Question about "hardcore" anime fans opinion on DBZ dub

[Thanos]

The main issue I have in FUNimation's alterations is how completely fucking arbitrary they were. Sometimes certain elements weren't necessarily better or worse than the original, they were just... random. And the only result was increasing its inconsistency with its source and creating non-existent plot holes.

I find it rather ironic that, despite the fact that the original Dragon Ball series was far more raunchy and therefore edited for television in the dub, it was quite a bit more accurate than the Z dub.

The only justification (from the perspective of the distributor) for editing the source beyond altering dialogue structure to match lip-flaps is to bypass censoring laws for television. What was done with Z was a series of arbitrary non sequitur changes that really had no other effect but to confuse the narrative. It's not like deciding you want Nappa to be the leader of a Saiyan army (to use Herms' example) is easier to digest for kids, patches any existing plot holes (nay, it creates them), or has the potential to increase interest/viewership. It's just... there. Sure, in the long run I'm sure no one noticed, but the point is still relevant.

[Gogeta 00]

Penguintruth you continue to do nothing but make the same errors no matter how many times I have brought them to your attention. There is not a single hint of fluff in any of my posts, it is precise logical analysis which is quite the opposite of fluff. If you want a debate you are supposed to respond to points and counterpoints not respond to entirely separate points and make useless and hollow insults which are not even backed up with any argument or explanation, just stated. What you are doing is the exact opposite of a debate. There is no reason whatsoever for me to respond to your last two posts because you have just made the exact same errors which I have brought up over and over again and you have just continued to not actually respond to anything that I have said. Aside from that you have already been warned by one of the webmaster's and as such I have no desire to entice you into making things even worst. I take Herm's warning to include a warning for me to stop trying to explain myself to you. I have said everything that needed to be said to make my point clear to you, you did not respond to any of it and therefore it is clearly useless for me to continue trying to reason with you, I'd just keep repeating myself and you'd just keep refusing to actually respond to the issue, so it is entirely pointless to continue any type of discussion with you. I apologize to the moderator's if these statements seemed uncalled for or harsh.

Gogeta00, the main flaw with your argument is how you keep ignoring the word "radically".

Your primary argument is, quote

1. "If a person is a fan of a version of Dragon Ball which includes changes which radically undermine the author's original story, then they are not a fan of Dragon Ball."

2. “A fan of the Japanese version of the Dragon Ball anime is a fan of Dragon Ball.”

Since there are such changes mentioned in (1) included in the Japanese version it is logically impossible for both (1) and (2) to be true at the same time.

As has already been brought up... Toei's adaptation doesn't "include changes which radically undermine the author's original story". It adapts practically every event from every panel of the manga, exactly as depicted. It quotes almost every bit of dialogue verbatim. Yes, it adds a number of new scenes to the proceedings, and there is the odd rewrite here and there, but it never "radically undermines" Toriyama's original. Yet your argument completely hinges on this being the case, despite you never actually arguing why it is so. That's where it all falls apart.

This is how one should properly respond to an argument, by addressing one of the premises concretely and disputing its truth. I appreciate that you take the time to fairly represent my view by quoting me directly and I further appreciate how you are responding to it in an effective and proper way.

It is completely fair for you to accuse me of not explaining how the changes Toei made radically undermine the author's original story. I did mention my justification for this briefly in my initial post but I did so very quickly by referring to the things that Kid Buu mentioned and the Kanzenshuu filler guide. However I certainly didn't make my point clear enough. I should have, that responsibility is entirely mine and I apologize for not meeting it effectively.

The reason that I consider Toei's changes to be radical is that some of the filler creates legitimate plot holes which directly contradict something that Toriyama later says in the story. For example the origin of the Dragon Balls presented in the early episodes of Dragon Ball which is later contradicted by the actual origin of the Dragon Balls. Thus due to the changes that Toei makes in filler there are multiple contradictions contained in the story of the Dragon Ball anime. I take this to be radical since, well, it seems completely clear that any change which contradicts something in the original story is a radical change from the original story. My focus was not so much on the more minor filler issues that you listed, but on the legitimate inconsistencies caused by the filler. It is of course not entirely fair to blame Toei for the inconsistencies; it is not their fault the author chose to do something different in the future. But as noted the evaluative issue of whether Toei deserves to be blamed for the inconsistencies is a separate issue from whether or not the changes actually are inconsistent. What matters from the point of view of the argument I was addressing was that the changes are there and as such the separate issue of why they are there is not relevant to the analysis and doesn't help us to avoid the problem.

[Roland_ELoG]

Penguintruth you continue to do nothing but make the same errors no matter how many times I have brought them to your attention. There is not a single hint of fluff in any of my posts, it is precise logical analysis which is quite the opposite of fluff. If you want a debate you are supposed to respond to points and counterpoints not respond to entirely separate points and make useless and hollow insults which are not even backed up with any argument or explanation, just stated. What you are doing is the exact opposite of a debate.

I think he just wants to be sarcastic. What was that Alfred said about worlds, men, and fire?

[B]

If we are to entertain the idea that the changes made by both Toei and FUNimation are on equal footing, and that they both radically alter what they are adapting, it still doesn't dispute Penguintruth's earlier statement that the anime and the manga are two different things, belonging to two different mediums, and that the manga doesn't even factor into the scenario. The anime is a television show with sounds, voices, and color. It's not paper and ink. It has an allotted running time of around twenty minutes per episode. The manga moves as fast or as slow as the individual reader. Toei has created from scratch an entirely separate product while FUNimation did no such thing.

[Mewzard]

Toei doesn't get a free pass for the bad decisions they've made in making an adaptation any more than Fox should for the live action movie.

Just because Toei added animation to the voice work and music they added, doesn't make it any more appropriate than the crap Funi pulled in the 90s.

Toei's notorious for using the cheapest bare minimum to get a series out while profiting. Hell, look at Kai. Despite being cheaply made and highly rated, they pulled the plug on it for a lack of merchandise sales. They don't have some sort of artistic high ground to stand on. Toei wouldn't really care what you did with something they licensed out to you if it made them money. I'm sure many creators there care, but man, the place is financially stilted to ensure maximum profits.

[Gaffer Tape]

No, Toei doesn't get a free pass for bad decisions, pacing, etc. But that's still comparing apples to oranges. Toei and FUNimation did not both set out to adapt Dragon Ball into a television series. That's what Toei did. They made their own original work. FUNimation's job was to translate that. In this case, Toei's work is the source material, so comparing how close one or the other is to the manga is irrelevant. FUNimation certainly wouldn't make the claim they were trying to adapt the manga, so why would anybody else?

I have been skimming this thread a bit, and something I find odd is the bandying about of the supposed insult of "being less of a fan." And every time I see that phrase or a variation on it, I'm always reminded of what Bussani, I believe, says whenever someone asks if something is canon. "Canon to what?" Likewise, whenever I see this come up, I find myself asking, "Less of a fan of what?" Sure there are people who would use that phrase to try and insult or invalidate other people's affinities. But when you tack on that addendum, it suddenly appears to be not insulting at all.

Allow me to illustrate. If I were to take a hardcore dub fan and play him a clip of Nozawa screaming in all of her glory with the Kikuchi score blaring its horns and vibroslap and tell him, "You're less of a fan of this than I am," I really doubt he's going to take offense. In fact, he's probably going to agree with me. And in so doing, he is also basically confirming that the original and the dub ARE two different things. If they were the same thing, how could he be a fan of one and not the other? They're not the same thing, just like Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball Kai aren't the same thing, and there are tons of people here who prefer one and not the other. That's not an insult. In fact, I'd wager the dub fan would be insulted or embarrassed if someone came into the room and said, "Oh, that's that Dragon Ball Z you're always talking about. So you're a fan of that?" just as I am when someone assumes I'm a fan of the dub. The dub fan is less of a fan when it comes to the original. I'm less of a fan when it comes to the dub. I'm not a hardcore fan. In fact, I'm not a fan at all. And I'm proud to say that.

There is no reason to invalidate anyone's choice. People are free to like whatever they like. BUT what Toei made is the source material in this scenario. That's what the show is. FUNimation took it and turned it into something else in varying degrees. So when you get down to that "state of being" FUNimation's version is the aberration. Does that mean you can't like it or even prefer it? Of course not. But it is what it is, and I do feel fans of the original have a right to say that what they watch is the true version of the animated Dragon Ball while FUNimation's is not. It's not an insult. It's just a statement of fact.

[Roland_ELoG]

I will continue to take my third option: liking both. Just not the Big Green dub, good god that shit is bananas.

[Super Sonic]

With how Toei did things is not just a Toei thing. Rosario + Vampire by Gonzo animation did changes from the manga like not making darker and edgier as the show went on, and upping the fanservice. Don't mind it as I like the lighthearted take more than just getting darker, more dramatic and evil organizations. Don't know how the thoughts on it were other than hearing the fans in Japan weren't happy but the dvds Funimation did sold well stateside to where a lot of guys keep asking Funimation for a season 3.

[KentalSSJ6]

Toei doesn't get a free pass for the bad decisions they've made in making an adaptation any more than Fox should for the live action movie.

Just because Toei added animation to the voice work and music they added, doesn't make it any more appropriate than the crap Funi pulled in the 90s.

Toei's notorious for using the cheapest bare minimum to get a series out while profiting. Hell, look at Kai. Despite being cheaply made and highly rated, they pulled the plug on it for a lack of merchandise sales. They don't have some sort of artistic high ground to stand on. Toei wouldn't really care what you did with something they licensed out to you if it made them money. I'm sure many creators there care, but man, the place is financially stilted to ensure maximum profits.

As I have said before, if Dragonball is ever gonna get a completely new animated version, Toei is gonna have to let it go to someone else like BONES, Gainax, or Flying Dog or take the unlikely route and actually put some real effort into the series, but as we all know, that simply isnt going to happen.

[DragonBalllKaiHD]

I'm in the same boat as penguintruth. My biggest problem with Funimation's dub of DBZ is that they changed the original intent of the show. If I read the manga and then watch the anime dubbed by the company, then I'd know it isn't DBZ anymore. It just... become another show with completely different dialog. FUNimation's Goku isn't the Goku that I know and love. It's totally different character. You aren't fan of Goku if it isn't Goku. This applies to everyone and everything in the DB anime. I'm sorry, but it's the truth. You aren't fan of DBZ if it's not what Toriyama had envisioned the story to be. The Harmony Gold dub, anyone?

I'm not really feeling the argument on Toei vs. FUNimation. Both are two very, very different companies with different title. Toei is an animation company, whereas FUNimation is a dubbing company. Toei got the right to animate Dragon Ball and had the seiyuus to do some voice work for the characters assigned to them and do the dialogs presented to them. The said dialogs are very, very similar to what was in the manga version. In other words, Toei just breath the manga into life with the animation and voice. It's essentially the same story told in two different versions, while FUNimation altered the story dramatically that it is not the same story as the preceding ones. But all of these now become irrelevant thanks to Kai.

Obviously we wouldn't prevent anyone from enjoying the old dub, but they aren't the fans of Dragon Ball if it is not the original intent envisioned by Toriyama.

If we are to entertain the idea that the changes made by both Toei and FUNimation are on equal footing, and that they both radically alter what they are adapting, it still doesn't dispute Penguintruth's earlier statement that the anime and the manga are two different things, belonging to two different mediums, and that the manga doesn't even factor into the scenario. The anime is a television show with sounds, voices, and color. It's not paper and ink. It has an allotted running time of around twenty minutes per episode. The manga moves as fast or as slow as the individual reader. Toei has created from scratch an entirely separate product.

Toei didn't radically alter what they adapted. They just added a few things here and there. The anime version is almost the same as the manga version. Like you said, they just produced DB with sounds, voice, and color. FUNimation, on other hand, completely changed everything that was in there and make their own story.

[Ringworm128]

What I don't get is why dub Goku can't just exist as a separate version of Goku?

[rereboy]

What I don't get is why dub Goku can't just exist as a separate version of Goku?

He does. He is the american version of Goku. His voice is different from the original, he talks in english, and he even says many things that aren't in the original. But he is still Goku. Just a different version of him.

[Metalwario64]

What I don't get is why dub Goku can't just exist as a separate version of Goku?

He does. He is the american version of Goku. His voice is different from the original, he talks in english, and he even says many things that aren't in the original. But he is still Goku. Just a different version of him.

I guess like Heath Ledger's Joker vs. Jack Nicholson's or Cesar Romero's.

[rereboy]

What I don't get is why dub Goku can't just exist as a separate version of Goku?

He does. He is the american version of Goku. His voice is different from the original, he talks in english, and he even says many things that aren't in the original. But he is still Goku. Just a different version of him.

I guess like Heath Ledger's Joker vs. Jack Nicholson's or Cesar Romero's.

Yes. Remakes, different interpretations and whatnot are all just different versions. Doesn't mean that they aren't all the Joker.

Even if the Funimation Dub was flawless in their translation, the Funimation Goku would still be different from the original Goku. He would speak in a different language, have a different voice and his vocal performance would have differences compared to the original version. Meaning that he would still be a different version of Goku. The errors in the translation make him have even more differences compared to the original version, but he is still a version of Goku.

[Looneygamemaster]

The anime version is almost the same as the manga version.

That's kind of what makes it a terrible adaptation--it doesn't take into account that a cartoon TV show is a different format than a comic book. They're content to just "animate the story" instead of making it stand on its own. Which accounts for the atrocious pacing.

But it almost seems futile to complain about that, because anime like DBZ, Naruto, One Piece and the like aren't made to be quality shows. They're made to advertise the manga, so they'll go on forever, animation and story pacing be hanged. Frankly, we're lucky that any quality shows come out of that mindset.

Anyway...

Though they're different from each other, Toei and Funimation are in the same boat in that their adaptation of the title is terrible. Toei made the comic book worse when it made it DBZ, and Funimation made that worse for the English dub. That's how I see it.

Of course, Funimation has greatly improved in their field, and Toei...hasn't.

[Gogeta 00]

Gaffertape I both like and agree with most of what you say. I think that between what you said and the points the Adamant brought up earlier about naming essentially reflect my feelings on the matter. But first I'll respond to what you and B had to say in regard to my argument against penguintruth.

If we are to entertain the idea that the changes made by both Toei and FUNimation are on equal footing, and that they both radically alter what they are adapting, it still doesn't dispute Penguintruth's earlier statement that the anime and the manga are two different things, belonging to two different mediums, and that the manga doesn't even factor into the scenario.

and from Gaffertape:

In this case, Toei's work is the source material, so comparing how close one or the other is to the manga is irrelevant. FUNimation certainly wouldn't make the claim they were trying to adapt the manga, so why would anybody else?

First of all in response to B, I haven't made the suggestion that the changes that the two companies have made are on equal footing. I don't think that is the case at all. But the two do not need to be on equal footing for the problematic conclusion to follow from penguintruth's original argument, they just each need to contain changes that undermine the original story and since they both do the ridiculous conclusion that a fan of the original anime is not a fan of Dragon Ball follows.

Before I continue let me once again state what I have a problem with and what I do not. I do not have any problem with saying that the changes Toei made were more justified. I do not have any problem with the claim that a fan of dub is a not a fan of the same thing as the original Japanese anime (since I take this to be an obvious truth).

I have two problems:

1) I have a problem with penguintruth's move from the fact that a dub fan is not a fan of the original anime to the conclusion that they are not fans of Dragon Ball at all. (For multiple reasons which shall be addressed).

2) I have a problem with penguintruth's original argument, not because it leads to the conclusion that a fan of the dub is not a fan of Dragon Ball, but because the reason for reaching this conclusion would also commit us to the conclusion that fans of the original anime are not fans of Dragon Ball. Rejecting penguintruth's argument does not commit me to any views involving the justification for Toei's changes or Funimations changes, nor does it make me a defender or apologizer of the dub ( I am far from that). Rather what I am committed to is the claim that we cannot use the changes that a version may have from the original story as a criterion for determining whether a fan of that version is a fan of Dragon Ball because this leads us directly to the problematic conclusion (I reject the premise which the argument I am refuting rests on in other words, I am not making any additional positive or negative claims about the versions and the changes they contain).

Now it is fair to point out that my rejection of the penguintruth argument depends on a comparison between the anime and the manga. But what I think that you and Gaffertape have overlooked (perhaps because I have not explained it well enough) is that the first premise of the penguintruth argument requires us to make such a comparison. Therefore not only do I think that the comparison is relevant, but also necessary when we are evaluating the argument that penguintruth originally put forth.

Recall that penguintruth's reason for rejecting the dub as being Dragon Ball was that it contains changes which undermine the original story. If we want to see if this rejection is justified we must therefore acknowledge the original story. The original story is not the Japanese anime, it is the manga. We cannot therefore exclude the manga from the analysis; the argument depends upon a comparison to the original story, the manga is the original story, therefore the argument depends upon a comparison to the manga. From this we must infer that the original anime is not Dragon Ball if the statement which penugintruth's argument depends on is true. Therefore I simply conclude that since it is ridiculous to say that the original anime is not Dragon Ball (and seriously who wouldn't agree that it is ridiculous) the statement is not true and thus the argument is not sound (and therefore doesn't generate its intended conclusion).

On the surface it may seem as though we can get to the conclusion that penguintruth wished to generate by changing the first premise to be something like this: "If someone is a fan of a version of the Dragon Ball anime which includes changes which undermine the original Japanese anime then they are not a fan of Dragon Ball".

This would give us an entirely new argument to reach the conclusion that a fan of the dub is not a fan of Dragon Ball, and I think that this is what you are suggesting that we do. Since there is no mention of the original story we do not need to factor comparisons of the manga into our determination of whether or not someone is a Dragon Ball fan. Therefore the argument doesn't commit us to the view that fans of the Japanese version are fans of Dragon Ball. Problem solved right? Not quite.

Despite appearances we still cannot reach the desired conclusion that a fan of the dub is not a fan ofDragon Ball. The most that we can conclude is that they are not fans of the Japanese version of the Dragon Ball anime, which as noted is just a simple and non-controversial fact. If we wanted to say that the dub fans are not Dragon Ball fans on the basis that the dub undermines the original anime (which this new argument is attempting) we would have to restrict the term "Dragon Ball" to the Japanese anime alone. We would need to do this because if "Dragon Ball" didn't refer to the original anime alone we could not say that the dub fans are not fans of Dragon Ball, we could only say that they are not fans of the original version of Dragon Ball (which is not the conclusion penguintruth wanted to reach or the conclusion which this new argument strives for).

But we cannot say that Dragon Ball is only the original anime. Restricting the term Dragon Ball to any one thing creates many general issues but lets suppose that we could ignore all of those issues for the sake of argument. Could we ever possibly be justified in saying that Dragon Ball is nothing more than the original Japanese version? I don't think so. I think that the only thing that we could ever conceivably justify as being the exclusive referent of the term would have to be the original story, i.e. the manga. But I don't think that this would be justifiable (since we would have to say that the anime isn't Dragon Ball). I don't think that we could ever be justified to restrict Dragon Ball to any one thing. Therefore to say that a dub fan isn't a fan of Dragon Ball at all, on the basis that they are not a fan of the original Japanese anime is not a justified inference since Dragon Ball includes more than just the original Japanese anime.

The most we can conclude is that a dub fan isn't a fan of the original. This is uncontroversially true I think (and Gaffertape does a great idea of explaining why).

Essentially what I think is problematic is that when one says they are a fan of Dragon Ball it is hard to determine what they are referring to, since they are fans of two different things with the same name. It sounds simple but I really think that the whole problem is a nominal one created by a semantic confusion. Adamant (earlier in the discussion) and Gaffertape have done a great job at explaining this point. As Adamant suggested the whole problem of "Is a dub fan a fan of Dragon Ball?" would be non-existent if the dub had been released under a different name such as "The Adventures of Son Goku and the Z Warriors". If this were the case the fact that the dub and the sub are different things would be clarified by the fact that they have different names, and no dub fan would get offended if someone said that they weren't a fan of Dragon Ball since they would consider themselves a fan of The Adventures of Son Goku and the Z warriors.

But because the two different things share the same name it becomes impossible to justifiably and accurately say that they are not a fan of Dragon Ball since they are a fan of something called Dragon Ball and thus they are a fan of Dragon Ball. When a sub fan says that a dub fan is not a fan of Dragon Ball what they are really saying is that they are not a fan of the original version of Dragon Ball. But this subtlety is lost because the word Dragon Ball refers to both versions, and because of this the dub fans will get upset and it comes off as insulting, when in fact what is being said is something that is not only not an insult but also something that the dub fan would agree with.

There is no reason to invalidate anyone's choice. People are free to like whatever they like. BUT what Toei made is the source material in this scenario. That's what the show is. FUNimation took it and turned it into something else in varying degrees. So when you get down to that "state of being" FUNimation's version is the aberration. Does that mean you can't like it or even prefer it? Of course not. But it is what it is, and I do feel fans of the original have a right to say that what they watch is the true version of the animated Dragon Ball while FUNimation's is not. It's not an insult. It's just a statement of fact.

I agree with this. However since the true version of the anime is the original Japanese version saying "I am a fan of the true version of Dragon Ball" is no different from saying "I am a fan of the original Japanese version of Dragon Ball". The first one, though true can come of as insulting and lead people to make a lot of mean spirited and poor arguments against the original being the true version. It is entirely stupid when people do that but it happens. I agree with you that it is not an insult to call the original the true version, but for whatever reason most of the dub fans don't and take offense to it. I guess they just find something condescending about the word "true" although I think that you are right that there really isn't. So even though the two statements say the same thing one comes off as more insulting than the other. It is funny how stuff like that happens. The dub fan might completely agree with one sentence and disagree with the other even though they say the same thing. Fuck language.

P.S. I may not be able to keep up with the discussion any more, the dreaded finals are coming.

[Puto]

Yeah, basically. I think when a sub fan is telling a dub-only fan that he's not a real fan of Dragon Ball, I think what he means deep down is 'you're not a fan of my Dragon Ball'.

The issue is basically that the name 'Dragon Ball' applies to two very distinct products which happen to share the same footage.

[Roland_ELoG]

Try submitting your post AS a final. I think it should at least count for partial credit.

My take on it is like this:
Should FUNimation have made the changes they made? No, probably not. Their current localization practices are much less destructive, so clearly they've learned and evolved.

So is there any reason to get upset at something that is so firmly in the past? The English version shouldn't have been such a radical departure from the Japanese, but it was. The version we got isn't going to become retroactively more faithful if we try hard enough. Some people were introduced to the series through that version, and are still fans of it. Should FUNimation completely bury the version many of their fans want, instead of continuing to make it available?

It's like those racist-ass wartime cartoons. They're embarrassing, but they're still interesting, and artifacts of a previous time. And they're still enjoyable, as long as you recognize the atmosphere of the time that produced them.

[Ringworm128]

I love how people here always complain about short posts and now that someone has made a long post they get crap for it.

[Gogeta 00]

I love how people here always complain about short posts and now that someone has made a long post they get crap for it.

I think that he was just making a playful joke.