Just read EX's update about no Live-Action Movie!

Kodoshin · Post by **Kodoshin** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:05 am

Goku used the Earth in place of the moon to achieve the Golden Oozaru state.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:11 am

Yes that's true, it was the Earth instead. I just know that Buruma's machine mimicked the amount of "Brutz Waves" that were needed to trigger the change. But now that I think about all this, there's another discrepancy about GT! Now it's looking at the Earth that makes a Saiyajin transform? What the heck is that?!

Kodoshin · Post by **Kodoshin** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:34 am

If you want the full logistics behind it their paper thin reasoning is:

From episode 33's subtitles:

Baby(watching Goku who's just transformed) : "According to Vegeta's memories, this is the metamorphosis into a Great Ape! But he can't turn into a Great Ape unless there's a full moon... "

He then looks over in horror at the Earth "He's using Earth as a substitute for the full moon!"

2 episodes later:

Baby mentions that the Saiya-Jin transform into Great Apes when subjectd to Bruits waves that reach over 17,000 zeno during a full moon.

Bulma mentions that the same wavelength of Bruits waves comes from the Earth.

Of course, this makes little sense when you consider a few situations that occur during the course of the series. But GT just doesen't tend to make much sense anyway.

I mean all those bad guys back from Hell in the Super 17 arc shouldn't even exist anymore. By this point they would of been reincarnated as another being.

B-kun · Post by **B-kun** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:51 am

Well, that depends on your beliefs and such, as much as I hate religious arguments. 'Sides, it was kinda fun watching them bite the dust again. *loved the Goten and Trunks scenes in those eps*

Though Cell using Makankosappou frightened me...

Kodoshin · Post by **Kodoshin** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:59 am

I'm not basing that on any religious beliefs, but rather on what Piccolo told Vegeta would happen to him when he died (Z episode 237). Of course Vegeta had a special exception made for him cause of the events at the time.

Edit: Though I would like to know if what Piccolo says is indeed in manga volume 39 or not, as I cannot read it with my very limited skills.

Edit 2: I found a site with some manga summaries and apparently it is indeed mentioned, the same way it is in the episode.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 7:53 pm

It's a bit inaccurate too to compare Goku "using" the Earth, and Vegeta's use of Bulma's machine. Goku had been unable to beat Baby, and so had the stump of his tail pulled out to it's original length. (because, obviously, the stump that we never, ever, ever saw at all during Z was still there). The idea is that this would give him access to his "real Saiyan powers", or something. Didn't work, and Baby pounded SSJ 3 Goku. He lay there battered, until he looked up at the moon and went ape-shit (ha ha ha! *cough*)

So he was mindless, until the combined power of CONVENIENTLY RETAINED photos, and EXTREMELY MOVING music, enabled him to go SSJ 4. Which was, like, being Golden Oozaru, except normal sized, and ugly. Or something.

After that though, he could go SSJ 4 anytime he wanted. Whereas Vegeta used a machine built by Bulma. And would presumably need it again to transform again (I don't think he does transform more than once, does he)?

Now, you could argue that he's cheating, because Goku turned Oozaru by accident, and then bought it under his own control. But then Vegeta didn't have a moon (or earth) to look at, nor did he have a tail. But then he could have had it pulled out. But then by using the machine he was just cutting out the fluff in the middle.

Although if the only difference between Golden Oozaru and SSJ IV is the ability to be rational, then Vegeta would only need to have his tail pulled out anyway, since he was always rational when Oozaru. Baby-Vegeta can be explained since he never had a tail.

And by explained, I actually mean "It makes no sense whatsoever".

Super Saiyan 4 was really ugly though. You are wrong, Pan. It is not "cool".

B-kun · Post by **B-kun** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:35 pm

I dunno. I like the punk rock-ish look.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:44 pm

No! Ugly!

GT has just come on, actually. The Number One Under the Sun tornament after all the Baby stuff. And a plothole have lept, panther like, to my attention.

Piccolo lets himself be destroyed along with the Earth, so that the Dragonballs will also vanish. That way no more evil people can use them for evil wishes to further their evil ways, right.

Except that Piccolo has nothing to do with the current Earth dragonballs. Dende made them. And, thinking about it, aren't the Dragonballs back a short while later anyway? How does that happen?

Granted, I did fall asleep during some of GT, so the answer is possibly given. Er, if it is, what is it?

Kodoshin · Post by **Kodoshin** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:51 pm

Piccolo Daimao was responsible for the creation of the black star Dragon Balls, the death of the current Piccolo eliminates those Dragon Balls from the world, not the normal set.

So basically, Piccolo died to save us from another "gather the Dragon Balls all around the universe" quest.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:53 pm

I don't recall it ever being given Liam. As for the look of SSJ4, I also agree with you on that. I think it's ridiculous-looking! And people talk about how ridiculous-looking SSJ3 is?! At least it looks somewhat similar to what's going on appearance-wise with SSJ1 and SSJ2. Obviously as the levels go up then, the ridiculous quotient goes up too! Vegita especially looks like an badly aging Van Halen!

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 10:00 pm

So Piccolo sacrificed himself to get rid of the black star balls? Okay.

But...why did they still exist? They were created before PD and Kami split right? So surely they should have stopped working when they did split, since the original being no longer existed? After all, the Kami-created balls turned to stone when he merged with Piccolo.

Except...maybe the black-star ones did turn to stone when Kami split into two, only to return to normal when he remerged with Piccolo. Although that means he kept the rocks around in his back room for all those years, even though he had no intention of ever fusing back with Piccolo Daimo (he'd just split from him, why would he merge with him again)? Plus the fact that the remerged Piccolo/Kami entity isn't the same being as the one that came from Namek originally. Different Piccolo, and everything.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 10:09 pm

I think that the reason Piccolo died to get rid of the black-star dragonballs is because of the fact that once a wish is made, then the Earth will blow-up in a year's time if they're not returned, so that in itself makes them pretty dangerous. Except that I also think that if we're going by proper theory here, they really shouldn't exist. Even if they were still around as stones or proper form after Kami and Piccolo Daimao were formed, common sense dictates that once Kami and Ma Junior merged, then the black-star balls should have turned to stone permanently just like with the regular dragonballs. So congratulations Liam! You've found another major plothole that gets on my nerves and gives me a headache just thinking about!

Kodoshin · Post by **Kodoshin** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 10:11 pm

The fact it's a different Piccolo Daimao, I dont think really mattered, after all Kami survived when Goku killed the "real" Piccolo Daimao cause of the existence of the new one.

As far as it goes though, it's GT so it's probably not worth paying too much mind to.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 10:24 pm

Ya but the thing is, they definitely should have turned to stone when Piccolo Daimao was killed by Goku. It also stands to reason that, Kami, knowing how powerful they are, would then have them destroyed. Which now has reminded me of something else! One doesn't even have to wait until the dragonballs are stone to destroy them. Remember when Gohan, Kuririn, and Vegita were found by the Ginyu Tokusentai, Vegita told Kuririn to smash the dragonball he was holding because it was a better option than letting Freeza have them. Kuririn agreed with it and there was no arguing about it being impossible to do. And before anyone asks, yes, it was also in the manga. So, really Kami could have destroyed those black-star balls at anytime.

Kodoshin · Post by **Kodoshin** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 10:30 pm

Yeah they should of turned to stone then, but when they remerged (even with the different Piccolo) it would stand that they would of turned back to normal.

But yeah it was established well before that even that the balls could be destroyed so them just being left around is rather convenient. But it's GT, it's full of sillyness such as the characters allowing themselves to be captured and explaining their 36 step plan in detail, on how they fooled the bad guy. It's not really worth paying that much mind to it.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 10:32 pm

And!

Shouldn't the regular dragonballs have been destroyed when the Earth BLEW UP during GT?

And I can't remember, but did they use Porunga to wish back anyone who might have been killed during all the Baby hoo-ha?

Kodoshin · Post by **Kodoshin** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 10:48 pm

All that was said was "Afterwards through a wish to the Dragon Balls of planet Namek, the Earth was safely restored"

So we really dont get the specifics of the wish, I wouldn't be surprised though if they didn't think to try revive anyone, the death count Baby caused was very low. He was a pretty clean bad guy.

EDIT: Also the existence of the Dragon Balls, if the earth was restored like it was at the end of Z shouldn't be in question, since the earth balls were used afterall to erase peoples memories of Majin Boo, despite the fact that earth had been destroyed earlier.

laserkid · Post by **laserkid** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:09 pm

Another fun fact: Why did the Dragon Balls suddenly get corrupted anyway? And who gave Shenlong the authority to say they can't be used again.

Kami in DB almost scrapped them because of evil wishes being used but was happy to see Goku's pure thoughts. Wouldn't it stand to reason that if you have a corrupted Shenlong to just have Dende destroy and reform the dragon?

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:15 pm

Stop it, stop it, stop it! I can't take all these plotholes anymore!!!!!!! Aaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!! CURSE YOU GT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:26 pm

Okay, I now loathe GT more than ever before. Damn you, GT... But what really interests me is this:

PsyLiam wrote:SSJ IV

Wow! Roman numerals for SSJ numbers?! I've never seen that before! Woah!

Further contemplating the raw awesomeness of roman numerals in SSJ numbers, I have thought about how "IV" is thought as "before five" in my head. Thus, there is a super saiyan five! There must be! You cannot argue with the system!

Yeah, my brain was fried by all of that GT nonsense.