Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[TheMightyOzaru]

He's a SSJ and Freeza is scared shitless. He would take the opportunity to go all out.

That's the thing though. He dwarfed whatever power he fought. Why would anyone care if Freeza powered up when Trunks clearly slaughtered him? You also can't assume the parts stretch either. That's a fallacy.

The z fighters noticed perfect cell's power up to full power even though ssj2 gohan dwarfed him. They would have also noticed Freeza powering up even if trunks was above that. But they didn't note any power up. Therefore he didn't power up.

They are merely surprised Cell could get stronger.

[dario03]

I don't actually have a opinion of how much power Freeza used or if he can or needs to buff up but I will say that it could be possible for his mechanical parts to expand. It's space science after all so why not. And Vegeta's space science armor didn't look all that stretchy to me, it actually looks brittle at times like when it is damaged but it expands a ton when he transforms. And on Earth they have capsules which can fit in your hand and seem to weigh barely anything but can have whole houses in them.

[TheMightyOzaru]

It's a valid conclusion, but nothing suggests it. Assuming Freeza was suppressed also makes Trunks's domination less awesome.

[RandomGuy96]

The notion that Freeza doesn't have to bulk up to get his true power anymore doesn't even make any sense, since his 100% power wasn't even his 100% power, it was the result of him unnaturally pumping his body up with ki. It's the same principle behind Grade II essentially. It's a transformation, and to get the benefits of a transformation, you have to... well, change forms. Freeza also never powered up, was never noted to have powered up, and scoffed at the idea that he should power up. I.e., there are zero indications of a power up.

[TheMightyOzaru]

It makes perfect sense. The machine parts allow him to get stronger without bulking up. I honestly have a hard time believing the scraps they used to put Freeza back together could expand with his body. That aside though, I do seem to recall Vegeta claiming Freeza had powered up ? If that is the case, Gohan's statement directly contradicts Vegeta's.
EDIT: NVM, that's a dub thing.

[khalildh]

Updated my Boo Saga power levels a bit.

Goku: 10
SSJ: 500
SSJ2: 1000 (100x base or 2x increase)
SSJ3: 3000 (300x base or 3x increase, naturally requires dead body), (2750 Against Kid Boo at peak (Rapidly falls), Caused by living body) (3x SSJ Against Majin Buu 1500)(Theoretical over-boosted SSJ3 can reach 4000, also what he uses when he got the shenron wish)

Using these numbers I will fill in the rest of the casts power levels.
If you think something is off with the list I would ask you make an argument as to why someone should be elsewhere.

Vegeta: 8
SSJ: 400
SSJ2: 800
Majin Vegeta: 10 (1.25x base increase)
SSJ2 Majin Vegeta: 1000 (125x base or 1.25 increase of SSJ2)

Gohan: 5
SSJ: 250
SSJ2: 500
Ultimate Gohan: 2500 (500x base increase)

Goten: 2.85
SSJ:142.5

Trunks: 3
SSJ: 150

Piccolo: 600

Before Rosat.
Gotenks: 14
SSJ: 700

Post Rosat
Gotenks: 15
SSJ: 750
SSJ3: 2250 (3x SSJ the same Goku displayed against Majin Boo)

Vegito: 200
Candy Super Vegito: 10,000
True Super Vegito: Somewhere in between the highest number you can think of multiplied by 8 and SSJ God Goku.

Dabura: 600

Majin Buu: 1000

Super Buu: 2000
Buutenks with Piccolo absorbed: 4550
Buucollo with Base Gotenks: 2315
Buuhan: 4836


Kid Buu: 2700

[Kamiccolo9]

Leaving aside the whole Pure Buu vs Super Buu thing, since I don't feel like getting involved in that again, why do you have Fat Buu equal to Majin Vegeta? It's pretty clear he's much stronger than any of the SSJ2's at that point.

And why is Piccolo equal to Dabura?

[khalildh]

Leaving aside the whole Pure Buu vs Super Buu thing, since I don't feel like getting involved in that again, why do you have Fat Buu equal to Majin Vegeta? It's pretty clear he's much stronger than any of the SSJ2's at that point.

And why is Piccolo equal to Dabura?

I think Majin Boo is a high SSJ2 Tier character, and that Vegeta might have likely won if not for the ridiculous regeneration.

So basically I have it at

Low SSJ3 > Over Boosted SSJ2 (Like Gotenks would have been, or Gohan had he kept training and got a Rage Boost) > Majin Boo > High SSJ2 (Vegeta and Goku) > Medium SSJ2 (Kid Gohan) > Low SSJ2 ( Teen Gohan after no training)

I could put Majin Boo closer to 1200 ish, but I don't think it is very relevant.

I could put Dabura at 600, I can't remember if he is Perfect Cell or SPC tier, I will move him up to 600.

[RandomGuy96]

You putting SS3 Goku above Super Buu and about on par with Buutenks (what. the. fuck?) really prevents me from taking this list seriously at all. Super > Pure was stated directly or indirectly about a dozen times; denying it is like saying that Nappa is weaker than a Saibaman. That, and having Fatso equal to SS2 Vegeta, when Vegeta said he and Goku would have to team up to beat him as SS2s BEFORE knowing about his regeneration, just by sensing his ki... and BEFORE Buu did a huge power up when Vegeta insulted him.

[khalildh]

You putting SS3 Goku above Super Buu and about on par with Buutenks (what. the. fuck?) really prevents me from taking this list seriously at all. Super > Pure was stated directly or indirectly about a dozen times; denying it is like saying that Nappa is weaker than a Saibaman. That, and having Fatso equal to SS2 Vegeta, when Vegeta said he and Goku would have to team up to beat him as SS2s BEFORE knowing about his regeneration, just by sensing his ki... and BEFORE Buu did a huge power up when Vegeta insulted him.

If you are following along in the first sentence, I have the 4000 Goku only in his full power dead body something we do not see him use, and it is implied that it is stronger than his living body's full power. Pure being weaker than Super Boo is unlikely, but if your argument rests on Goku being weaker than Super Boo you would have to prove that first.

Goku also said Boo's Ki is a lie, it doesn't matter that 2 SSJ2 would be required to beat an over boosted SSJ 2 equivalent. If Vegeta had done his explosion and Goku would have been there to clean up the pieces they would have finished Boo, I could move him to 1200, but anymore is just unnecessary power bloating.


Also that line about Nappa and Saibamen is just hyperbole, it doesn't help you win any arguments. Nice attempt at that strawman argument though.

[Floader]

You putting SS3 Goku above Super Buu and about on par with Buutenks (what. the. fuck?) really prevents me from taking this list seriously at all. Super > Pure was stated directly or indirectly about a dozen times; denying it is like saying that Nappa is weaker than a Saibaman. That, and having Fatso equal to SS2 Vegeta, when Vegeta said he and Goku would have to team up to beat him as SS2s BEFORE knowing about his regeneration, just by sensing his ki... and BEFORE Buu did a huge power up when Vegeta insulted him.

If you are following along in the first sentence, I have the 4000 Goku only in his full power dead body something we do not see him use, and it is implied that it is stronger than his living body's full power. Pure being weaker than Super Boo is unlikely, but if your argument rests on Goku being weaker than Super Boo you would have to prove that first.

Goku also said Boo's Ki is a lie, it doesn't matter that 2 SSJ2 would be required to beat an over boosted SSJ 2 equivalent. If Vegeta had done his explosion and Goku would have been there to clean up the pieces they would have finished Boo, I could move him to 1200, but anymore is just unnecessary power bloating.


Also that line about Nappa and Saibamen is just hyperbole, it doesn't help you win any arguments. Nice attempt at that straw man argument though.

Hey guys, I'm new here so I hope no one minds if I just insert myself into the conversation…

I personally think you're misunderstanding the difference between Goku's dead and living body. Goku repeatedly talks about the difference between laws of the Other World and Living World in reference to the effects on his body. He refers to differences in his stamina and durability, not really the amount of ki he can generate. However, these two factors do greatly influence his ability in battle. So while his full power is not effected, his ability to maintain his full power is diminished and his ki drains quickly due to the strain of SSJ3.

As for the Pure Boo>Evil Boo argument, Goku himself states that he can't match Evil Boo and there is no reason given to doubt him. Goku concedes that he didn't use his full power against the Fat Boo and that he could've beaten him, he never says anything of the sort regarding Evil Boo. Dragon Ball is not an overly deep manga and what is stated can be taken pretty much at face value unless it is later contradicted. If Goku had been lying about not being a match for Evil Boo, the author would have let us know if some form.

[khalildh]

You putting SS3 Goku above Super Buu and about on par with Buutenks (what. the. fuck?) really prevents me from taking this list seriously at all. Super > Pure was stated directly or indirectly about a dozen times; denying it is like saying that Nappa is weaker than a Saibaman. That, and having Fatso equal to SS2 Vegeta, when Vegeta said he and Goku would have to team up to beat him as SS2s BEFORE knowing about his regeneration, just by sensing his ki... and BEFORE Buu did a huge power up when Vegeta insulted him.

If you are following along in the first sentence, I have the 4000 Goku only in his full power dead body something we do not see him use, and it is implied that it is stronger than his living body's full power. Pure being weaker than Super Boo is unlikely, but if your argument rests on Goku being weaker than Super Boo you would have to prove that first.

Goku also said Boo's Ki is a lie, it doesn't matter that 2 SSJ2 would be required to beat an over boosted SSJ 2 equivalent. If Vegeta had done his explosion and Goku would have been there to clean up the pieces they would have finished Boo, I could move him to 1200, but anymore is just unnecessary power bloating.


Also that line about Nappa and Saibamen is just hyperbole, it doesn't help you win any arguments. Nice attempt at that straw man argument though.

Hey guys, I'm new here so I hope no one minds if I just insert myself into the conversation…

I personally think you're misunderstanding the difference between Goku's dead and living body. Goku repeatedly talks about the difference between laws of the Other World and Living World in reference to the effects on his body. He refers to differences in his stamina and durability, not really the amount of ki he can generate. However, these two factors do greatly influence his ability in battle. So while his full power is not effected, his ability to maintain his full power is diminished and his ki drains quickly due to the strain of SSJ3.

As for the Pure Boo>Evil Boo argument, Goku himself states that he can't match Evil Boo and there is no reason given to doubt him. Goku concedes that he didn't use his full power against the Fat Boo and that he could've beaten him, he never says anything of the sort regarding Evil Boo. Dragon Ball is not an overly deep manga and what is stated can be taken pretty much at face value unless it is later contradicted. If Goku had been lying about not being a match for Evil Boo, the author would have let us know if some form.

Your argument against Goku's full power not being diminished when he is in a living body is full of conjecture, I can't say it is impossible, but it can not be used as proof that Goku fighting in the other world not have a greater max battle power then if he fought in the living world. Also SSJ3 is often described as bringing a body to its max potential, if the living body has less capacity to store Ki (remember Goku hasn't had a living body in 7 years) then it is likely that it would have less potential than his dead body.


Also the Goku quotes about him saying he will die are often taken out of context, In that situation Goku probably would have died. We don't know about a 1 vs 1 fight though. I would argue that if Super Boo had absorbed anyone again, Gohan, Gotenks or even Vegeta. That Goku would have died because a Super Boo with an absorption is stronger than Goku SSJ3. To explain the point more, Vegito could have killed Boohan, but he decided he wanted to go inside Boo save everyone and then come outside and kill Boo having saved everyone. When he Vegito defused Goku and Vegeta destroyed the potara because they knew that once they got rid of the absorption(s) Super Boo would have been an easy opponent for SSJ3 Goku. Once everyone is removed Goku tries to go SSJ (Not SSJ3) in order to blast a hole through Boo, this suggests that he thinks a blast from a Super Saiyan should be able to blow a hole through Boo. Goku then realizes his own power has shrunk a decent amount, which validates his previous statement about them not being able to beat Super Boo if they left Boo like that. Then after that Goku still suggests he has a way to defeat Super Boo, namely the Full Power of SSJ3 that he hasn't shown to anyone (And Super Boo is known to underestimate his opponents, and he hasn't seen a Goku's True SSJ3).


I can move Goku's Max Dead SSJ3 to 3000 without affecting my list much though.

[TheMightyOzaru]

The whole Ssj3 Goku being above characters like Ultimate Gohan thing needs to stop. I don't understand what on Earth makes people think he's so strong, but he isn't. The idea that Gotenks, for whatever reason, has a smaller multiplier for Ssj3 is just absurd. It's completely baseless and bias. Ssj3 is 8 times Ssj and that's that. If Gotenks' power didn't increase that much, he wouldn't be a Ssj3. It's simple.

[khalildh]

The whole Ssj3 Goku being above characters like Ultimate Gohan thing needs to stop. I don't understand what on Earth makes people think he's so strong, but he isn't. The idea that Gotenks, for whatever reason, has a smaller multiplier for Ssj3 is just absurd. It's completely baseless and bias. Ssj3 is 8 times Ssj and that's that. If Gotenks' power didn't increase that much, he wouldn't be a Ssj3. It's simple.

So your 8x multiplier is Akira Toriyama's word? Please make a decent argument instead of playground logic.

[Floader]

Again, I'll reiterate that Dragon Ball isn't deep and Toriyama is very straightforward in his characterizations. If Goku outright says that can't beat Evil Boo, and it is not later contradicted as is the case with Fat Boo, it can be taken as fact.

[Floader]

Also, the 8x multiplier is from the Super Exciting Guide. Like the Daizenshuus, the level of the authors involvement in aspects like battle powers and multipliers is debatable, but it is an official multiplier. Take that as you will.

[khalildh]

Toriyama is very straightforward in his characterizations.

Really?


He purposely made Kid Boo's characterization ambiguous and you call that straightforward? He purposely got rid of Power levels so that he could be as ambiguous as possible in the Android Saga to somehow try to keep the humans relevant. There is a lot of evidence that points to Super Saiyan barely being a 2x boost and yet the Base saiyans are weaker than Frieza? Even the fact that so many people can disagree on these issues implies that it isn't as straightforward as you would exclaim. Is there a right answer? I would like to believe so, but is there a way of discerning it that can be validated? I doubt that. I mean he didn't even plan out all of his story and character arcs. Honestly I do believe until Kid Boo was introduced Gohan was the strongest unfused character, but then Akira Toriyama back tracked with his characterization and made it so Goku was strongest. Whether you like such bad story telling is up to you, but you honestly can't believe that Toriyama is straightforward can you?

[TheMightyOzaru]

The whole Ssj3 Goku being above characters like Ultimate Gohan thing needs to stop. I don't understand what on Earth makes people think he's so strong, but he isn't. The idea that Gotenks, for whatever reason, has a smaller multiplier for Ssj3 is just absurd. It's completely baseless and bias. Ssj3 is 8 times Ssj and that's that. If Gotenks' power didn't increase that much, he wouldn't be a Ssj3. It's simple.

So your 8x multiplier is Akira Toriyama's word? Please make a decent argument instead of playground logic.

Playground logic? The SEG is clear as day. SSJ2 is 2 times SSJ, and SSJ3 is 4 times SSJ2. That's 8 times SSJ. Basic math sir.

I also have no intention of having a prolonged argument with you since the whole Pure Buu > Super Buu argument was debunked long ago.

[khalildh]

The whole Ssj3 Goku being above characters like Ultimate Gohan thing needs to stop. I don't understand what on Earth makes people think he's so strong, but he isn't. The idea that Gotenks, for whatever reason, has a smaller multiplier for Ssj3 is just absurd. It's completely baseless and bias. Ssj3 is 8 times Ssj and that's that. If Gotenks' power didn't increase that much, he wouldn't be a Ssj3. It's simple.

So your 8x multiplier is Akira Toriyama's word? Please make a decent argument instead of playground logic.

Playground logic? The SEG is clear as day. SSJ2 is 2 times SSJ, and SSJ3 is 4 times SSJ2. That's 8 times SSJ. Basic math sir.

I also have no intention of having a prolonged argument with you since the whole Pure Buu > Super Buu argument was debunked long ago. I don't want a pointless argument.

Thank you for the Non sequitur.

[TheMightyOzaru]

悟空の戦闘力

ラディッツ編: 416
-かめはめ波: 924

サイヤ人 編: 8,000
-界王拳: 16,000
-界王拳x3: 24,000
-界王拳x4: 32,000

ギニュー特戦隊編: 90,000
-界王拳: 180,000
-界王拳x10: 900,000

フリーザ 編: 3,000,000
-界王拳: 6,000,000
-界王拳x10: 30,000,000
-界王拳x20: 60,000,000
-超サイヤ人: 150,000,000

人造人間編: 5,400,000
-超サイヤ人: 270,000,000

セルゲーム編: 50,000,000
-超サイヤ人フルパワー: 2,500,000,000
-瞬間移動かめはめ波: 3,000,000,000

魔人ブウ 編: 80,000,000
-超サイヤ人フルパワー: 4,000,000,000
-超サイヤ人 ツー: 8,000,000,000
-超サイヤ人 スリー: 32,000,000,000

ベジット: 80,000,000,000
-超サイヤ人フルパワー: 4,000,000,000,000

超サイヤ人ゴッド: 50,000,000,000,000

ベジータの戦闘力

サイヤ人 編: 18,000
-ギャリック砲: 24,000

ナメック星人編: 24,000

ギニュー特戦隊編: 30,000

フリーザ 編: 480,000
-全開: 2,400,000

人造人間編: 5,600,000
-超サイヤ人: 280,000,000

セル編: 14,400,000
-超サイヤ人: 720,000,000
-超サイヤ人第2段階: 1,080,000,000

セルゲーム編: 36,000,000
-超サイヤ人フルパワー: 1,800,000,000

魔人ブウ 編: 64,000,000
-超サイヤ人フルパワー: 3,200,000,000
-超サイヤ人 ツー: 6,400,000,000
-魔人: 8,000,000,000

ベジット: 80,000,000,000
-超サイヤ人フルパワー: 4,000,000,000,000

孫 悟飯の戦闘力

ラディッツ編: 2
-怒って: 1,307

サイヤ人 編: 928
-怒って: 2,800

ナメック星人編: 1,400

ギニュー特戦隊編: 14,000

フリーザ 編: 100,000
-全開: 200,000
-怒って: 2,000,000

人造人間編: 3,200,000

セルゲーム編: 60,000,000
-超サイヤ人フルパワー: 3,000,000,000
-超サイヤ人 ツー: 7,500,000,000

魔人ブウ 編: 57,000,000
-超サイヤ人フルパワー: 2,850,000,000
-超サイヤ人 ツー: 5,700,000,000

合体編: 90,000,000
-チョウ: 180,000,000,000