Question about "hardcore" anime fans opinion on DBZ dub

[90sDBZ]

Might be a question of perspective, but to me, there are fans of the series and fans of the dub. Much like AjayLikesGaming, I can't consider anyone a fan of the actual series if they don't at least respect the source material.

And this at 1:11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEzUQfyVoQM

The rest of the video is pretty much the polar opposite of the specific piece you're pointing at. Especially 0:00, 5:43, and 13:55, which were used extensively throughout the series as opposed to the track you mentioned that never saw light outside the movie. And your questioning the use of the Japanese Subtitle I/II bridge for dark-sounding titles is essentially the same thing as questioning the use of the US Broadcast Title Card music for titles like "He's Always Late" or "Celebrations with Majin Buu". Which do you feel waters the series down more? Spelling things out in the title, or adding dialogue into the actual series to either make a joke about burnt toast or point out something obvious? Not to mention I rarely see any liveliness or excitement in any of the dub episode titles. Yes, the original titles are over-the-top, camp, and sometimes contain spoilers, but that's already more or less the gist of Dragon Ball; it doesn't take itself too seriously.

I do respect the original. Hell I still watch the movies in Japanese every now and then and have seen all the major battles in Z in Japanese and often set the voices on my DBZ games to Japanese just for variation. I even like Nozawa's Goku. And I watch Kai. I just happen to like the Funi Z dub more and am pointing out what I believe to be drawbacks of the original version that I feel were improved on in the Funi Z dub.

As for what you said about most of the score not being like that it's true but when you do get scenes with that sort of music playing they tend to stick out like a sore thumb as they're so inconsistent with the rest of the movie. And while the Funi title card theme also sometimes feels out place it isn't as bad as having happy music play when we're dealing with the end of the world or the death of one of our heroes. That just seems in poor taste to celebrate.

You say Dragonball doesn't take itself too seriously so what's the problem with Funi adding some comic relief with the occasional corny joke? It's still very much in line with the tone of the show. And you mentioned that the dub points out the obvious. If anything I'd say the Japanese version is more guilty of this like how they constantly remind us of plot points like the fact that it's been a year since the battle on Namek or 5 years since the battle with Piccolo or whatever.

[TheGmGoken]

Both are cheesey. I'm fine with something being cheesey but not to the point of it being cringeworthy.

. The Gohan was meant to be cheesy and goofy. Which is why it's a bad example. It's like saying a PURPOSELY corny joke in a cartoon is not funny when it was not meant to be funny. he movie 3 soundtrack is not even cheesy. It's wonderful. How is it chessy and don't fit? Please explain.

[Gogeta 00]

I don't see what's wrong with penguintruth's logic. It would be exactly the same if Viz made up dialog and re-wrote character intentions throughout the manga. They generally didn't, but it went there a few times, and we've certainly called them out on it when they did/do.

If your viewpoint is that they are responsible for accurately portraying the product they've licensed, then there you go. Just because Toei took liberties with their product doesn't somehow give a "get out of jail free" card to the foreign-language adaptation companies.

And if you say it does, the only logic you've provided in defense of it is... well... I haven't actually seen any real logic in defense of it, just a red herring "LOOK OVER THERE AT TOEI! (please leave my dub alone, please leave my dub alone)~!!!"

With all due respect I think that you and penguintruth are both guilty of committing two logical fallacies in your response to the point which you are addressing; namely the fallacies of missing the point and the straw man fallacy. Furthermore I think that your charge of the red herring fallacy is unjustified and results from your having committed the fallacy of missing the point. I think that Kid Buu actually does bring out a legitimate problem for penguintruth's argument. Before I proceed with my explanation I would like to make a few points.

First, I am responding to your comment without having read past this page in the thread so I am at the moment ignorant to the way this discussion has progressed, so if any of this has been brought up already or the discussion has been resolved I apologize.

Second, I am not providing a defense of Kid Buu's point so as to disagree with you and penguintruth. In general I agree with your position, although for different reasons. I think that it is quite clear that a fan of the dub and a fan of the original are not fans of the same story. What a dub fan is a fan of, to whatever degree, is indeed a version of a story that does not at all reflect the intrinsic artistic value of the story itself. However I find the issue brought up by Kid Buu to be legitimate and potentially crippling to penguintruth's argument, hopefully I will be able to present an adequate explanation of why this is the case.

Third, it is entirely possible that I am not correct in my interpretation of what Kid Buu's intentions are and if I am not then I apologize. Nonetheless I hope that the interpretation of Kid Buu's point which I provide, whether an accurate interpretation of what he personally meant to express or not, will help to shed some light on what I take to be the fallacy in penguintruth's reasoning.

Finally, Kid Buu as an individual is responsible for presenting his points as clearly as possible, and the condescending and rhetorical way in which he has done so does not lend itself particularly well to clarity, so Kid Buu may be just as responsible for any misunderstandings as either of you are. I will strive to be as clear and fair as possible and I hope that I don't come off as condescending since that is not my intent at all.

With the formalities out of the way I would like to first explain what I take penguintruth's argument to be and what I take Kid Buu's response to be. If I have unfairly represented either of you then I apologize. Penguintruth's reasoning hinges upon the following premise:

"If a person is a fan of a version of Dragon Ball which includes changes which radically undermine the author's original story, then they are not a fan of Dragon Ball."

There is little evidence that can be provided in support of this premise but there is certainly something intuitively compelling about it. If two versions of a thing are radically different then how could we honestly say that a person who is a fan of one version is a fan of the same thing as a person who is a fan of the other version? It certainly makes good sense to say that they are not and thus I think that it is reasonable to concede the truth of penguintruth's premise.

From this premise and the additional premise "the dub is a version of Dragon Ball which includes changes which radically undermine the author's original story" (a premise which I think that we can safely admit the truth of) penguintruth's conclusion that "a fan of the dub of Dragon Ball is not a fan of Dragon Ball" does logically follow (by way of the logical rule of inference known as modus ponens). Thus penguintruth's argument (or rather my interpretation of it) as it stands is not only entirely valid (the premises, if true, guarantee the truth of the conclusion) but also is likely sound as well (the two premises are probably both true).

However, Kid Buu's problem with this argument shows that the first premise of penguintruth's argument logically implies a result that we ought to consider entirely problematic, if not ridiculous. The first premise, which penguintruth's argument depends on for its validity, also leads to the conclusion that "no fan of the Dragon Ball anime is a fan of Dragon Ball" a conclusion which obviously applies equally to both sub and dub fans, and which most of us would probably admit is ridiculous. Thus if penguintruth is to seriously advocate this argument he logically must commit himself to a conclusion which is undesirable, and thus penguintruth's argument is seriously flawed. I will hopefully be able to clarify why this is the case a little later, but first I must provide an interpretation of Kid Buu's point.

Kid Buu's point, I think, is that the following premise is true "the Dragon Ball anime includes changes which radically undermine the author's original story". Aside from the evidence that Kid Buu cites, there are many instances of filler which create explicit inconsistencies in the author's original story (see the filler guide). Indeed it could be argued that every bit of filler, whether it creates inconsistencies or not, is a radical change which undermines the author's original story since the author never intended it to be included. But this is merely an aside and now is not the time to discuss whether or not this is true. What matters in the present discussion, and what is true, is that there are pieces of filler which are inconsistent with the author's original story.

Now that we have a clear explanation of the objection (hopefully it is clear at least) we can now see how the objection creates a legitimate problem for penguintruth's argument. Recall penguintruth's argument:

Premise 1: If a person is a fan of a version of Dragon Ball which includes changes which radically undermine the author's original story, then they are not a fan of Dragon Ball.
Premise 2: The dub includes changes which radically undermine the author's original story
Conclusion: A fan of the dub is not a fan of Dragon Ball

Now if we replace premise two of this argument with the premise suggested by Kid Buu we have an equally sound, equally valid argument, identical in logical form, which generates a ridiculous conclusion:

Premise 1: If a person is a fan of a version of Dragon Ball which includes changes which radically undermine the author's original story, then they are not a fan of Dragon Ball.
Premise 2: The anime includes changes which radically undermine the author’s original story.
Conclusion: A fan of the anime version of Dragon Ball is not a fan of Dragon Ball.

Once again, by the laws of logic the conclusion of the second argument is necessarily true if the first two premises are true. Penguintruth has three options here. He can accept the conclusion of the second argument, in which case he would be accepting a conclusion which is most likely ridiculous. He could deny the second premise uncovered by Kid Buu, in which case he is denying a clear truth about the anime. Or finally he can deny premise one, in which case he must also deny the premise which makes his own argument work and consequently reject his argument. In simple terms penguintruth has to either give up his main argument that dub fans are not fans of the anime and try to find a different argument to support that conclusion, or he has to accept both arguments, in which case he has to accept that fans of the anime are not fans of Dragon Ball. If penguintruth’s argument is correct then we must also accept that fans of the anime are not fans of Dragon Ball, most of us would consider this ridiculous (correctly so I think), and so if we want to allow fans of the anime to be fans of Dragon Ball we must admit that penguintruth’s argument is incorrect (that is, we must take the third of these three options).

This is clearly a drastic problem with penguintruth’s logic, and one which produces an undesirable result. I hope that I have explained clearly why I think this is to be the case. Now that I have explained the problem with penguintruth’s logic I would like to explain how the responses provided by you and penguintruth to this objection committed the two fallacies I mentioned above.

You and penguintruth have clearly missed the point of what Kid Buu was saying I think. You took his point to be this: “since Toei’s anime adaptation of the manga contains inaccuracies, it is okay that the dub also contains inaccuracies, so please look at that instead of the problems of the dub”. Whether you intend to be or not this is really unfair to Kid Buu, who really did have a good insight. He never once said that the problems in the dub are okay because of the problems in the anime. In fact he explicitly denied that this was his point. Rather his point was that if penguintruth is right then fans of the anime are not fans of Dragon Ball. This appears to be a textbook example of missing the point (which is a legitimate and well documented fallacy, not something I am pulling out of the air).

This is why VegettoEX is incorrect to accuse Kid Buu of committing the fallacy of the red herring. You could only be correct that Kid Buu has committed a red herring if Kid Buu was in fact making the point that Toei’s inaccuracies excuse Funimation’s inaccuracies, which he wasn’t so far as I can tell. In other words you can only rightly claim that Kid Buu has committed the red-herring fallacy by missing his point; your accusation of a fallacy can only be correct if your response to Kid Buu is fallacious.

Far more unfair however is that you both seem to have not only missed the point, but also straw-manned Kid Buu. A straw man is the fallacy of presenting your opponent's position as being exceptionally weaker than it actually is, a dishonest move which has no logical relevance whatsoever. There are many ways in which straw manning can be done, but the two of you have done so by completely misrepresenting the entire point of Kid Buu’s claim and throwing in condescending remarks to make it seem completely weak and stupid. I would like to clarify that I am not accusing you of consciously trying to make Kid Buu look like shit by misrepresenting his claims, but whether that was your intent or not it seems to be exactly what your responses do. And once again some of the blame falls on Kid Buu’s shoulders, his lack of clarity certainly doesn’t do any favours to his argument.

Contrary to what Penguintruth says this argument is not at all weak, but legitimate and strong, and if we are to successfully explain why a fan of the dub is not actually a fan of Dragon Ball it is our duty to find either a solution to Kid Buu’s challenge or to construct a new argument which is not susceptible to the problem. I think that we ought to take it more seriously and attempt to construct a response or a better argument rather than being dismissive.

P.S. I hope that I haven’t come off as a patronizing douche here, I just wanted to clarify what I think the problem with penguintruth’s argument is and why I think that the responses to the argument are inadequate. I think that it is an interesting point which was glossed over and deserves to be examined on its own terms. I do not in any way want this to seem like a personal attack, just a logical analysis of the points expressed at this point in the discussion.

[Vice]

P.S. I hope that I haven’t come off as a patronizing douche here

No need to apologize for that. penguintruth has been doing it this whole topic and nobody's asked him to apologize for it yet.

[B]

You can't compare the anime's changes to the dub's changes. The vast majority of differences you can find between the original manga and the anime are made out of necessity(catching up to the manga, mainly). When it can be avoided, the anime is more or less a shot-for-shot reinterpretation of the manga, with voices and color. Music was specifically scored to match the tone of manga. Voices were cast based on characters' personalities, some even handpicked by Toriyama himself. It painstakingly goes out of its way to not diverge.

FUNimation has owned up to the fact their dub is a "reversioning." That is their wording. Their main intention was to make the show appeal to American youths. The integrity of the show was not a concern. It's not as black and white, "oh-there's-a-change" simple as you're painting it.

[Gogeta 00]

You can't compare the anime's changes to the dub's changes. The vast majority of differences you can find between the original manga and the anime are made out of necessity(catching up to the manga, mainly). When it can be avoided, the anime is more or less a shot-for-shot reinterpretation of the manga, with voices and color. Music was specifically scored to match the tone of manga. Voices were cast based on characters' personalities, some even handpicked by Toriyama himself. It painstakingly goes out of its way to not diverge.

FUNimation has owned up to the fact their dub is a "reversioning." That is their wording. Their main intention was to make the show appeal to American youths. The integrity of the show was not a concern. It's not as black and white, "oh-there's-a-change" simple as you're painting it.

But the point that is problematic here is that both the anime and the dub contain changes which undermine the author's work and thus according to penguintruth's reasoning neither a sub fan nor a dub fan could claim themselves to be fans of Dragon Ball. The issue is not the reason for these changes, and the piece of the argument that I am responding to made no mention of these reasons in their premises. The only relevant comparison between the dub and the sub from a logical point of view (in the context of penguintruth's argument which is what I am addressing) is that there are such changes and this is a comparison which is true. The reasons for these changes have absolutely no baring on the logic of the argument that penguintruth presented, unless the argument is to be amended such that the first premise states something along the lines of "If a person is a fan of a version of Dragon Ball which includes changes that undermine the author's intentions and the changes were not done out of necessity then they are not a fan of Dragon Ball". But this premise would need further qualification, it would require us to explain why the changes are okay if they are made out of necessity. This doesn't seem to me to be easily defensible. Regardless of whether the changes were made out of necessity the result is a story which is different and at times inconsistent with the author's original story. Since this is the case regardless of the reasons behind the changes, if penguintruth is right then we still have to exclude fans of the anime from qualifying as Dragon Ball fans. So such a solution does not seem to me to be a satisfactory one unless of course a solid argument could be provided that the intent of a change excuses any inaccuracies it may create. No matter what the intent was the changes still result in inconsistencies and those inconsistencies cannot be simply relieved or justified by saying that the company did what they had to do. From an artistic standpoint it simply doesn't make the changes acceptable. You should also keep in mind that I am not doing anything other than analyzing the logic of a particular argument and when one does that they must strive to preserve the content and structure of that argument as much as possible. If I imported these claims that you make into my reconstruction I wouldn't be doing that, since the argument I analyzed at this stage of the discussion contains no mention of the intentions behind Toei's changes. I do agree with everything you say of course, it just isn't really relevant to my analysis and it doesn't reconcile the problem I tried to bring out in penguintruth's argument.

[AgitoZ]

No need to apologize for that. penguintruth has been doing it this whole topic and nobody's asked him to apologize for it yet.

Probably because he doesn't have to.

[JulieYBM]

I'd say the subject at hand is pretty simple, one is "let's make a cartoon off of this popular comic" and the other is "let's give our cartoon to some penniless licensee and let them do whatever they like with it so we can make money off of Americans." I don't approve of replacing violence, nudity, music, sound effects or voice performances but at the end of the day this is the sanctioned degradation and misrepresentation of art and I think it is important to keep that at the forefront of one's mind when discussing the topic. Frankly, I'm not sure what there is left to discuss in terms of 'opinions'. Discussing 'opinions' just runs the topic around in circles. I don't think anyone has changed their minds on the subject and I don't think any of us have learned anything particularly new discussing others' opinions.

[90sDBZ]

Both are cheesey. I'm fine with something being cheesey but not to the point of it being cringeworthy.

. The Gohan was meant to be cheesy and goofy. Which is why it's a bad example. It's like saying a PURPOSELY corny joke in a cartoon is not funny when it was not meant to be funny. he movie 3 soundtrack is not even cheesy. It's wonderful. How is it chessy and don't fit? Please explain.

The dream scene in movie 2 was somewhat cheesey on its own. The music made it waaaay more cheesey. Why is it that people have no problem with stuff being intentionally corny in the original but condemn Funimation for adding corny jokes in here and there? And I obviously wasn't referring to the entire movie 3 soundtrack. Like I already pointed out it was just the Gohan and Hiya Dragon scene that stuck out like a soar thumb. To be fair the scene itself feels out of place in the rest of the pretty dark movie. I think it's safe to say that the only reason Hiya Dragon was even in the movie was to appeal to younger kids. If you showed someone that scene who had never seen the movie before they would have no idea that the rest of the movie was pretty serious in tone. It was like a bad spinoff called Gohan and his Dragon. The same goes for that dream scene in movie 2 that also felt completely out of place. The only time these sort of scenes have actually worked is in Dead Zone when Gohan was drunk. It was funny for young and older viewers alike while those other Gohan scenes from movies 2 and 3 feel like they have no place in their respective movies.

[Metalwario64]

Why is it that people have no problem with stuff being intentionally corny in the original but condemn Funimation for adding corny jokes in here and there?

adding

There you have it. They were supposed to dub the show, not put in whatever the heck they wanted.

Besides, a cute scene like Gohan's dream in movie 2 is quite different from "cat loves food! YEAH YEAH YEAH!", Freeza's constant gay jokes ("whatever turns you on big boy!", "We could have been so good together") and Humphrey Bogart references.

[TheGmGoken]

Both are cheesey. I'm fine with something being cheesey but not to the point of it being cringeworthy.

. The Gohan was meant to be cheesy and goofy. Which is why it's a bad example. It's like saying a PURPOSELY corny joke in a cartoon is not funny when it was not meant to be funny. he movie 3 soundtrack is not even cheesy. It's wonderful. How is it chessy and don't fit? Please explain.

The dream scene in movie 2 was somewhat cheesey on its own. The music made it waaaay more cheesey. Why is it that people have no problem with stuff being intentionally corny in the original but condemn Funimation for adding corny jokes in here and there? And I obviously wasn't referring to the entire movie 3 soundtrack. Like I already pointed out it was just the Gohan and Hiya Dragon scene that stuck out like a soar thumb. To be fair the scene itself feels out of place in the rest of the pretty dark movie. I think it's safe to say that the only reason Hiya Dragon was even in the movie was to appeal to younger kids. If you showed someone that scene who had never seen the movie before they would have no idea that the rest of the movie was pretty serious in tone. It was like a bad spinoff called Gohan and his Dragon. The same goes for that dream scene in movie 2 that also felt completely out of place. The only time these sort of scenes have actually worked is in Dead Zone when Gohan was drunk. It was funny for young and older viewers alike while those other Gohan scenes from movies 2 and 3 feel like they have no place in their respective movies.

The point was to be OVER THE TOP cheesy. Cartoons do it all the time. So it's no issue. Especially if you watch any other cartoons. You anwsered your own question. You linked me to the ENTIRE Movie 3 soundstrack so I gave you a judgement on the ENTIRE soundtrack. Also once again it was suppose to be corny. Cartoons do the same thing. Hell lots of classic cartoons such as Fairy Odd Parents, SpongeBob, Jimmy Neutron, Rugrats, CatDog, Rocko's morden life,and Lavar Cartoons have done over the top corny and cheesy things. Cause it was needed to be corny.If you basing the original OST off of corny scenes then you're nit picking. As I said early chose a better example please. Complain about the MOVIE having out place scenes. Don't blame it on the OST. Blame Toei.

You answered your own question. Funimation ADDED things to something that doesn't needed to be added own. DB already didn't take itself serious so why add my goofy stuff. That was the issue. The original manga and anime audio knew when to have comedic effect and dialog and when to be serious. Funimation always felt more funny than action when dubbing DBZ. The Cyborgs are killing machine and Yamcha complains Goku is getting heavy. Seriously. That's awful. I don't even care for the fact the dub wasn't 100% accurate or at least 70% accurate. It was the un needed goofy effects they placed on the story. They never knew when to be serious until maybe the Cell Games portion of the Cyborg arc.

[90sDBZ]

You answered your own question. Funimation ADDED things to something that doesn't needed to be added own. DB already didn't take itself serious so why add my goofy stuff. That was the issue. The original manga and anime audio knew when to have comedic effect and dialog and when to be serious. Funimation always felt more funny than action when dubbing DBZ. The Cyborgs are killing machine and Yamcha complains Goku is getting heavy. Seriously. That's awful. I don't even care for the fact the dub wasn't 100% accurate or at least 70% accurate. It was the un needed goofy effects they placed on the story. They never knew when to be serious until maybe the Cell Games portion of the Cyborg arc.

I specifically mentioned 1.11 in the video . Really don't see how I could make that more clear. Anyway like I said before cheesey can work when done right like in Dead Zone but not when it ends up being more annoying than funny. I really don't see how that scene with Hiya Dragon came across as being an attempt at corny humour rather than them trying too hard to make Gohan seem cute. Maybe I'm missing the humour in it. Please explain how that scene is funny.

[TheGmGoken]

You answered your own question. Funimation ADDED things to something that doesn't needed to be added own. DB already didn't take itself serious so why add my goofy stuff. That was the issue. The original manga and anime audio knew when to have comedic effect and dialog and when to be serious. Funimation always felt more funny than action when dubbing DBZ. The Cyborgs are killing machine and Yamcha complains Goku is getting heavy. Seriously. That's awful. I don't even care for the fact the dub wasn't 100% accurate or at least 70% accurate. It was the un needed goofy effects they placed on the story. They never knew when to be serious until maybe the Cell Games portion of the Cyborg arc.

I specifically mentioned 1.11 in the video . Really don't see how I could make that more clear. Anyway like I said before cheesey can work when done right like in Dead Zone but not when it ends up being more annoying than funny. I really don't see how that scene with Hiya Dragon came across as being an attempt at corny humour rather than them trying too hard to make Gohan seem cute. Maybe I'm missing the humour in it. Please explain how that scene is funny.

I said since you gave me a whole soundtrack. I gave you judgement on the whole soundtrack. Seems like you're hating on the actually scene rather than the OST. As I said before. It wasn't suppose to be funny. I even said it wasn't funny.

The Gohan was meant to be cheesy and goofy. Which is why it's a bad example. It's like saying a PURPOSELY corny joke in a cartoon is not funny when it was not meant to be funny. he movie 3 soundtrack is not even cheesy. It's wonderful. How is it chessy and don't fit? Please explain.

The point was to be OVER THE TOP cheesy. Cartoons do it all the time. So it's no issue. Especially if you watch any other cartoons.

it was suppose to be corny. Cartoons do the same thing. Hell lots of classic cartoons such as Fairy Odd Parents, SpongeBob, Jimmy Neutron, Rugrats, CatDog, Rocko's morden life,and Lavar Cartoons have done over the top corny and cheesy things. Cause it was needed to be corny.If you basing the original OST off of corny scenes then you're nit picking. As I said early chose a better example please. Complain about the MOVIE having out place scenes. Don't blame it on the OST. Blame Toei.

[90sDBZ]

You answered your own question. Funimation ADDED things to something that doesn't needed to be added own. DB already didn't take itself serious so why add my goofy stuff. That was the issue. The original manga and anime audio knew when to have comedic effect and dialog and when to be serious. Funimation always felt more funny than action when dubbing DBZ. The Cyborgs are killing machine and Yamcha complains Goku is getting heavy. Seriously. That's awful. I don't even care for the fact the dub wasn't 100% accurate or at least 70% accurate. It was the un needed goofy effects they placed on the story. They never knew when to be serious until maybe the Cell Games portion of the Cyborg arc.

I specifically mentioned 1.11 in the video . Really don't see how I could make that more clear. Anyway like I said before cheesey can work when done right like in Dead Zone but not when it ends up being more annoying than funny. I really don't see how that scene with Hiya Dragon came across as being an attempt at corny humour rather than them trying too hard to make Gohan seem cute. Maybe I'm missing the humour in it. Please explain how that scene is funny.

I said since you gave me a whole soundtrack. I gave you judgement on the whole soundtrack. Seems like you're hating on the actually scene rather than the OST. As I said before. It wasn't suppose to be funny. I even said it wasn't funny.

The Gohan was meant to be cheesy and goofy. Which is why it's a bad example. It's like saying a PURPOSELY corny joke in a cartoon is not funny when it was not meant to be funny. he movie 3 soundtrack is not even cheesy. It's wonderful. How is it chessy and don't fit? Please explain.

The point was to be OVER THE TOP cheesy. Cartoons do it all the time. So it's no issue. Especially if you watch any other cartoons.

it was suppose to be corny. Cartoons do the same thing. Hell lots of classic cartoons such as Fairy Odd Parents, SpongeBob, Jimmy Neutron, Rugrats, CatDog, Rocko's morden life,and Lavar Cartoons have done over the top corny and cheesy things. Cause it was needed to be corny.If you basing the original OST off of corny scenes then you're nit picking. As I said early chose a better example please. Complain about the MOVIE having out place scenes. Don't blame it on the OST. Blame Toei.

I have a problem with both the scene and the music. I will say that if they were trying to make the scene annoying and out of place then it was certainly given the right music to make it just that. It was like they suddenly turned DBZ into Pokemon. TFS even made fun of it. I like Pokemon but that sort of thing has no place in an otherwise serious DBZ movie. And you keep saying how the scene was supposed to be a joke but to me the scene just feels like a cheap way for Toei to sell toys. Nothing about the scene says self-parody. Just a bad idea rather.

[TheGmGoken]

I have a problem with both the scene and the music. I will say that if they were trying to make the scene annoying and out of place then it was certainly given the right music to make it just that. It was like they suddenly turned DBZ into Pokemon. TFS even made fun of it. I like Pokemon but that sort of thing has no place in an otherwise serious DBZ movie. And you keep saying how the scene was supposed to be a joke but to me the scene just feels like a cheap way for Toei to sell toys. Nothing about the scene says self-parody. Just a bad idea rather.

The scene was suppose to be corny with corny music for a CORNY scene. It fits perfectly. Once again please use a better example than some corny scene that uses corny music. It was corny + corny. Lots of cartoons do it. Lots of cartoons have a out of place scene. DB is not exception and you should't use those types of scenes as an example to show why the original score was corny and goofy. WOW! TFS made a joke! WOW! That must mean it's a bad scene. TFS is a parody. They will and have made jokes out of lots of things in the serious. Even Vegeta's claim of being a SSJ. Something that was serious. Guess that mean any OST that played when Vegeta was talking about SSJ was corny because TFS made fun of it. Well that's to you. The scene was CHEAP comedy. I keep saying the scene was gag-like and corny because that's what it was. To you it was cheap comedy. But you can't say the score did not fit because they made a Soundtrack to match a gag scene. That's obscured. I can't complain to Mr. Bruce that he made a sad song to match a sad scene because the song was to match the scene.

[90sDBZ]

The scene was suppose to be corny with corny music for a CORNY scene. It fits perfectly. Once again please use a better example than some corny scene that uses corny music. It was corny + corny. Lots of cartoons do it. Lots of cartoons have a out of place scene. DB is not exception and you should't use those types of scenes as an example to show why the original score was corny and goofy. WOW! TFS made a joke! WOW! That must mean it's a bad scene. TFS is a parody. They will and have made jokes out of lots of things in the serious. Even Vegeta's claim of being a SSJ. Something that was serious. Guess that mean any OST that played when Vegeta was talking about SSJ was corny because TFS made fun of it. Well that's to you. The scene was CHEAP comedy. I keep saying the scene was gag-like and corny because that's what it was. To you it was cheap comedy. But you can't say the score did not fit because they made a Soundtrack to match a gag scene. That's obscured. I can't complain to Mr. Bruce that he made a sad song to match a sad scene because the song was to match the scene.

That's the thing though. There was NO comedy in that scene good or bad. There was no joke to be seen or heard corny or non-corny, funny or unfunny. It was simply a pointless scene with annoying music. Kikuchi could have just used a peaceful serene track for that scene but instead he used stupid overly happy music that turned a pointless scene into an annoying one.

[Ringworm128]

I honestly can't help but think there's some double standards (is that the right word?) when it comes to bashing the dub.

"Toei can do whatever they want it's their show, and the changes don't really affect the story"

"How dare Funimation do something with DBZ even though Toei gave them the blessing thus giving them both the legal and moral right. You can't make changes if you're making a dub, my big invisible anime rule book said so."

[TheGmGoken]

The scene was suppose to be corny with corny music for a CORNY scene. It fits perfectly. Once again please use a better example than some corny scene that uses corny music. It was corny + corny. Lots of cartoons do it. Lots of cartoons have a out of place scene. DB is not exception and you should't use those types of scenes as an example to show why the original score was corny and goofy. WOW! TFS made a joke! WOW! That must mean it's a bad scene. TFS is a parody. They will and have made jokes out of lots of things in the serious. Even Vegeta's claim of being a SSJ. Something that was serious. Guess that mean any OST that played when Vegeta was talking about SSJ was corny because TFS made fun of it. Well that's to you. The scene was CHEAP comedy. I keep saying the scene was gag-like and corny because that's what it was. To you it was cheap comedy. But you can't say the score did not fit because they made a Soundtrack to match a gag scene. That's obscured. I can't complain to Mr. Bruce that he made a sad song to match a sad scene because the song was to match the scene.

That's the thing though. There was NO comedy in that scene good or bad. There was no joke to be seen or heard corny or non-corny, funny or unfunny. It was simply a pointless scene with annoying music. Kikuchi could have just used a peaceful serene track for that scene but instead he used stupid overly happy music that turned a pointless scene into an annoying one.

Gohan dancing was quite funny to some people. So it did have comedy. Gohan dream was funny mixed with a nightmare. So yes the scene is gag like and the song matches it. It's your opinion that the scene isn't funny. The song matches the scene corny and funny-ness. Kikuchi use gag songs for a gag scene. Once again please provide a better example then some gag scenes using gag music. As you're just complaining that the scene was bad. Think of it like this. Bad scene and Bad music. Either way the music matched the scene.

I honestly can't help but think there's some double standards (is that the right word?) when it comes to bashing the dub.

That's the right word and trust me it is. It's bad for Funimation to change things but when Toei does it, it's to help the series(Minus the contradiction plot hole ones). I don't know why Toei gets a pass. Though I agree that Funimation should't have changed that much(Can't expect the dub to be 100% accurate seeing as DBZ had some WORST dubs I've ever heard) but Toei should't have changed some things that wasn't in the manga.

[Gogeta 00]

I honestly can't help but think there's some double standards (is that the right word?) when it comes to bashing the dub.

"Toei can do whatever they want it's their show, and the changes don't really affect the story"

"How dare Funimation do something with DBZ even though Toei gave them the blessing thus giving them both the legal and moral right. You can't make changes if you're making a dub, my big invisible anime rule book said so."

I can definitely see how you might get this impression but I disagree. The big difference is that the changes in Toei's anime adaptation are mostly filler which as has been stated before was unavoidable. Despite those filler changes however the non-filler scenes in the Toei version are mostly completely faithful representations of the original manga scenes that they correspond to. The characters and content of the canonical scenes are all presented such that they preserve the author's original story and intentions. But the changes in the dub however are such that they drastically alter or undermine some of the canonical scene's from the manga and thus do not at all preserve the author's original story and intentions (e.g. Vegeta's death scene). Furthermore as penguintruth mentioned earlier most fans of the original acknowledge that the filler added by Toei creates some inconsistencies with Toriyama's story and hold that these changes are not excusable, so I'm not sure that your double standard actually reflects the feelings of the fans of the original Japanese version, it certainly does not reflect mine.

[90sDBZ]

Gohan dancing was quite funny to some people. So it did have comedy. Gohan dream was funny mixed with a nightmare. So yes the scene is gag like and the song matches it. It's your opinion that the scene isn't funny. The song matches the scene corny and funny-ness. Kikuchi use gag songs for a gag scene. Once again please provide a better example then some gag scenes using gag music. As you're just complaining that the scene was bad. Think of it like this. Bad scene and Bad music. Either way the music matched the scene.

The Gohan dancing scene was in movie 4 not movie 3.