, I always saw it as a subtle dig. Freeza believed himself to be the strongest in the universe and absolute ruler of it, but it's clear that King Cold carries a higher rank, making Freeza's rule not entirely absolute, if not subordinate to his father.

Besides, the story re-writes the 'strongest being' in the Universe tag repeatedly to suit the situation of the protagonists. If you look back to before the Freeza saga, Vegeta believes himself to be and is considered the strongest being in the Universe.

[Saiga]

As for the what Cold says to Freeza about Goku being the strongest in the universe, I always saw it as a subtle dig. Freeza believed himself to be the strongest in the universe and absolute ruler of it, but it's clear that King Cold carries a higher rank, making Freeza's rule not entirely absolute, if not subordinate to his father.

Besides, the story re-writes the 'strongest being' in the Universe tag repeatedly to suit the situation of the protagonists. If you look back to before the Freeza saga, Vegeta believes himself to be and is considered the strongest being in the Universe.

"King" is part of his name, though, not a rank. Freeza's the one who is said to be in charge of the whole business, and is said to be the most powerful in the universe by more than just Freeza and Cold.

The story only re-writes that tag when it comes to Vegeta, and I think the Saiyan > Namek transition is one of the least smooth in the series because of things like that. Going by the manga alone, from the time Freeza was reigning until Goku turned Super Saiyan, he really was the strongest in the universe. The ones who were stronger than him, either came after this point (Androids, Cell, living Super Saiyans, Kamiccolo) were apart of another realm (Kaioshin, Dabra - notably Kaioshin states that one can be the strongest of THIS universe while Dabra is the strongest of his realm, so Dabra's history contradicts nothing) or sealed away (Boo, Boo within Boo).

The fact that Freeza keeps being used as a reference point instead of Cold makes it plainly obvious to me that he's the superior one, if several characters saying so wasn't enough.

[freezamite]

Gohan just says that Freeza isn't at his full power yet.

Gohan says that because he doesn't know what "mecha" freezer is. What is really implied in that sentence is that Mecha Freezer is much weaker than the original one (if mecha had more power, he would've used it against Trunks SSJ).

That isn't implied at all. We see that Mecha Freeza isn't at 100%, and Trunks tells him to go full power, implying that he's not yet there. The reason he doesn't power up is because he underestimates Trunks and is killed before he realizes his folly.

It's implied since Mecha Freezer doesn't power up. Mecha Freezer doesn't underestimate Trunks after he transforms into a SSJ, in fact he is terrorized.
Mecha Freezer attacks with his full power, the same that Gohan thought was only a fraction of Freezer's power, and in fact is defeated by someone who had the same ki than SSJ Goku on Namek and when he comes back from Yadrat.

I don't think Freeza would come to Earth with the intention to kill Goku if he didn't think he was powerful enough, even in his arrogance.
He was outclassed before his implants, so surely if he was weakened by them he would be aware of the fact he would be even more likely to die.

That's true, and that's also why I think Freezer was going at "full power" since the beginning.
Freezer couldn't perceive and compare Kis, and even when he talked about the percentage of strength he was using he was only approximating it (even I as a human can guess how much of my strength in a certain situation) which means that he didn't know in absolute terms how strong he was.
Mecha Freezer's mechanical implants gave him some advantages like not becoming tired after using his full force (something he was able to perceive) and that's a huge advantage. In fact, he loses his fight against Goku not because he is weaker (even AGD) but because he gets tired much faster.
He also lost because of his injuries (the Genkidama was a nearly fatal blow) and the strength lost. He couldn't know how much strength the had lost, but he could of course feel himself tired and injured, much weaker than his normal self, so even if in his mecha form he is weaker, his perception had to be as if he regained his strength.

The fact that Freeza keeps being used as a reference point instead of Cold makes it plainly obvious to me that he's the superior one, if several characters saying so wasn't enough.

Not only he keeps being the reference, but also the relationship we see between father and son points towards that. Cold never spoke of himself as being the number one, while Freezer did it even when Cold was in scene.

[hleV]

Mecha Freeza being weaker than Namek Freeza is out of question. He may not have powered up to 100% against Trunks, but his maximum is definitely higher. If you don't think it is, you're interpreting it incorrectly. In fact, Freeza may not have intended to power up to 100%, which tires him out, but rather fight at 70% of his power with the help of Cold.

[RandomGuy96]

No, not either of them. I think they were initially around King Cold's level.

I'm rather certain that King Cold is more powerful than Freeza. I'm pretty sure that it's in the manga that Gohan notes that when their spaceship approaches Earth the second power, King Cold, 'is even stronger than Freeza'.

As noted, Cold said Freeza was stronger than him. Twice. And so did Freeza. Thrice. And the guidebooks repeated it.

Cold twice declares that anyone that can beat Freeza is the strongest person in the universe: when Goku does it and when Trunks does it. The Daizenshuu notes that despite his rank, "Cold is somewhat inferior to Freeza".

[TheDevilsCorpse]

"King" is part of his name, though, not a rank. Freeza's the one who is said to be in charge of the whole business, and is said to be the most powerful in the universe by more than just Freeza and Cold.

Freeza is a figurehead; the face of the organization. Cold still pulls strings from the shadows according to the supplemental info.

Also, his Japanese title is daiō, just like Pilaf. Why would "king" be part of his name?

Cold, King
King of the universe
Freeza's father. He is a shadowy presence in the organization, and nobody knows of his existence apart from his family and his direct subordinates, not even the Ginyu Special-Squad. Though he's the head of the strongest family in the universe, he is somewhat inferior to Freeza.

Ferocious and gigantic power gathered from throughout the entire universe.
There currently exists a formidable organization centered around Prince Freeza, who is called the strongest in the universe. Freeza's father King Cold controls things from up above. They gather talented people from throughout the universe with exceptionally high battle powers and add them as their subordinates. The result of this is that they are a military corps that mixes together a truly enormous number of different races.

[Monkey D Goku]

I would say weaker considering Piccolo beat #20 without much difficulty. I find it highly unlikely Piccolo could surpass Frieza by just training with Goku and Gohan for a couple years.

Frieza stronger than 19 and 20.

[Blade]

I would say weaker considering Piccolo beat #20 without much difficulty. I find it highly unlikely Piccolo could surpass Freeza by just training with Goku and Gohan for a couple years.

Freeza stronger than 19 and 20.

That would be to infer that #20 is more powerful than #19. Is that proven?

[Saiga]

Yes, Gero says so, and so do the guidebooks.

[Kaboom]

My stance on the question of "are Androids 19 and 20 stronger or weaker than Freeza" is "both." I think they started out weaker than him by a good margin (though No.20 may have been pretty close), but matched or became stronger than him through absorption. It would allow for them "greatly increasing"their power through absorption," while avoiding giving the Super Saiyans an unnecessarily huge multi-fold boosts over SSJ Goku from the Namek arc.

To put some numbers to it, if Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta are both somewhere between 250 and 300 million by this point, then the two Androids would start out at a good chunk under 100 million but eventually be pushing 150 million or so after absorbing ki. Incidentally, that'd probably put Piccolo around 200 million before his re-merging with Kami.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

My stance on the question of "are Androids 19 and 20 stronger or weaker than Freeza" is "both." I think they started out weaker than him by a good margin (though No.20 may have been pretty close), but matched or became stronger than him through absorption. It would allow for them "greatly increasing"their power through absorption," while avoiding giving the Super Saiyans an unnecessarily huge multi-fold boosts over SSJ Goku from the Namek arc.

To put some numbers to it, if Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta are both somewhere between 250 and 300 million by this point, then the two Androids would start out at a good chunk under 100 million but eventually be pushing 150 million or so after absorbing ki. Incidentally, that'd probably put Piccolo around 200 million before his re-merging with Kami.

Isn't that way, way, way too much though? He was only around 1.000.000 5 years ago.

[Kaboom]

Isn't that way, way, way too much though? He was only around 1.000.000 5 years ago.

It wouldn't be the first time we've seen Piccolo make pretty big gains just through training.

- Going from a newborn to equal with an also-improved Goku in 3 years.
- Going from less than half as powerful as Raditz to almost as strong as Nappa in one year.
- Going from that same level to strong enough to impress Nail in six days.
- Going from barely equal with Android 17 to "a whole other level," presumably stronger than Stage-2 Cell, in one year.

If you subscribe to the idea that merging with Nail not only increased his current power, but also his potential for growth, then factor in having a Super Saiyan for a training partner for three straight years... Piccolo getting that strong isn't all that far-fetched.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

- Going from a newborn to equal with an also-improved Goku in 3 years.

Wasn't it stated that Piccolo inherited all of Piccolo Daimao's power & memories?

- Going from less than half as powerful as Raditz to almost as strong as Nappa in one year.

We saw in filler-by-Toriyama that Piccolo was sparring with himself, so if it's a new technique he just developed, then that's probably why he grew so strong. But still, he grew around 9 times stronger, not 200 times.

- Going from that same level to strong enough to impress Nail in six days.

Nail could be impressed with Piccolo because Piccolo is above the standard level of the Namekian Warriors, which is around 3.000 from what we saw.

- Going from barely equal with Android 17 to "a whole other level," presumably stronger than Stage-2 Cell, in one year.

He trained for the first time inside the Room of Spirit and Time, plus, look below.

If you subscribe to the idea that merging with Nail not only increased his current power, but also his potential for growth, then factor in having a Super Saiyan for a training partner for three straight years... Piccolo getting that strong isn't all that far-fetched.

I do subscribe to this idea, and I do believe that that's partially the reason I believe Piccolo got much stronger both then & inside the RoSaT, but still, a x200 increase is way too much.

[Kaboom]

Well, diffrn't strokes, then. The way I see it, it's either give Piccolo some extra credit, or sell Androids 19 and 20 too short. I'd rather do the former.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If it works for you, then we are cool. I personally have Piccolo, #19, and #20 far above the base Saiyans, but far below the Super Saiyans. Somewhere in the middle.

[Saiga]

I don't think anything is going to work for me in regards to Piccolo's gain. I can minimize the bullshit but it's still bullshit to me.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't think anything is going to work for me in regards to Piccolo's gain. I can minimize the bullshit but it's still bullshit to me.

It all depends where you put #19 & #20, since all we know is that they are stronger than the base Saiyans, but weaker than the Super Saiyans. Piccolo could be not very far from the base Saiyans. It's almost entirely opinion-based.