But if we use the formula with kiri numbers, Vegetto ends up weaker. Doesn't make sense.
And saying "it multiplies ki" is wrong, stop saying it. Ki is not a number. You can't multiply 2 ki, like you can't multiply 2 doors.
How strong is Base Vegetto?
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: How strong is Base Vegetto?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: How strong is Base Vegetto?
True but if you are trying to put a number to Vegetto's strength then you do use the bp or kiri numbers. And if you do that you could end up with much different levels of power unless you start using bp^2 or kiri^2. And how do you compare those to bp or kiri? In any case I don't go with it being literally AxB. It isn't necessary and I think the description was just a loose description like Goten + Trunks = Gotenks.TheMightyOzaru wrote:Battle powers are just measurements of power. The Potara doesn't read anything. It just multiplies the 2 Kis together.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:How are they unreliable? And how can the Potara even read battle powers like the scouters do? How can the Potara (magical earrings created by the top gods millions of years ago) and the scouters (artificial devices created by random aliens less than a thousand years ago) even be related?
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TheMightyOzaru
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Re: How strong is Base Vegetto?
Tis why I don't find the Kiri system reliable in a straight forward sense. Kiris for all we know could be measured exponentially or something.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:But if we use the formula with kiri numbers, Vegetto ends up weaker. Doesn't make sense.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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Re: How strong is Base Vegetto?
Yeah it could, but we don't know anything about the battle power system either. How does a bp of ~139 let you blow up the moon when a farmer with a shotgun has a battle power of 5? I'm pretty sure 28 shotguns duct taped together wouldn't destroy the moon, even in DB.TheMightyOzaru wrote:Tis why I don't find the Kiri system reliable in a straight forward sense. Kiris for all we know could be measured exponentially or something.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:But if we use the formula with kiri numbers, Vegetto ends up weaker. Doesn't make sense.
Re: How strong is Base Vegetto?
Scouter levels could be measured exponentially also... Your argument is very biased.TheMightyOzaru wrote:Tis why I don't find the Kiri system reliable in a straight forward sense. Kiris for all we know could be measured exponentially or something.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:But if we use the formula with kiri numbers, Vegetto ends up weaker. Doesn't make sense.
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TheMightyOzaru
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Re: How strong is Base Vegetto?
The problem with Kiris is if 2 powers are multiplied together, the result is different than if the 2 battle powers were multiplied. The same cannot be said for battle power to Kiris. For example. Lets say 100 Kiris is worth a BP of 1,000.khalildh wrote:Scouter levels could be measured exponentially also... Your argument is very biased.TheMightyOzaru wrote:Tis why I don't find the Kiri system reliable in a straight forward sense. Kiris for all we know could be measured exponentially or something.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:But if we use the formula with kiri numbers, Vegetto ends up weaker. Doesn't make sense.
100 x 100 = 10,000 Kiris
1,000 x 1,000 = 1,000,000 BP
If we do the math the Kiris are off by a factor of 10. If we convert the BP to Kiri, it's a solid system that remains consistent.
1,000 x 1,000 = 1,000,000 -> 100,000 Kiris.
Battle powers are not a system that have specific values tailored to a certain number. 1 = 1 in the battle system while 1 = 10 on the Kiri system.
Last edited by TheMightyOzaru on Sat Nov 16, 2013 3:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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Re: How strong is Base Vegetto?
TheMightyOzaru wrote:I simply don't work with Kiris, I work with Battle Powers. Measuring fusion in Kiris and converting them to Battle Power sharply reduces the number.khalildh wrote:
Scouter levels could be measured exponentially also... Your argument is very biased.
Which should prove that a x b = c must be false.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: How strong is Base Vegetto?
Exactly. Battle powers, kiri, etc, are metaphorical numbers to measure ki, they are not ki. BP & kiri are like kilos & tons. Whatever formula exists, it should be applied to both BP & kiri numbers.khalildh wrote:TheMightyOzaru wrote:I simply don't work with Kiris, I work with Battle Powers. Measuring fusion in Kiris and converting them to Battle Power sharply reduces the number.khalildh wrote:
Scouter levels could be measured exponentially also... Your argument is very biased.
Which should prove that a x b = c must be false.
Same here. They are just saying that Goku & Vegeta make Vegetto IMO.dario3 wrote:In any case I don't go with it being literally AxB. It isn't necessary and I think the description was just a loose description like Goten + Trunks = Gotenks.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: How strong is Base Vegetto?
SEG says that Potara is more like a multiplication, not literally a multiplication. So we have to assume that it's the result that appears as if the powers were multiplied (and since "battle power" is used in the context, that's what we use), while the actual formula is different.
Also there's no reason whatsoever to assume that Kiri works differently from Battle Power. 1 Kiri should correspond to x BP. A SS would have 50 times more Kiri than in base form.
Also there's no reason whatsoever to assume that Kiri works differently from Battle Power. 1 Kiri should correspond to x BP. A SS would have 50 times more Kiri than in base form.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: How strong is Base Vegetto?
You mean we could assume this, since it's an optional interpretation, not a fact.hleV wrote:SEG says that Potara is more like a multiplication, not literally a multiplication. So we have to assume that it's the result that appears as if the powers were multiplied (and since "battle power" is used in the context, that's what we use), while the actual formula is different.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: How strong is Base Vegetto?
Why would anyone assume that Potara calculates two fusees' BP (or other kind of power) and multiplies it?
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: How strong is Base Vegetto?
I don't mean that, I've already shown why this logic is flawed. I'm saying that the "Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto" could just mean that Goku & Vegeta make Vegetto (with "x" meaning "cross"), like the "Goten + Trunks = Gotenks" means that Goten & Trunks make Gotenks, and not that Goten's BP plus Trunks' BP is equal to Gotenks' BP, since it says in the same page that Gotenks is dozens of times stronger than Goten or Trunks.hleV wrote:Why would anyone assume that Potara calculates two fusees' BP (or other kind of power) and multiplies it?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: How strong is Base Vegetto?
I wasn't even talking about Goku x Vegeta, so I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: How strong is Base Vegetto?
Weren't you saying that Vegetto's battle power happened to be equal to Goku's BP x Vegeta's BP?hleV wrote:I wasn't even talking about Goku x Vegeta, so I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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TheGmGoken
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Re: How strong is Base Vegetto?
They're not. They combine the two ki into great power. How does SSJ know to multiply ki by 50x? It's the same thing with Potara. They just multiply the two people's energy into one body.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:And now I ask: If A x B = C is truly supposed to be Vegetto's formula, how exactly do the Potara read Goku's & Vegeta's battle power (and I'm talking about exact BP numbers, exactly like the scouter does) to multiply them, when the Potara exist years before the battle power numbers existed? How can the Potara be related with the scouters?
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: How strong is Base Vegetto?
The form/technique multipliers are different. These are set multipliers that have a stable increase. The "A x B = C" formula however isn't that. It's "1.748.819.384 x 1.874.842.450 = 3.278.760.818.506.050.800". This doesn't make sense.TheGmGoken wrote:They combine the two ki into great power. How does SSJ know to multiply ki by 50x? It's the same thing with Potara. They just multiply the two people's energy into one body.
Let's use the SS multiplier & the Potara "formula" with both BPs & kiri, and let's assume that 50.000 BP = 1 kiri.
Goku/Vegeta = 100.000 BP = 2 kiri
Vegetto = 100.000 BP x 100.000 BP = 10.000.000.000 BP = 200.000 kiri
Vegetto = 2 kiri X 2 kiri = 4 kiri = 200.000 BP
SS Goku = 100.000 BP x 50 = 5.000.000 BP = 100 kiri
SS Goku = 2 kiri X 50 = 100 kiri = 5.000.000 BP
See? This formula is flawed. Also, the SS multipliers are increases, not only multiplications. We have a set amount of power, and it adds 50 times greater power. We can multiply a table by 50, which will give us 50 tables, but we can't multiply a table with a table. The form/technique multipliers make sense, but this doesn't.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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TheMightyOzaru
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Re: How strong is Base Vegetto?
The formula is flawed because Kiris themselves are flawed. Giving a value to a specific number can really mess with the conversion. Battle Power is more reliable because 1 = 1, while in the Kiri system 1 = 10.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: How strong is Base Vegetto?
The kiri measurement is not flawed at all. Kiri for Battle Powers is exactly what tons are for kilos, what cm are to mm, what minutes are to hours, etc. The formula is what is flawed.TheMightyOzaru wrote:The formula is flawed because Kiris themselves are flawed. Giving a value to a specific number can really mess with the conversion. Battle Power is more reliable because 1 = 1, while in the Kiri system 1 = 10.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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goku the krump dancer
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Re: How strong is Base Vegetto?
Is that stated some where or something you're just assuming?DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Kiri for Battle Powers is exactly what tons are for kilos, what cm are to mm, what minutes are to hours, etc.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: How strong is Base Vegetto?
It is stated that 1 kiri is equal to 50.000 BP units.goku the krump dancer wrote:Is that stated some where or something you're just assuming?DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Kiri for Battle Powers is exactly what tons are for kilos, what cm are to mm, what minutes are to hours, etc.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.