Freezer = P.Cell ~= 12.000.000 demonstrated with the manga

[freezamite]

Two days ago there was an active thread about "unpopular" theories that got me a bit thrilled because of the people that had a different point of view of this series than myself.

Before anything else, I want this thread to have those rules:
Anyone contradicting my vision about a certain aspect has to:
1. Give reasons based EXCLUSIVELY ON THE MANGA to support their point.
2. Give their vision about that exact same point.


Example:
I: Freezer is 12.000.000 because blah blah blah
Someone else: No, it's at least 15.000.000 because if it was only 12.000.000 then at chapter X page Y...

Let's start this with my estimations on power:
Freezer true form 100%: 12.000.000 <---------- Never seen on the manga!!!
Freezer true form 100% (injured after genkidama and the fight with Goku SSJ while he still was at 50%): 3.050.000
Freezer true form 50%: 6.000.000
Freezer true form 50% (injured after genkidama): 1.500.000
Freezer true form 100% (injured and exhausted): 1.500.000
Goku SSJ namek (injured after fighting against freeza but Infuriated): 3.000.000
Mecha freezer: 900.000 - 1.100.000
Trunks SSJ: 2.800.000

Three years later:

#19: 1.250.000
#20: 2.300.000
Piccolo: 2.550.000
Vegeta SSJ: 3.100.000
#17: 3.250.000
#18: 3.100.000
#16: 3.750.000
picolo + Kami Sama (max): 3.350.000
Cell in ginger town: 2.500.000
Cell 1st form (with people absoved): 3.800.000
Cell 2nd form: 5.700.000
Vegeta: 6.200.000
Trunks: 6.100.000

Cell's Tournament:

Perfect Cell (not his full strength): 10.600.000
Goku SSJ Full power: 10.500.000
Gohan SSJ full power: 10.600.000
Perfect Cell (power released): 12.000.000
Gohan SSJ2: 14.400.000
Super Perfect Cell (after the explosion): unknown

Its pretty similar to a list I posted before but corrected in some parts, now for the argumentation.
There are some KEY POINTS that in my opinion are fundamental to understand this list.

1. A 10% difference in power is DECISIVE TO A POINT WHERE A 1-HIT KILL IS POSSIBLE. This one is basic, I constantly see people that gives a character half the strength of another one only because he lost badly against him. This contradicts the manga blatantly.
Gohan, with a power of only 1307 left Raditz nearly KOed and so injured that he couldn't escape Goku's grab. Considering that Raditz has a BP of 1.200, that's a 9% difference in power compared to Gohan.
That and also Piccolo's final attack at 1320 (the first time he charges it), or Vegeta destroying Dodoria pretty easily (Dodoria was comfortably above the 18.000 Vegeta displayed on earth by how he spoke).
There are cases where Goku fight against much stronger enemies than him (Raditz, for example) but IN EVERY SINGLE CASE THAT THIS HAPPENS, the enemy always confirms that he is "playing" or "giving soft punches" or anything among those lines. Being able to kill someone doesn't mean that you have to do it, actions have to be taken in consideration with their context.

2. Injuries cost energy "PERMANENTLY" to the one being injured as long as he stays injured of course. Although after an impact and due to the harm being inflicted at that exact moment it is possible to lose a lot of energy (to the point where a character can't even stand up), some of that energy is never recovered until the character is healed. The more serious is the injure, the more energy you "permanently" lose.
It's pretty obvious since in every single fight this happens. Vegeta was much stronger when he started to fight than when the fight ended with him being unable to defend event against an also injured (but not that much) Krilin. Radditz couldn't escape Goku's hold because of the energy lost due to Gohan's attack.

3. Goku fought against Freezer using KKx10 SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE MATCH. This could be another discussion thread by itself, but I will try to settle this in this first post.
Firstly, we know about the KK being in use through Kaito and not because Goku or anyone else notices its sudden activation. A KK x10 is a HUGE increase that should at least have an effect in-battle, and we see none of that. Of course, and since KK x10 has not an aura drawn like the other KK, there could be some confusion about this, but there are only two spots where KKx10 could be activated if it had an aura and if it was activated in the middle of the fight:
1st: Chapter 311 page 6


Why it's impossible for the KKx10 to be activated at this point?
Simply because Freezer hasn't powered up a bit compared to when the fight started, and it's precisely at this point where he starts to fight without hands.
To put it in other words: How is it possible that Goku and Freezer fought evenly until that point, Goku suddenly multiplies his strength by 10, and Freezer is still able not only to defend himself as he had planed before Goku's power up but even do it without using his hands?
It simply isn't possible unless we assume a huge mistake from the author's part, which can only be assumed when another explanation is simply not possible. This is not the case as it's obvious from the fact that I'm already giving an alternative explanation to this.

2nd: Chapter 312 page 10

Why it's impossible for the KKx10 to be activated at this point?
Similarly to the other case, but for the opposite reason. At this point Freezer had already powered up, and his hits were enough to totally out-match Goku's KKx10. By that point, Goku had also received some attacks from Freezer, and Freezer didn't know anything about any KK. Considering this, Freezer's hits were directed towards the same enemy (from Freezer's perception) and to have the effect we see on the manga, and considering the 10% rule which has been demonstrated with numbers, Goku would have died at the first hit with a difference that big in power.
So, this time, it's the fact that Goku can survive through Chapter 312 pages 6 to 9 that completely invalidates the possibility of KKx10 being activated at page 10.
That and the fact that the KK aura has always whitewashed eyes for Goku, and this is not the case for this concrete page.

With that said, let's start the power-scaling job with a fact that I more or less assume to make things easy:
Goku's KKx10 was at the same level than Freezer's 25%. Goku's KKx20 was clearly weaker than Freezer's 50%, but that's because he already lost a lot some energy when Freezer was kicking his ass while he was still using KKx10. We also know that Freezer was adjusting his strength not to kill Goku too fast, so even when he lost some energy that hasn't to be too much since the injuries weren't too bad.

So, first comes Goku KKx20 = Freezer 50%
Then Freezer 50% after the Genkidama < Freezer 50%. Of course, since Freezer says "I thought I would die" or "even injured I can kill you" the lost of energy had to be at least considerable. We still don't know how much, but it's obvious that Freezer 50% after the genkidama (AGD) <<<< Freezer 50%.
How much is "<<<<" is something we still can't deduce using the manga alone, but things will come.

Goku SSJ is >>>> Freezer 50% (AGD), although we still don't know by how much at this point.
Later, after receiving some hits by Goku and of course losing a bit more of his strength, Freezer decides to go at 100%, and the match gets even with Goku at the beginning, even a bit in favour of Freezer since Goku loses conciousness for a few seconds after losing against Freezer's technique. But since Freezer's body couldn't resist the use of his maximum strength (due to lack of training, I guess) it eventually got much weaker than Goku SSJ.

All in all, in terms of raw power Goku SSJ is at about the same strength than Freezer 100% AGD. By the way, even when Goku was injured before transforming into a SSJ, he received a "rage power-up" that recharged him completely. We can see a proof of that at chapter 325 when he returns to his base state and not only he is able to fly but also to dodge an attack from Freezer, and latter in the story it's confirmed again with the apparition of Trunks.

So Goku Namek SSJ ~= Freezer 100% (AGD)

Next comes Trunks and Mecha Freezer.
Mecha Freezer says, when he appears, that he had powered up (chapters 329 and 330: "I want to show him how strong I've become" and "with my increased power I could kill him by myself") BUT Gohan says that regarding his actual power:
Yamcha: Was Freezer's power always this huge?
Gohan: This is nothing. He can increase it a lot more.

Of course, Gohan's guess refers to the Freezer he knows. That doesn't mean that this new Freezer has to be able to power up as Gohan says, but for now it's logical to assume that he can, since he already could on namek and he says that now he is stronger.
At this point is when Trunks appears, and transforms into a SSJ.
Gohan mistook him for his father (it's the same ki father had on Namek (chapter 331 page 9)) on Namek, so this also gives us another information:
Trunks SSJ ~= Goku SSJ Namek

Now is when things get a bit complicated. Trunks kills Mecha Freezer, who never powers up, really easily so:
1. Mecha Freezer wasn't as strong as he though he was.
2. Mecha Freezer fought with a small portion of his maximum strength.

Considering how scared he was from the SSJ figure, and that Trunks gave him plenty of time to prepare, it's pretty obvious to me that Mecha Freezer didn't have as much strength as he thought.
Why could he think he was stronger if he wasn't? Well, the first thing that comes to mind is that Mecha Freezer could resist it's 100% without any burden. Since perceptions like the strength or the speed are relative in DB Freezer couldn't know if he got stronger or weaker unless he fought against someone that could put a fight against him before and now, and then compare.
Since the only one able to do that is his father, and it's obvious that they didn't fight while Freezer was in the Mecha form, the mistaken perception of Freezer can be perfectly explained.

Another fact that could confuse him is that he fought in a bad state against Goku on Namek, and while in Mecha he felt recovered. Even if weaker, he in fact felt himself fully recovered and thus much stronger than how he felt when he fought against Goku SSJ.

For how both Mecha Freezer and Cold are described, and by the fact that they react to Trunk's attacks similarly, it can be concluded that Mecha Freezer is at about the same level than transformed King Cold, maybe "a bit" above. Since King Cold was weaker than Freezer, and we know that Freezer at this form had around 1.000.000, his strength should be at around that number at the very best and considering that those forms doesn't scale the user's power proportionally.

After that, Goku appears. He says he hasn't got much time to train and that he used that time learning how to transform into a SSJ at will and a new technique. Then we see a demonstration between Trunks and Goku, but neither of them were serious so it's impossible to conclude anything from that.

That's all for my pre-time skip analysis. Now let's go for the androids.
Sick Goku SSJ is not near what a SSJ has to be, said by Piccolo himself (chapter 341 page 9: He (Goku SSJ sick) should be much stronger than this. After he's changed to a SSJ he should be much, much stronger!). It still surpasses #19 in terms of strength, so Trunks SSJ = Goku SSJ Namek = Freezer 100% (AGD) >>>>>> Goku SSJ (sick) > Android #19
After #19 stoles Goku's Kamehame energy, he is "at full power" (chapter 341 last page: Good! Now number #19 should be at full power), which means that #19 has a limit on how strong he can become absorbing other people's energy.

Vegeta appears as a SSJ and utterly destroys #19. In fact, he is strong to the point Piccolo believes he has surpassed Goku. We can't know at which point Goku's illness started to affect his power even if he didn't feel really bad, but Vegeta SSJ > Goku/Trunks SSJ.
Before killing it, #19 could absorb some of Vegeta's energy. Since we know that #19 has a limit in how strong he can get, we can't deduce how much strength was absorbed, but we do know that Vegeta was WEAKER THAN #20 after that (Chapter 345 page 6: If he (Vegeta) fought #20 just now he would have lost.)
So #20 > Vegeta SSJ (energy sucked) > #19, which means that there's quite a gap between #20 and #19.

As we see latter, Piccolo is also comfortably above #20, so he got fairly close the SSJ level of strength during that 3 year time-skip.

Let's jump to the androids now. We can't know how strong 16 and 17 are, but we do know that 18 has the same brute force than Vegeta SSJ after he recovered his energy with a senzu bean. At chapter 353:
Trunks: He's incredible! I never realized father had gotten this strong! I didn't think he could fight this cyborg on an EVEN level!
Piccolo: Vegeta will be killed.
Trunks & Krilin: Huh?
Piccolo: Look, the cyborg is slowly getting the advantage. She's not loosing any power at all. But Vegeta gets tired as he continues to fight.

So the reason Vegeta loses is that he gets tired, it's like the Freezer (AGD) vs Goku SSJ fight but instead of a fighter losing more strength than what would be normal (freezer), we have a fighter that has infinite amount of energy vs one that has normal amounts of it. All in all, the result is the same, there's a point where despite having an equally big power, the energy lost is so big what was an even match turns into an utter defeat.

Now, there's a page that describes the androids (Chapter 367, the very first page that doesn't even belong to the proper history) and from there it can be deduced that #17 > #18. But since #16 has data of both androids and for how he speaks it seems that this difference is not that big. The fact that #17 is stronger than #18 can also be deduced by how he considers himself to be the strongest one.

Now things start to get really interesting. Cell appears, after absorbing everyone in Ginger City and other minor villages, and he is far weaker than Piccolo fused with Kami which has a bit more power even than #17 (he's strong enough to put a fight with him longer than Vegeta could against #18). But Piccolo wants answers, so he doesn't go full out against Cell since the beginning (he doesn't even take off his training clothes) in terms of delivering deadly attacks.

Cell has to escape, and while he does that, he finds Vegeta. Even when he has the surprise factor among him, he decides not to attack because Vegeta's power as a SSJ is still too big for him, so:
Piccolo Kami >> Vegeta SSJ >>> Cell

Instead, he decides to attack weak humans in large cities to become stronger.
It's at this point that we CAN FINALLY DEDUCE IN UNITS HOW MANY STRENGTH THOSE CHARACTERS HAVE.

Cell absorbs, literally, hundreds of thousands of humans. Hundreds of thousands can go from 200.000 to 800.000 (more than that would probably be expressed as "almost a million"), so let's assume that Cell absorbs 500.000 people between the fights he has against piccolo (and he had already absorbed a lot of people by that point).
We know that an adult male human being that works as a farmer (so he realizes a pretty physical work that of course trains his body even if indirectly) has 5 units. Since Cell attacks cities, not only the men are weaker in general due to having less physically intensive works (let's say they average 4 units) but also there are women, children and old people who of course are much weaker than that.
Even being generous, 2.5 units of energy obtained per human is the maximum average I can think of (for each adult male with 4 there are at leas 1 adult woman, 1 old man, 1 old woman, 1 girl and 1 boy. And of course, the % of ill or injured people who of course were weakened compared to how they would be normally).

So, with an increase of around 1.250.000 Cell went from being much weaker than Vegeta SSJ to being so much stronger than Kami-Piccolo that he could kill him even without trying.
In terms of %, he went from at least 15% lower than Piccolo to 20-25% higher. Even taking the minimum range of -15% to +20%, that's 1.250.000 representing 30% of Kami Piccolo's strength, or in other words, Piccolo Kami being at around 3.500.000. I think that he really is a bit lower than that due to those numbers being fairly generous (2.5 as the average energy absorbed for human, taking the "hundreds of thousands" of humans affirmation with the higher range of what "hundreds of thousands" can mean, etc. etc.), so I put him at around 3.350.000.
From here and from what has been said, we can grab the general scheme it has been painted with the power-scaling and deduce everyone's power.

Now from here on it's a bit of speculation, until Perfect Cell. As long as we respect the fact that a 10% difference can be a 1 Hit Kill if there's intention to kill and all the force behind the hit, any energy level is possible for Cell 2nd form, super-Vegeta and super-Trunks.
The numbers I give them are an example of perfectly valid power levels that doesn't contradict the manga, but they of course can vary a bit between readers as long as the facts of the manga are respected.

But... why do I give Cell the same power than Freezer then?
Well, we know that Cell is a combination of the best of the best of every Cell that formed him. So why not give him the same power as the strongest being that formed him? He in fact had the same techniques and abilities than the ones that were part of him, not better ones like "ultra-kamehame instead of Kamehame".
All in all, to get to those 12.000.000 I use power scaling based on Freezer. Freezer could utterly defeat Vegeta and even beat Vegeta's best technique with pure brute strength (when he repels Vegeta's best energy blast with a simple kick) and we know that Vegeta was far above the 1.000.000 at that point, so around 3.000.000 for Freezer's true form at that point seems a pretty accurate guess in my opinion.
From here, Freezer 50% at 6.000.000 and Freezer 100% at 12.000.000.

DIRECT SOURCES OUTSIDE THE MANGA:
There's 1 last thing that confirms this energy list and that is an interview with Akira Toriyama, on DB's super exciting guide. In that interview, Toriyama himself says that although Goku SSJ being 50x stronger was what most of people understood, he drew the manga with the sense of it being a 10x increase.
This interview is traduced by Herms of this same page, and can be found on this site.

This "basic SSJ" equals to Goku's KKx10 basically confirms every single number that can also be found reading the manga, which means that Akira Toriyama effectively drew it just how he says, with Goku SSJ being as strong as Goku KKx10 (on Namek).

Now, let's the discussion begin...

[The Monkey King]

Go away. You are factually wrong. I've seen you post this bullshit on multiple forums. Why do you have such a hard on for Freeza anyway? Just accept you're wrong, no one will believe your dumb fan fiction and stop posting.

[KentalSSJ6]

100% Freeza is 120 million. Was shown and confirmed in the Daizenshuus and nothing will change that. Fan material does not compare and holds no ground next to official material. Continuing to argue about this will not end well in your favor.

[freezamite]

Go away. You are factually wrong. I've seen you post this bullshit on multiple forums. Why do you have such a hard on for Freeza anyway? Just accept you're wrong, no one will believe your dumb fan fiction and stop posting.

You've seen that where? This "bullshit" is 100% taken from the manga, and even the author has confirmed it with his own words. It can be discussed and even debated, of course, but if I were you I would try to demonstrate what is wrong instead of simply insulting. I mean, it's obvious that you can't do much more than what you've done here, but at least you could try...

100% Freeza is 120 million. Was shown and confirmed in the Daizenshuus and nothing will change that. Fan material does not compare and holds no ground next to official material. Continuing to argue about this will not end well in your favor.

Yes, and Raditz is 1500 and that's why he got nearly killed by Gohan in 1 hit, because... oh wait, it seems that those "official guides" are as official as the anime filler (100% official, 0% credible).
Do you know that post-Namek Goku can't even lift a bus full of people by his own, and needs Piccolo's help to do it? Hey, it's OFFICIAL, I've seen it on the anime... LOL

Nappa at 4.000, Goku SSJ at 150.000.000... it's not what I would call a "legit" source...

[TheMightyOzaru]

Can you like not... please?

[TheGmGoken]

Go away. You are factually wrong. I've seen you post this bullshit on multiple forums. Why do you have such a hard on for Freeza anyway? Just accept you're wrong, no one will believe your dumb fan fiction and stop posting.

This. I've seen this as well. No way in hell Freeza = Perfect Cell. I'm sorry if this is rude. But Freeza being equal to Cell is so illogical that only a Freeza fanboy would think of it. I'm sorry once again but it's been stated and proven many times that Freeza < Cyborgs < CELL. Did you IGNORE THE DAIZENSHUU? Not saying Daizenshuu is the holy book of DBZ and I'm certainly not saying that everything in there is accurate and should be used. But this is not contradicted.

[KentalSSJ6]

In terms of power levels, you dont have to be dead even or higher than the opponents power level to damage them. Raditz had a 2-300 lead on Gohan when he took the hit and was still standing.

Goku despite having a 30 million lead on Freeza when in SSJ still took a few hits.

Look dude, its your opinion and thats fine, but dont try to pass it off as the official material given to us and that the majority of us all agree on. This argument is over.

Now if Vegito or a member of the cleanup crew could lock this thread down that would be appreciated.

[freezamite]

Go away. You are factually wrong. I've seen you post this bullshit on multiple forums. Why do you have such a hard on for Freeza anyway? Just accept you're wrong, no one will believe your dumb fan fiction and stop posting.

This. I've seen this as well. No way in hell Freeza = Perfect Cell. I'm sorry if this is rude. But Freeza being equal to Cell is so illogical that only a Freeza fanboy would think of it. I'm sorry once again but it's been stated and proven many times that Freeza < Cyborgs < CELL. Did you IGNORE THE DAIZENSHUU? Not saying Daizenshuu is the holy book of DBZ and I'm certainly not saying that everything in there is accurate and should be used. But this is not contradicted.

This is not contradicted you say??? IT'S BEEN CONTRADICTED BY AKIRA TORIYAMA HIMSELF!!!
That being said, I don't need Akira Toriyama to contradict that pile of shit, I mean:
Raditz at 1500 is plainly impossible.
Nappa at 4000 its equally impossible.
They do the simplest power scaling with Freezer without even taking into account the energy lost by each injury.
The difference between Goku SSJ and Freezer is so big that doesn't make the least of senses.
In fact, nearly every single number given there can be factually contradicted.

In terms of power levels, you dont have to be dead even or higher than the opponents power level to damage them. Raditz had a 2-300 lead on Gohan when he took the hit and was still standing.

Goku despite having a 30 million lead on Freeza when in SSJ still took a few hits.

Yes, and Nappa with 4000 fought evenly with goku at 8000+
No, it's not that the manga is that crazy, it's just that the guide you're using doesn't make even the slightest sense at all!!!!

Its a bit sad when EVEN THE AUTHOR'S WORD is considered "bullshit" by some "fans" that put their favourite characters over the consolidated facts of the manga.
Do you say I'm a "freezer fan" because of that? I think that I see some Freezer haters around here...

[khalildh]

Goken, Kental, Monkey King, and Oozaru

Can you leave this thread, your bad attempts at trolling the OP aren't good. Instead of tl;dr maybe you should read the post and then defend your own viewpoint instead of acting as if everything that you think is gospel.

While I do not agree with most of the arguments made in the OP it is still interesting to speculate about.

[Darkprince410]

The topic was locked before you had a chance to comment on it, but Piccolo does comment about Goku's strength increasing after Freeza started using 50% of his full power but before Goku attempted the 20x Kaiou-ken.

Chapter: 312 (DBZ 118), P13.2
Context: as Freeza beats up on Goku
Piccolo: “Th-this is bad…There’s too much of a gap between the power they were hiding…”

Now obviously Piccolo isn't aware of Freeza only being at half strength or Goku still having the 20x Kaiou-ken in reserve, but this statement indicates that both of them powered up a good deal from earlier when they were "warming up". If Goku was using the 10x Kaiou-ken from the get go as you believe, then why would Piccolo indicate that Goku's power has risen?

As for feeling that Goku shouldn't have been able to take the beatings he did when Kaiou-ken was down, he's been shown many times in the past to be able to take poundings from enemies stronger than him but manage to survive it through his amazing stamina reserves. Freeza was wanting for him to suffer, and would have been able to gauge by Goku's actions how powerful he was at the time. If he wasn't moving as fast as before, then logically he wouldn't be as strong as before, and vice versa. Even without being able to sense ki, he'd know that his blows were doing damage to Goku and that his strength would be decreasing quickly, so he'd be able to hold back his blows appropriately.

In regards to what you mentioned in the old topic with him not caring about a 10x increase, but suddenly "caring" about a 2x increase from that, while I didn't understand what you were meaning by noticing it, I can say that Goku at 10x Kaiou-ken was still a considerably enough gap from him for him to care about it, but a 2x increase from there was enough because it put him within range to be able to do damage to Freeza, even if it wasn't considerable.

[TheGmGoken]

Its a bit sad when EVEN THE AUTHOR'S WORD is considered "bullshit" by some "fans" that put their favourite characters over the consolidated facts of the manga.
Do you say I'm a "freezer fan" because of that? I think that I see some Freezer haters around here...

Tell me when the Author said Freeza was 12 million. Tell me when we said Toriyama was "bullshit"? How are we Freeza haters?

I'm actually have Freeza as one of my favorite villains

This is like...pointless. I'm done.

[KentalSSJ6]

Yeah, this is a waste of time. Gonna take a page from dbzfan with this one.

[TheGmGoken]

Yeah, this is a waste of time. Gonna take a page from dbzfan with this one.

Spoiler:

Sorry for being "Off Topic" but DBZFAN did not make that

[freezamite]

The topic was locked before you had a chance to comment on it, but Piccolo does comment about Goku's strength increasing after Freeza started using 50% of his full power but before Goku attempted the 20x Kaiou-ken.

Chapter: 312 (DBZ 118), P13.2
Context: as Freeza beats up on Goku
Piccolo: “Th-this is bad…There’s too much of a gap between the power they were hiding…”

Now obviously Piccolo isn't aware of Freeza only being at half strength or Goku still having the 20x Kaiou-ken in reserve, but this statement indicates that both of them powered up a good deal from earlier when they were "warming up". If Goku was using the 10x Kaiou-ken from the get go as you believe, then why would Piccolo indicate that Goku's power has risen?

I read that, and it was as you say locked before I could answer to it.
Firstly, and considering how much of an impact a 10% increase in energy makes, I don't think that his "hidden energy" was the KKx10, but rather that he was fighting with KKx10 but without using all his energy. Freezer could perfectly be at 2.500.000 and goku fighting with 250.000 times 10 instead of 300.000 times 10.

But again, I don't think a 10x increase in the circumstances is supposedly done, it's coherent with what happens for the reasons I give. The points where those power ups could happen (an aura resembling the one of the KK appears) have really big problems of coherence to me with the action that takes place.

Tell me when the Author said Freeza was 12 million. Tell me when we said Toriyama was "bullshit"? How are we Freeza haters?

Had you read the OP instead of trolling, you would know what the author said and why you called bullshit to that as it was part of my reasoning.
Try again next time LOL

[Darkprince410]

The topic was locked before you had a chance to comment on it, but Piccolo does comment about Goku's strength increasing after Freeza started using 50% of his full power but before Goku attempted the 20x Kaiou-ken.

Chapter: 312 (DBZ 118), P13.2
Context: as Freeza beats up on Goku
Piccolo: “Th-this is bad…There’s too much of a gap between the power they were hiding…”

Now obviously Piccolo isn't aware of Freeza only being at half strength or Goku still having the 20x Kaiou-ken in reserve, but this statement indicates that both of them powered up a good deal from earlier when they were "warming up". If Goku was using the 10x Kaiou-ken from the get go as you believe, then why would Piccolo indicate that Goku's power has risen?

I read that, and it was as you say locked before I could answer to it.
Firstly, and considering how much of an impact a 10% increase in energy makes, I don't think that his "hidden energy" was the KKx10, but rather that he was fighting with KKx10 but without using all his energy. Freezer could perfectly be at 2.500.000 and goku fighting with 250.000 times 10 instead of 300.000 times 10.

But again, I don't think a 10x increase in the circumstances is supposedly done, it's coherent with what happens for the reasons I give. The points where those power ups could happen (an aura resembling the one of the KK appears) have really big problems of coherence to me with the action that takes place.

That doesn't work, since everything we've seen before indicates that Kaiou-ken goes off the maximum battle power of the user, and not any suppressed strength they've got.

As for you having problems with the instances where Goku would be using 10x Kaiou-ken with the aura (though I personally don't find them to be problems at all), remember that Freeza wasn't wanting to kill him, that he could gauge just by how he was moving and the blows he was trying to throw just how much weaker he was getting (and obviously would be able to compensate) and that Goku has been shown time and again to be able to continue fighting even after his body has been bruised, battered, and practically destroyed in the past, thanks to his incredible reserves of stamina. Him being able to take a hit when not in Kaiou-ken 10x with Freeza at 50% full power wouldn't be out of character, given both Freeza not wanting to quickly kill him and Goku's ability to take hits.

Personally I have far more of an issue with the notion of him only being at 300,000 instead of the 3,000,000 that the Daizenshuu indicates. There's nothing I see in the manga that suggests that he was using the Kaiou-ken at any point prior to Freeza jumping to 50%, because Toriyama draws auras there for a reason, and we don't see any signs of those during their initial, dead-even fighting.

As for not liking the Daizenshuu numbers, might I ask why? You pointed out Raditz and Nappa's battle powers, but truthfully those numbers aren't exactly wrong. Raditz wasn't anywhere near getting killed by that head butt, and part of the reason that it did so much damage to him was because it caught him off guard. He had no time to react to it, and took the brunt of the hit square in the chest. If Raditz were only in the 1,200 range, then it would have almost certainly killed him. Secondly, the Saibamen being compared to him. All that's mentioned in their comparison is that their battle power rivals his. It doesn't mean that it matches his, just that it's close to his, and a narrow gap like that would certainly be conceivable as narrow.

With Nappa, I've mentioned that I feel that 4,000 was his base strength that he went around with normally, and that he could go higher if he wanted/needed to (in order to match Goku's 8,000 for example) but in most situations he stuck to 4,000.

Even if you don't agree with the specific numbers, there's no reason to dismiss the ranges given when there's nothing really in the manga suggesting that they're vastly different.

[SaiyaJedi]

Not to butt in to this witty and learned discussion, but you folks do realize that Freeza's "100% power" is actually listed at 120 million, right? (By comparison, Super Saiyan Goku is shown as 150 million in the same guidebook scan.) Even the original poster is underestimating his power by a factor of ten.

Not gonna take sides here, though. In fact, I'm inclined to lock unless everybody in this thread can take a step back and realize that they're at each other's throats over cartoons.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Goku only started using Kaio-Ken x10 after Freeza upped his power to 50%.

Krillin commented on Goku's power as if he powered-up to the point where his Chi was significantly different than before. There's also Goku stating how excited and scared he is at his new power--and how it couldn't have come at a better time than now. Just a few chapters ago, Goku thought he wouldn't have been strong enough to defeat 3rd form Freeza even if he fully healed. That's quite a change in attitude between Freeza's transformations. Way I see it, Goku's new power put him at a level comfortably stronger than both Piccolo and Vegeta. I don't think it makes any sense for Goku to be weaker than Vegeta if we go by his dialogue in the Manga, as we see Vegeta mention that Goku has overcome his limits reached a new level of power. And I'm just talking about Goku's normal power.

Overall, Freeza was still more powerful, but Goku's huge increase put him at a level where he could fight on-par with Freeza and deflect his beams, which seemed to be impossible beforehand. With that, I think we can conclude that Goku is well above 1 million after powering-up.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Not to butt in to this witty and learned discussion, but you folks do realize that Freeza's "100% power" is actually listed at 120 million, right? (By comparison, Super Saiyan Goku is shown as 150 million in the same guidebook scan.) Even the original poster is underestimating his power by a factor of ten.

Not gonna take sides here, though. In fact, I'm inclined to lock unless everybody in this thread can take a step back and realize that they're at each other's throats over cartoons.

Freezamite is under the impression that the guide books, for whatever reason, are wrong.

Mecha freezer: 900.000 - 1.100.000
Vegeta SSJ: 3.100.000

*cracks knuckles* Lets begin. Mecha Freeza is outright stated to be stronger than Freeza. Toriyama himself also came out and said SSJ is a times 50 boost. Vegeta became stronger than Piccolo after his Zenkai. That would put his power level well over 1,000,000. This would mean SSJ Vegeta would be well over 50,000,000 if he were to go SSJ while on Namek. Sorry but your logic is not only misguided but just straight wrong.

[KentalSSJ6]

Not to butt in to this witty and learned discussion, but you folks do realize that Freeza's "100% power" is actually listed at 120 million, right? (By comparison, Super Saiyan Goku is shown as 150 million in the same guidebook scan.) Even the original poster is underestimating his power by a factor of ten.

Not gonna take sides here, though. In fact, I'm inclined to lock unless everybody in this thread can take a step back and realize that they're at each other's throats over cartoons.

Please lock it indeed. This thread is going nowhere.

[khalildh]

Not to butt in to this witty and learned discussion, but you folks do realize that Freeza's "100% power" is actually listed at 120 million, right? (By comparison, Super Saiyan Goku is shown as 150 million in the same guidebook scan.) Even the original poster is underestimating his power by a factor of ten.

Not gonna take sides here, though. In fact, I'm inclined to lock unless everybody in this thread can take a step back and realize that they're at each other's throats over cartoons.

Please lock it indeed. This thread is going nowhere.

Posts like these are completely irrelevant, if you do not want to participate in the discussion then no one is forcing you too.