SSJ Goku vs 100% Freeza

[freezamite]

Don't worry, I will open a thread explaining the tons of mistakes this guide has

Unless you're completely fluent in Japanese and have sat and read through the entirety of every single guide book on your own completely independent of second-hand research you've done, I would recommend checking out Episode #0265 of our podcast where Herms and I detail some of these things.

This, of course, doesn't include things that people disagree with on principle of their own convoluted power scaling charts, which I'd hardly say are "mistakes".

I will hear it before opening a new thread to make sure I'm not saying anything you've already said on those podcasts. But those mistakes are, as you say, related to power scaling. Not "convoluted" (at least in my opinion) power-scaling but basic rules of power-scaling that are not respected by the Daizenshuu.

Certainly, I think it's silly to say that the guidebooks "misunderstood the whole manga from top to bottom", since if anything their major fault is devoting most of their space to painfully obvious statements like "Goku is a Saiyan" or "Freeza is really strong". And the function of battle power numbers in the series is to a) sound impressive and b) mislead the bad guys who rely on them. They were never meant to form a particularly coherent system.

Well, what I wanted to say is that on the power-scaling part of those guides (the one we are talking about) there are some fundamental mistakes that trounce the basis of what was explained on the manga regarding that.
Just as you say, those guides collect tons of information directly from the manga, and I'm sure that there are tons of interesting details I don't even remember, so my way to say that their power-scaling section has some serious mistakes wasn't the most appropriate to say the least. My mistake.

Thank you very much for your translation labour of the manga and the guides, it left me truly impressed and in fact it's something I've been using for some time now.

[Kaboom]

Not "convoluted" (at least in my opinion) power-scaling but basic rules of power-scaling that are not respected by the Daizenshuu.

There. Are. No. Power-scaling. "Rules."

Official guidebooks are not constrained by restrictive stipulations made up by fans who place too much value on a power-measuring numbers system that the series itself spent a lot of time telling us weren't the be-all end-all focus of battles.

[RandomGuy96]

Vegeta got hit by a kaio-ken x4 Kamehameha and wasn't even seriously injured. Obviously this means that the 18,000 number was wrong and Vegeta's power level is actually 72,000, otherwise he would've instantly died, as even a blast with a x1.2 gap was shown in the Dodoria fight to be capable of one-shotting (Dodoria is commonly pegged at 20,000 by those who don't accept that Daiz). It bugs me that Toriyama didn't respect these basic power scaling rules. This means that the Dragon Ball manga is wrong and non-canon.

[Fionordequester]

Honestly, I always thought there was a pretty reasonable explanation for Vegeta taking that so well. I mean think about it, Goku was absolutely exhausted, he went up to Kaioken X4 when even X3 was doing serious damage to him, and if you look at the Kamehameha, it starts out big, but once it actually hits Vegeta, it's already shrinked a lot in size, to the point where it was little more than an overglorified ki blast.

What I took from that was that X4 was too hard for Goku to maintain long enough to finish the job, so he just let the Kamehameha disappear the instant it overcame the Gallic Gun, whichs means it wasn't actually AT full power by the time it got to Vegeta.

Anyone else think that sounds like a reasonable explanation?

[RandomGuy96]

Even if you believed that, you'd still have Vegeta easily recovering from numerous hits from kaio-ken x3 Goku, while Cui vs Vegeta, which had literally the exact same battle powers involved, had Vegeta punching a hole through Cui and then taking him out in one shot. And Piccolo tanking Goku's Super Kamehameha.

[Fionordequester]

Well, dunno about Vegeta vs. Cui Cui, but Goku might've been held back from going quite full force by the strain of Kaioken X3? And perhaps the "Super Kamehameha" was a failure? One of those things that wasn't as good as Goku thought it would be? It IS the only time Goku ever uses it!

[freezamite]

Not "convoluted" (at least in my opinion) power-scaling but basic rules of power-scaling that are not respected by the Daizenshuu.

There. Are. No. Power-scaling. "Rules."

Official guidebooks are not constrained by restrictive stipulations made up by fans who place too much value on a power-measuring numbers system that the series itself spent a lot of time telling us weren't the be-all end-all focus of battles.

Every fictional universe has it's set of rules, and that's something basic because even in a fictional story there have to be some rules we as readers can comprehend because if not it would be impossible to have the reader involved on the story.
Dragon Ball of course had its own set of rules, as every other fictional or non fictional story.

Have you ever read Bobobo? That series based his humour on breaking those fictional rules in the most imaginative ways. And even in Bobobo there were some rules.

Vegeta got hit by a kaio-ken x4 Kamehameha and wasn't even seriously injured. Obviously this means that the 18,000 number was wrong and Vegeta's power level is actually 72,000, otherwise he would've instantly died, as even a blast with a x1.2 gap was shown in the Dodoria fight to be capable of one-shotting (Dodoria is commonly pegged at 20,000 by those who don't accept that Daiz). It bugs me that Toriyama didn't respect these basic power scaling rules. This means that the Dragon Ball manga is wrong and non-canon.

That's a pretty good example of someone not respecting the rules that were given on the manga. There's a basic rule in DB, and that rule is "every time a character is injured his power decreases". The more injured a character is, the more power he loses.

If Goku had to power up to KKx4 in order to win against Vegeta, when he was winning with the KKx3 just a moment before, is because the damage he took from the use of the KK was even higher than the one Vegeta took from Goku's attacks.
That's even more obvious when after the KKx4 is used Goku can barely sustain himself on foot, and Vegeta still has some strength to fight.

This is one rule the Daizenshuu brokes, and no, this is not Toriyama's fault. It's your fault for being unable to understand something that's been stated as a fact multiple times on the series.

Another proof that reading is not the same as understanding.

Even if you believed that, you'd still have Vegeta easily recovering from numerous hits from kaio-ken x3 Goku, while Cui vs Vegeta, which had literally the exact same battle powers involved, had Vegeta punching a hole through Cui and then taking him out in one shot.

It's pretty obvious that you didn't understand the manga. No, the difference between Goku and Vegeta would only have been the same if Goku had used the KKx3 at the very beginning of the fight. But he didn't, he used the KKx3 after being hit multiple times by Vegeta, so his power obviously wasn't +8000 when he activated the technique.
Furthermore, the technique damages Goku's body from the very first moment it's activated, even when Goku does it in a more softly manner (with a lowered power that then is raised) I suppose that in order to reduce the damage dealt at the moment of activation.
So no, Goku not only never was 50% stronger than Vegeta (which would have been an insta-kill as it's seen on the manga), but he got weaker every millisecond he had the technique activated, to the point where after it's deactivation he had lost even more energy (proportionally speaking) than Vegeta himself.

[hleV]

I so wish we knew which info in the guidebooks was taken from Toriyama and which from simply interpreting the series. I'd always questioned the battle powers of the Kamehameha scene.

Vegeta supposedly cannot alter his BP, so his Gyarik-Ho would still be 18,000. Now KKx3 Goku, who's supposedly 24,000, has his KHH equal to Vegeta's attack, and that only changes when Goku goes KKx4 (supposedly 32,000). If not for guidebooks, it would easily be assumed that Goku's KKx3 was now ~18,000, making his base reduced to ~6,000. And with KKx4, that number may have been reduced even more, overpowering Vegeta's 18,000 but not being enough to do much damage.

[freezamite]

I so wish we knew which info in the guidebooks was taken from Toriyama and which from simply interpreting the series. I'd always questioned the battle powers of the Kamehameha scene.

Vegeta supposedly cannot alter his BP, so his Gyarik-Ho would still be 18,000. Now KKx3 Goku, who's supposedly 24,000, has his KHH equal to Vegeta's attack, and that only changes when Goku goes KKx4 (supposedly 32,000). If not for guidebooks, it would easily be assumed that Goku's KKx3 was now ~18,000, making his base reduced to ~6,000. And with KKx4, that number may have been reduced even more, overpowering Vegeta's 18,000 but not being enough to do much damage.

Those estimations weren't taken from Toriyama for sure.
Regarding the power scaling, in my opinion it has to be a bit more aggressive than your estimations.
We start with Goku at 8.000+ against Nappa, and even when that fight was a clear win for Goku's part let's say he went from 8.000+ to 8.000 (so we can make the numbers easy) because of the use of KKx2 and some minimal lost for having to use a kamehame against him.

Now with Vegeta at 18.000 and Goku at 8.000 at the very beginning of the fight, let's scale a bit.
Goku starts loosing the fight, even when Vegeta was kicking his ass gently (he basically plays with him instead of going for an insta-kill). When Goku activates the KKx3 he still surpassed the 21.000 units of power, so he had to be still above 7.000 at that point.

We have to take into account three rules of the manga though:
1. At the very first moment of the KK activation, Goku's body receives some damage that is proportional to the strength of the KK. The stronger the KK used, the more damage Goku receives. That of course is translated into an immediate loss of power. This is valid as long persistent damage, or in other words, damage that doesn't disappear until the body has been healed.

2. When a character has pain, or in other words, immediate damage, his strength is also affected during those moments. How many times have we seen a character receiving a brutal punch and being unable to even stand up for a few seconds? But once this "immediate damage" or pain disappears, the strength is regained as if it never happened. Of course, a really strong hits deals a lot of "immediate" damage and some persistent or consolidated damage also, the most exaggerate case being a deadly blow that performs fatal immediate and persistent damage.
Since this is not a real loss of ki, but the pain making the movements of a certain character to become less effective, the defences of the body remain the same.

3. Energy can also be lost in a similar way when an effort is made. After using a heavy technique a character may be affected by "immediate fatigue" that can be recovered with some seconds of rest, or "consolidated fatigue" that will affect a character's strength until he rests for a long enough period of time.

Those rules are really easy to comprehend, as they're totally inspired in real life. If I try to sprint 100 meters I will end exhausted and even unable to run, but after a minute of rest I will be able to sprint again. Of course, since my body has made a considerable effort it will have "consolidated fatigue" that won't allow me to run as fast as the first time, and if I repeat this process of sprinting 100 meters and resting a minute several times I will eventually end exhausted enough as to not being able to even run until I rest for at least some hours or even days.
The same goes for the damage. Who hasn't received a hit strong enough to daze him for a short period of time in which he's unable to do shit due to the pain? And we will all agree in that after a few seconds - minutes we can recover from that hit (the pain is gone), even when some damage may still persist.

With those basic rules that are valid and respected during all the series except for when exceptions are explicitly made (for example, the androids had persistent damage immunity in terms of strength loss as well as fatigue immunity thanks to their infinite energy but they were still affected by the immediate pain. Or Kid bu that had immunity in both immediate pain and long term damage (not that he didn't feel the pain, but he didn't lose energy because of that) and fatigue) we can now start the power scaling.

Since the KK is dealing constant damage to Goku's body, as I said, his consistent damage was accumulating and thus his maximum strength was being lowered. We also know that this damage inflicted immediate pain at Goku's body (and it reaches a point where even Yajirobee makes Goku scream only touching him a bit), so while his "scoutter" strength was one, his effective strength was even lower.

Thanks to the fact that we know how much damage a 10-20% difference in power may do in a certain condition, we can assume that the effective power of Goku should be at around the 19.000 units.
In the same way, Vegeta was also loosing energy after each hit, both due to the immediate pain (which can explain why Goku was beating him all the time he used KKx3, but why he wasn't able to beat him when he activated KKx3 afterwards despite him not loosing any more strength) and due to the accumulated damage those brutal hits inflicted to him.

We don't know how much strength both Goku and Vegeta lost, we can estimate it with some other info that we have latter in the fight, but what we know is that after this first KKx3 activation Goku ends with approximately 1/3 of Vegeta's energy.

On the other hand, even when the saiyans were unable to modify their Ki, both Vegeta and Nappa had special techniques that allowed ki concentration. In other words, they were unable to control the amount of ki his body was emitting, but they were able to concentrate that ki to make stronger techniques like when Goku uses a Kamehame and it has more strength that a normal ki attack (that's the whole point of special ki attacks in fact).

I don't know how concentrated was the Garlik-Ho, but to make things easier I will put it at the same level of a Kame-Hame Ha.

Now from here it's only a matter of scaling respecting the numbers we know (not a lot of them, truth be told) and it's perfectly possible to scale the whole fight to coherent ciphers for each fighter. But those numbers, of course, will have nothing to do with what the Daizenshuu speculated, because the Daizenshuu ignored those basic rules of the manga when did the power scale process.

[Kaboom]

But those numbers, of course, will have nothing to do with what the Daizenshuu speculated, because the Daizenshuu ignored those basic rules of the manga when did the power scale process.

How many freaking times do you need to have this pointed out? There are no "rules." Nobody and nothing either in the manga itself or in supplemental material has ever laid out a system where they told us, "THIS will always happen at THIS power gap." We've seen a few examples of what CAN happen at certain power gaps, but there is absolutely nothing to say that every single battle with similar powers will end the same way. Why does this not get through to you and so many other people?!

There are no power gap rules. There are no power gap rules. There are no power gap rules. There are no power gap rules.

[KentalSSJ6]

Its official, this is gonna get good. Wait a minute I'm gonna get some popcorn for this one.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

But those numbers, of course, will have nothing to do with what the Daizenshuu speculated, because the Daizenshuu ignored those basic rules of the manga when did the power scale process.

How many freaking times do you need to have this pointed out? There are no rules." Nobody and nothing either in the manga itself or in supplemental material has ever laid out a system where they told us, "THIS will always happen at THIS power gap." We've seen a few examples of what CAN happen at certain power gaps, but there is absolutely nothing to say that every single battle with similar powers will end the same way. Why does this not get through to you and so many other people?!

There are no power gap rules.There are no power gap rules.There are no power gap rules.There are no power gap rules.

According to freezamite, battle powers work as life & energy points from the video games, meaning that from every punch that Goku gets, and every ki blast he uses, Goku's battle power drops. Unless I got it wrong?

Anyway, if I understood correctly, I disagree. Even in real life, when you get beaten up, you don't get weaker, and if you get a little more tired, you don't get any weaker either. Even if you get too tired, you don't get weaker as well, you just can't put all of your strength without some rest.

[Fionordequester]

Don't you think you guys are getting awfully worked up about a concept that Akira Toriyama never explained? He never said that Power Levels were hard science, and he never said that they weren't. VegettoEX thinks he did, I know, but all I got out of it was "the bad guys were idiots for relying on their scouters. That, and BP's can fluctuate a lot". You can think what you want, but the moment you start calling other people "idiots" for essentially having an opinion, well, I think you're taking this too far.

[Kaboom]

According to freezamite, battle powers work as life & energy points from the video games, meaning that from every punch that Goku gets, and every ki blast he uses, Goku's battle power drops. Unless I got it wrong?

No, that's pretty much what I gathered, too. And in some circumstances, I agree. At the very least, big things like the Kaio-Ken or a full-power Kamehameha WOULD use up a lot of energy and perhaps lower your overall power level. We actually have seen a few examples and citations of that in the series.

The problem, however, is that it's an unnecessary explanation only being brought up to support to a flawed, pointless, and tired stance of "I think these official numbers are impossible because I'm holding them to fan-made preconceptions about power gaps." Which is the basis of the message I'm trying so hard to get through about the thread's original question: complicated theories aren't needed because there's no rules about what can or can't be done at certain power gaps. None. Ever.

[freezamite]

How many freaking times do you need to have this pointed out? There are no rules.

Firstly, calm down, dude. You repeating one time after another that there are no rules, when in EVERY SINGLE MANGA THERE HAVE TO BE SOME RULES, won't make it true.

Nobody and nothing either in the manga itself or in supplemental material has ever laid out a system where they told us, "THIS will always happen at THIS power gap." We've seen a few examples of what CAN happen at certain power gaps, but there is absolutely nothing to say that every single battle with similar powers will end the same way.

WHAT? This is plain common sense!!! If a certain power gap is enough to beat someone, it's only logical to assume that this same power gap will be enough to win UNLESS THE OPPOSITE IS STATED.

This is the same as assuming that since it was never said that Nail could regenerate one leg if it needed to, he couldn't. This is going against the most basic reading comprehension rules. I mean, come on!

Why does this not get through to you and so many other people?!

Because it's a fallacy? There isn't a single fight that breaks that "power gap rule", and that "rule" is confirmed by a FACT of the manga. There wasn't anything said or done that could point to that fact being an exception. I mean, if it was said at one point of the story that Raditz was more delicate than what should be normal for someone with his strength, you would be right about that "10% power gap rule" being only applicable to Raditz. But that was never said or implied unless you prove the opposite, so it's a basic matter of coherence to think that a power gap like this is enough.

Furthermore, we have other fights that confirm that this rule applies, like the one between Vegeta and Dodoria (which at best was a 20% power gap in favour of Vegeta and it was a totally one-sided fight) for example.

According to freezamite, battle powers work as life & energy points from the video games, meaning that from every punch that Goku gets, and every ki blast he uses, Goku's battle power drops. Unless I got it wrong?

More than in a video game (there are tons of videogames, and a Call of Duty has a different point system than a Final Fantasy to put some examples), similar to what happens on real life.

Anyway, if I understood correctly, I disagree. Even in real life, when you get beaten up, you don't get weaker

Have you ever seen a boxing match where a boxer takes some heavy damage? This isn't a boxing match, but look at how the white guy is left after receiving some sever punches by Kimbo slice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjGGEP6h2UY

You can't say that someone like him can't stand up because he got tired after less than a minute of punching. It's obvious that the damage he received left him at that state. Of course, DB is a manga and the fights last for more than a minute, but there are TONS and TONS of examples of characters loosing strength after being hurt.

I mean, this not only is a stated fact on every single fight of the manga, it was even a central aspect of the Buu saga. ¡Babidi precisely collected the energy that the fighters lost through their injuries!

and if you get a little more tired, you don't get any weaker either. Even if you get too tired, you don't get weaker as well, you just can't put all of your strength without some rest.

Well, isn't that the same as getting weaker? I mean, I'm not saying that if Goku gets injured in a fight he lose energy permanently and that he has to train to recover it, I'm saying that while he is still injured he can't pull out his full strength and this can be demonstrated in tons of fights of the manga.
Of course, once a character rests/gets-healed he recovers his full strength, but remember that we are power-scaling through the different stages of a certain fight, with no recoveries made in the middle of it. In that context, a fighter's power becomes lower and lower considering those factors and I can demonstrate this to you with manga facts if you want me to.

The problem, however, is that it's an unnecessary explanation only being brought up to support to a flawed, pointless, and tired stance of "I think these official numbers are impossible because I'm holding them to fan-made preconceptions about power gaps."

Let's see if I understand it right. So you're saying that what I'm saying is effectively stated on the manga, but that because of a guide that is as official as any anime filler says the opposite the manga suddenly has "no rules" and anyone saying the opposite is automatically wrong.
In other words, now a guide that wasn't even made by Toriyama has more credibility than the consolidated facts of the manga, yeah, whatever...

[Kaboom]

The problem is that you're not considering anything in the battles BUT the numbers, something faulty that Dragon Ball fans have been doing for ages. Sure, if two mindless robots are just standing still and shooting beams at each other, then the one with a 20% power advantage will eventually overcome and defeat the one without it.

But these characters AREN'T mindless beam-shooting robots. There's more going into these fights than just seeing who's got the higher power level. What if two characters are exactly equal in power? How will the winner be decided then? What if one character is twice as strong as the other one but has absolutely no ki skills whatsoever, while his opponent is a master of ki use and manipulation? What if one character has more ki than another, but he's already physically tired from fighting someone else? What if two characters are equal in power, but one is enraged while the other is scared out of his wits? What if a stronger character just stands there and lets someone hit him? And so on and so forth.

Analogy time. Assume someone is able to jog a mile in 8 minutes. That's their average, but it doesn't mean they'll be able to do that EVERY day. One day they might be sick or their allergies are acting up. One day they might be held back by bad weather. One day they might have stubbed their toe earlier that day and be slightly limping. One day they might be feeling REALLY good and be able to run that same mile in 6.5 minutes instead.

In the same way, there's more to these fantasy battles than just comparing numbers and statistics. You have to consider other factors like the characters' mindsets, physical conditions, skill levels, and so forth. You can't just say "well A is 1.2x stronger than B so A can and will easily stomp B." All it takes is for Character A to have a headache that day and suddenly Character B's laying some hurt on him.

I'll say it again. There are no "rules" for power scaling, because Dragon Ball battles are not just about numbers. That's a fact which every in-universe fan needs to learn sooner or later. To keep chanting "these few battles with numbers attached to them happened this way, thus EVERY battle with similar gaps will end the same way," and then turn around and use that self-crafted "rule" to call foul on official or other fans' numbers is... well I don't know any words for it that wouldn't just sound like flaming.

[freezamite]

The problem is that you're not considering anything in the battles BUT the numbers, something faulty that Dragon Ball fans have been doing for ages. Sure, if two mindless robots are just standing still and shooting beams at each other, then the one with a 20% power advantage will eventually overcome and defeat the one without it.

False. I'm considering EVERYTHING. The 10% rule applies of course in a normal situation between equally good fighters. In that context, the 10% difference in power is decisive.

But these characters AREN'T mindless beam-shooting robots. There's more going into these fights than just seeing who's got the higher power level. What if two characters are exactly equal in power? How will the winner be decided then?

By other factors stated by the manga, but not by suppositions made out of nowhere. Injured Freezer at 100% of his power was at the same level of Goku SSJ, why did he lost then? Because his body wasn't able to hold that fighting rhythm and his strength decreased faster than Goku's strength.
There's always a factor that determines the outcome of a fight, and of course I'm also considering this when I power scale.

What if one character is twice as strong as the other one but has absolutely no ki skills whatsoever, while his opponent is a master of ki use and manipulation?

You mean like when Nappa fought against Goku with his ki perturbed by his emotions, and he got beaten despite having nearly the same power as him?
It's "a bit" weird that you accuse me of ignoring those kind of facts while you're defending a guide that precisely fails at considering things like this. Its the Daizenshuu that ignores the fact that Nappa was fighting much below it's real capacity because of his emotions, and gives him a power level of 4000, when he demonstrated that once calmed he was far stronger than that

What if one character has more ki than another, but he's already physically tired from fighting someone else?

Again, the same thing. So the Daizenshuu is the one saying that Goku at KKx4 had 32.000 because they limit their absolutely superficial analysis to KK = Goku's strength multiplied without considering anything like the injuries Goku had received prior to that point, and you're telling me that I'm the one who's wrong because I take those facts into account in my power scaling

What if two characters are equal in power, but one is enraged while the other is scared out of his wits? What if a stronger character just stands there and lets someone hit him? And so on and so forth.

Can you even demonstrate that I'm ignoring those facts, when you are defending a guide that does PRECISELY what you're criticizing to me? I mean, the one that power scales based on the context of a certain situation it's me, and what I'm criticizing of the Daizenshuu is precisely them not doing that.
And you, the #1 Daizenshuu defender, are criticizing me for supposedly not doing something that not only I'm constantly doing, but also defending a guide that has the flaws you're describing and attributing to me? Is this even for real? I mean, COME ON!!!

Analogy time. Assume someone is able to jog a mile in 8 minutes. That's their average, but it doesn't mean they'll be able to do that EVERY day. One day they might be sick or their allergies are acting up. One day they might be held back by bad weather. One day they might have stubbed their toe earlier that day and be slightly limping. One day they might be feeling REALLY good and be able to run that same mile in 6.5 minutes instead.

Yes, AND EVERY SINGLE TIME THAT A SPECIAL CONDITION LIKE THIS HAPPENS THE MANGA HAS TO EXPLAIN IT TO US, like when Goku was fighting while being ill against the androids.
But what you can't do is to assume informations that aren't said on the manga to conclude that the manga has no internal coherency at all. If there exists a special condition for a certain situation, the manga has to tell us this is the case, otherwise I could even affirm that Pilaf was stronger than Perfect Cell, but that he was in fact trying to help Goku to get stronger and this is why he never showed that power. Hey, on the manga it's never said that Pilaf is weaker than Perfect Cell, and every time Pilaf got scared of Goku was because he didn't want Goku to know his real intentions, and he put an act.
That's A FALLACY, you can't do this kind of assumptions unless the manga tells you to.

In the same way, there's more to these fantasy battles than just comparing numbers and statistics. You have to consider other factors like the characters' mindsets, physical conditions, skill levels, and so forth. You can't just say "well A is 1.2x stronger than B so A can and will easily stomp B." All it takes is for Character A to have a headache that day and suddenly Character B's laying some hurt on him.

True, but what it's a fallacy is to assume a character has lost because of a headache when the manga never tells us anything about that. If a certain character is affected by a certain special condition, it's the manga's job to make us as readers know it.

I'll say it again. There are no "rules" for power scaling, because Dragon Ball battles are not just about numbers. That's a fact which every in-universe fan needs to learn sooner or later.

There are rules, that are affected by other rules. If a character has a power of 10 but because of a headache he is fighting with a power of 5 and loses against someone with a power of 7, then those are a conjunction of rules that work together. There's a rule of power difference, that is applied over another rule that makes that a character with a headache can't fight at his full power, and the conjunction of those rules determine the outcome of the fight.
Look, the one defending the Daizenshuu it's you, and the one criticizing the Daizenshuu for not considering those kinds of factors it's me.
Once you realize that, we will be able to have a good discussion about DB and power scaling.

To keep chanting "these few battles with numbers attached to them happened this way, thus EVERY battle with similar gaps will end the same way," and then turn around and use that self-crafted "rule" to call foul on official or other fans' numbers is... well I don't know any words for it that wouldn't just sound like flaming.

Yeah, speaking of words that wouldn't sound like flaming... imagine how much I had to censure my writing while I saw how you accused me to do something that in fact is constantly being done by your beloved Daizenshuu guide.

[Kaboom]

... Anyone else starting to think this thread should have ended with Rocketman's first reply? I'm seriously starting to get a headache from how inane this all is, and looking back, it's really been this way since the first page.

[Godo]

I think that all similar threads should end with similar replies such as Rocketman's.
That, or that any strength-related posts should be contained in one single thread (but that increases the risk of similar minds acknowledging their odd obsession as something normal).

[dbzfan7]

... Anyone else starting to think this thread should have ended with Rocketman's first reply? I'm seriously starting to get a headache from how inane this all is, and looking back, it's really been this way since the first page.

This and the Kaio-Ken thread...I haven't bothered with either....but you showed me it was a wise choice to not get involved