khalildh wrote:TheGmGoken wrote: I would need to know where you put your Cell Games Goku and Cell to validate the 20x KK argument. A better question to get this on topic is, is who are the people that Base Vegito must be stronger than? In-Universe and lets ignore Gotenks because of all the gag scenes.
It doesn't matter how I scale them because all we have to know is that it takes a higher multiplier than at least 75x to beat Cell. How you think a
KK x20 60 million Goku can rival Perfect Cell(
Who is stronger than a 50x increase SSJ GOKU, and perhaps
75x - 90x USSJ, and needed a
100x SSJ2 Gohan to beat him) is just unbelievable. I'm all for opinions but that's illogical. Vegetto in base "has" to be stronger than Gokhan(Since Elder Kai said the fusion would work better for Goku and Vegeta then Goku and Gohan), SSJ 3 Goku, Gotenks, Super Boo,
CELL, and FREEZA . Him being on Bootenks level isn't out of the picture.
Actually it does matter because if you have Cell games Goku at 5 Million and Boo Saga Goku at 60 Million, 20x KK can mean a lot. Also your relative Gokhan argument is meaningless and subjective. We should be using actual feats and since Vegito has no feats putting him above SSJ3 Goku, Gohan, Super Boo, or Cell I find it illogical that you would suggest that he must be stronger than them.
The main reason why I won't go into detail is because this is NOT a Goku power level topic. If this was I would go into details. As posted on many topics. I'll post on why Gokhan < Vegetto and why Vegetto > The people I listed. Credit to the people I quoted.
Savage68 wrote:
The Old Kai says that Vegetto was so powerful because of Goku and Vegeta's abilities, not because of the Potara. While Kaioshin is wallowing in a pool of his own awe and saying something about how he couldn't believe the Potara's effect was so powerful, the Old Kai basically calls him a fool and says that Vegetto's strength is mostly attributed to Goku & Vegeta, since they're two of the strongest fighters in the universe. So while the Potara is indirectly stated to be stronger than the dance, Vegetto is so much more powerful than Gotenks, even SSJ3 Gotenks, because Goku and Vegeta are individually much more powerful than Goten and Trunks.
Kaboom wrote:While the Potara doesn't require the two people fusing to be similar in power, physique, race, and so forth like the Fusion Dance does, I've adopted an outlook that if the two people ARE more similar, it creates a more complete and thus stronger Fusion.
So Goku and Vegeta ended up so incredibly strong, essentially the ultimate and cited "strongest" Fusion, because of how similar they are.
- They're the same race, pure-blooded Saiyans.
- They're very close in build and physique. Vegeta's a little shorter than Goku, but not by much. They're close enough to use the Fusion Dance, after all.
- Thanks to Bobbidi, they're now practically identical in power. Goku having one up on Vegeta thanks to Super Saiyan 3 may not have mattered, since the Super Saiyan forms are multipliers, and might not "count." They used the Potara in their base forms anyway.
- They share the same mindset of "I'm constantly pushing myself to be the best around." This is how I interpret the oft-talked about "rivals boost."
Compare this to the other Potara Fusions we see or almost see...
- Elder Kaioshin and the old witch. As a Kaioshin, he should be crazy powerful, but the weakly old witch seems to have had a negative effect in that department, greatly reducing his strength. But at the same time, it gave him some of his crazy abilities. The difference in race between them seems to be imbalanced in the Kaioshin side's favor, since for all intents and purposes he still appears to be almost entirely Kaioshin in appearance, just old.
- Goku and Dende. Goku and Dende are about as different as it gets in race and build. Dende's got a decent amount of power to his name, but it's nothing compared to Goku. So the two of them combining would probably barely add any extra power, if any at all. At least Denderot would probably be able to heal himself after getting the tar beaten out of him.
- Goku and Mr. Satan. They're close enough in size, and kind of similar in race, but there's such a HUGE power difference between them that Goku may have even been weakened by the merger.
- Goku and Gohan. This one is often a point of contention. Goku and Gohan are practically the same in build, and very close in race. But there's a big power gap between them now that a Potara Fusion between them might not be optimal. Especially if you take into consideration what I pondered above, about how multiplicative Super Saiyan forms might not "count." If that's the case, then Gohan would have a HUGE lead on Goku, which Goku could only partially or mostly close with a transformation that amplifies his strength by several hundred times. Not an ideal balance of power between them at all.
2012 version I think the power of a Fusion is almost entirely plot-determined. Gotenks ended up as strong as he needed to be, and so did Gogeta. There's also probably a million different things about the fusees that might determine how much power a Fusion between ends up with. Either way, the underlying point is the same: Super Vegetto was far and above the strongest being to appear in the manga. If what other recently-translated material (I already forget what it was) claims is to be taken seriously, he's likely even rivaling the Super Saiyan 4 characters (sans Gogeta, I'd assume) from GT. That's downright outstanding.
RandomGuy96 wrote:This might seem (very) arbitrary, but... I think I have one for my theory.
The multiplier is A + B x whatever percentage of the stronger fusee the weaker fusee is. Let me demonstrate...
Let's say Kaioshin is 2,500,000,000 and Kibito is 70,000,000. 70,000,000 is 2.8% of 2,500,000,000. Therefore the equation would be (2,500,000,000 + 70,000,000) x 2.8, which would be 7,200,000,000 (actually 71,960,000,000 but rounded for simplicity's sake). A nice boost, but nothing that would let him be relevant against Buu.
Let's use an example of someone getting weaker. Say that the original Elder Kaioshin was 3,000,000,000. He fused with a witch that was, say, 300,000. That witch is 0.01% of him. So it'd be (3,000,000,000 + 300,000) x 0.01 = 30,030,000. He went from on the same level as the current East Kaioshin to weaker than base Goku, who knocked him out with a single blast.
Let's use the last example for the full boost; Vegetto. Goku and Vegeta can't stop Gohan-Buu, even with the dance, but they have the potara. Thanks to Babidi, both of these guys are basically equal. If Vegeta and Goku are both 100,000,000 in base, then Vegeta is 100% of Goku. Therefore, that's the multiplier. It goes (100,000,000 + 100,000,000) x 100, which would make base Vegetto 20,000,000,000. He does the Super Saiyan transformation on top of that to become Super Vegetto, with a power level of 1,000,000,000,000, enough to stomp Gohan-Buu.
Let me know if I made a mistake. I usually suck with this.
We also have the hypothetical potaras. Gokule would've been a complete weakling, I don't think I need to say that. But what about Gokan?
It depends on if Goku can be transformed while fusing, and whether or not Gohan's ultimate state is something he powers up into, and not just his base. I'll assume he still has his base form somewhere down there due to BOG and Movie 13. Dbzfan, you have this saga's base Gohan at 75,000,000... 75% of Goku, obviously. So we'll use with that with base Goku's 100,000,000. (100,000,000 + 75,000,000) x 75 = 17,500,000,000. Weaker than Vegetto, yet still strong enough to beat Gohan-Buu, probably just with normal Super Saiyan. Then again, this still isn't enough to beat Buutenks in base, like Old Kaioshin said it would, but perhaps he was thinking that Gokan could use the ultimate state as well...?
Like I said, I interpret the whole meaning of the statement as "they rival each other in power", because I think it's dumb for a pair of magical earrings to just decide "hey, we're going to boost these guys more cause they hate each other".
From Herms:
Gotenks is described as "many tens of times" stronger than Goten/Trunks are on their own in the anime guide Son Goku Densetsu (this is basically the Japanese equivalent of saying they're "dozens of times" stronger, so it's a bit generic and vague). And Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta is described the same way in comparison to a regular Super Saiyan 4 in the GT Perfect Files Vol.2. So there's that. 2011 Eh, no, the site says SSj4 Gogeta is "many tens of times" stronger than SSj4 Goku or Vegeta are on their own. OK, I guess that still probably puts him at less than "Goku x Vegeta", but "SSj4 Goku + SSj4 Vegeta x 5 = SSj4 Gogeta" isn't what the site says.
From MightyOzaru back in February
Ok the SEG states the Vegetto is Goku x Vegeta. Now I don't have a tremendous problem with that but it would seem to me that SSJ4 Gogeta is made out to be the strongest character in the series. SSJ4 Gogeta does not surpass Goku(Buu Saga) x Vegeta(Buu Saga). I was wondering if there was some way to interpret this differently. The SEG states that Vegetto is as great as multiplication and it even says Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto on the side. I kind of want to think that Gogeta runs on a similar idea of the rival boost so I don't have to dumb down Vegetto. I will accept Vegetto being superior if necessary but I want to here some input on this.
From Dario in 2011:
"On p.63 it describes the Potara fusion as being closer to multiplication rather than simple addition in the way it increases power. Supposedly, Vegetto's battle power is equivalent to Goku's battle power multiplied by Vegeta's. Also according to the introduction of the Super Exciting Guide's training section, all the information in it is based on data that was supervised by Toriyama, though we have no idea how extensive this supervision was."
(copied from
http://www.kanzentai.com/bp.php?id=guide#v-jump )
Now I've seen people throw out that theory before but it was never in any official type of book or stated in the manga/anime AFAIK. So I never paid much attention to it and always assumed the Potara was similar to a transformation but with adding power and then having some kind of multiplier. Transformations math works ok since you can set things like SS1 is base X 50, SS2 is base X 100, and SS3 is base X 400 or whatever. The whole thing is with setting those numbers is that it wouldn't matter what the base was as far as comparisons go. The difference between SS1, SS2, and SS3 would always be SS2 = SS1 X 2, and SS3 = SS2 X 4 or in other words if you wanted to match the power output of 1 SS3 Goku you would need 4 SS2 Gokus (just talking total power, not who would win a 4 on 1 Goku fight). However if the Potara of Vegetto was Goku x Vegeta then the comparison of the power can be affected by simply using different measuring systems. So if you guesstimate their power levels with the old style scouter battle power system and the later seen Kiri system you would get different answers. For easy math I'm gonna go with the 1 Kiri = 50,000bp and assume SS Goku and SS Vegeta are at about 1,000,000,000bp or 20,000kiri.
So with Battle Power you would get 1,000,000,000 X 1,000,000,000 which is 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 or to be more to the point you would of course need 1,000,000,000 SS Gokus to equal 1 Vegetto
But with Kiri you only have 20,000 X 20,000 which is 400,000,000 or basically you would only need 20,000 Gokus to equal 1 Vegetto. Still a absurdly large power increase but still 50,000 times less than you would need if using the bp system.
So am I just completely missing something here (I am overtired right now) or does the Potara fusion = power X power just not work?
Sorry if its been discussed before, like I said I haven't been active in a long time.
Edit:
So I thought about it a little more and I guess it could make sense if the conversions are similar to conversions for square yards to square feet. (a yard is 3 feet for those that know) If you have a room thats 5 yards by 5 yards then it is 25 square yards. But if you want to convert that to square feet then it wouldn't be 25x3 but it would be 25x3^2 or 25x3x3 so 225 square feet. I just can't figure out if it would work like that for this comparison or not.
Fox66 from 2011:
Elder Kaioshin: “Idiot, it’s because it was those two that they were able to go so far. Two of the top 3 masters in both the living world and afterlife have merged, after all. What’s more, two rivals have joined together. That’s definitely strongest.”
Would it sound feasible if I say "2/3 top masters boost"? Nevertheless, considering Rou Kaioshin is actually giving merit for Goku and Vegeta, not the Potara, it's hard to believe the fusion is meant to be diferent for Kaioshin and Kibito, or himself and the old witch.
I'll also say that since fusion is a multiplier of the 2 people. There is no way for a SSj3 Goku to be stronger than Vegetto.
A x B = Vegetto
A x 400x = SSJ3 Goku.
Goku(Lets make him 3 million like he was in Freeza. Note I don't think he was 3 million in Boo Arc) x Vegeta (3 million) = 9,000,000,000,000
Goku(3 million again) x 400 = 1,200,000,000
Now compare. Vegetto got a HUGE edge over SSj3 Goku
. I wanted to show him that even a base only multipler would put Base Vegetto above SSj3 Goku
