At which point is KK x10 activated?

[freezamite]

You can't assume though that he said that to Vegeta and the others said that though just by that statement. Something that significant would be logically have been shown, because it's not exactly an irrelevant bit of information amidst what else we get.

Do you really think that Vegeta knowing that or not is anything relevant to the story? Even fi he knew (and as I say, he did), it doesn't imply that he was over Goku's 50% of power. It only implies that when he said what he said about Goku surpassing him he knew Goku was at 50% of his strength.

Goku exits the Room of Spirit and Time, commenting about how he's a lot stronger than Vegeta and stuff, then leaves.
Vegeta, being Vegeta, doesn't really believe him, but admits that he can see the superiority of the form that he and Gohan have taken and how useful that would be in battle.
Goku then powers up to 50% strength, shocking everyone outside of Gohan.
Vegeta realizes that Goku has surpassed him with the power he has sensed, and orders Piccolo to hurry up and enter the Room so that Vegeta can quickly get another year in.
Vegeta, a year later, feels confident he's surpassed Goku again, but is shocked and bewildered when Goku finally reveals his full strength.

Vegeta was confident that he had surpassed Goku again with that additional year in the Room of Spirit and Time, but obviously in truth he was nowhere close. If he had any idea that Goku was only using half his strength when powered up for Karin, then he would have known what to shoot for, and wouldn't have believed he were stronger than Goku with the gain he had actually made. If anything, Vegeta's assumption that he had surpassed Goku proves that he didn't know it was only 50% of Goku's full strength.

Basically it'd be like this.

It could be just like you say BUT with Vegeta knowing that Goku showed his 50%.

Vegeta - "Damn! I'm at 35 and Kakarot is at 60! No matter what, he always seems to be one step ahead of me! Piccolo, go train so I can hurry up"

One year of training later

Vegeta - "Now I am at 70! You can do what you want Kakarot, but I will be the one that defeats Cell!"

After watching Goku power up

Vegeta - "Kakarot was at 120! So that was his true power! I thought that his 60 was his true power, but it was only half!"

Yes, if that was what he said then you would be right. But his phrase ended at "so that was his true power" and that without the second part of the sentence implies knowledge.
Think about the example I put with the cars before. Does it has any sense to say "So that is your car!" when you already thought your friend had a BMW and he now shows you his Ferrari?
No, not at all. On the other hand, something like "wow so this is your real car! You fooled me with that BMW" it's fine. If the second part of the sentence is lost, then the phrase has to be read as "hahah I knew your BMW wasn't your car, so it was this Ferrari!"

Vegeta's whole "So that was his true power!" isn't meant to be taken as a confirmation that he knew Goku wasn't at full strength before, but more of a bewilderment that what he had sensed before at Karin's wasn't his full strength by any means.

Look, we can't know what Toriyama was thinking at that point, but what's undeniable is that the sentence in the way is written has to be read with that sense, because otherwise it lacks sense.
Furthermore, we've got TONS of examples of situations where someone thought he knew someone's full power and there wasn't A SINGLE ONE with a sentence like this, so to assume that Toriyama wrote that bad, you have to demonstrate that Vegeta couldn't possibly knew Goku was at his 50%. He could.
So to assume bad writing by Toriyama's part only because what's said doesn't go in line with what you think or would like it to be it's accommodating the manga to your version of the story, and not your version of the story to the manga.

He could've, but he was never implied to have known.

Until he expresses in a way that confirmed that he knew.

That's because the opponent often had yet to show what they were capable of. Even #16 says Vegeta is stronger than Cell, which was shown to be way off. Android #16 was one of the best when it came to measuring power. If he could be shown to be inaccurate, it's only right that others could.

Android #16 had a power radar, so it would be closer to a scoutter than to the power sensing a human/sayan has. Look, Cell clearly said he was "warming up" against Vegeta, so we already knew that he wasn't showing all his strength, and he could very well be a bit below Vegeta, or even more, doing what Goku did fighting against the Ginyu squad (increasing his power only at the precise moment it was needed in order to fool the scoutters).

That has nothing to do with Vegeta being confident at beating final form Freezer (yes, he was holding back a lot of power, but he was still much, much stronger than vegeta at that point) or Cell being confident about beating SSJ2 Gohan (Gohan didn't power up after Cell's power up, come on, I can't believe I have to explain this to you. And then the one putting excuses to avoid admitting when I'm wrong is me?)

That's your interpretation.

No, that's the only interpretation of that sentence unless you modify it like it has been done above.

Again, "if" he knew. Since it was never implied in the story that Piccolo knew

So you're telling me that Piccolo who could see/hear what was happening in the Karin's tower didn't do it? And why wouldn't he focus on what was happening there, when in fact, we know he was interested on it?

Do you realize how your entire stance continuously comes down to "if" this or that was mentioned by Piccolo? Talk about assumptions.

What? No, my entire stance comes from the FACT that Vegeta knew. Look, you can modify that phrase as much as you want, you can say that Toriyama was a bad writer and that he was mistaken and you know it because you read his mind at the moment, but what's written on the manga is written on the manga. Period.

Cell was confident because he still had a lot of power he had yet to use. He was way off, but even Goku seemed to be in awe after seeing Cell's full-power.

Which AGAIN confirms how imprecise power sensing is. Look, Ginyu had 120.000 units, and he had much more power in reserve than what Cell had during his fight against Gohan. But when he saw Goku's strength at 180.000 he pissed his pants and did the migration trick.
If Cell had known how strong Gohan was after becoming SSJ2 he wouldn't have acted so cocky, in fact, he realizes (and the rest of the z-fighters) how strong Gohan is after being beaten by him.

You are trying to demonstrate that power sensing is accurate, and you put as an example of that a scene of Goku & the others being unable to tell the difference between Gohan and Cell when Gohan was MUCH STRONGER? It's as if you were trying to defend my stance...

Vegeta can't tell if someone's hiding their power or not. This information would have to be told to him directly. If Piccolo never shared this info, how would Vegeta know one way or another that Goku wasn't at full-power?

Don't you see how your whole reasoning is hanging around an assumption? This is the difference between what you say and what I say:
My procedure when interpreting the manga: First I identify a FACT. Since Vegeta knows that this was his first time sensing Goku's power, that's a FACT demonstrating that he knew he had never seen Goku's full power before. Then, TO EXPLAIN THAT STATED FACT, I assume that Piccolo had to explain it to him, because otherwise he had no way to know.
Your procedure when interpreting the manga: You make your own assumptions, those being: Piccolo didn't explain anything to Vegeta and the others, and/or Vegeta wasn't escalating when he reacted at Goku's power. And then, in front of a FACT that demonstrates that those are invalid assumptions, you say that this is a problem of the manga because it was poorly written.

No, you can't assume a mistake by Toriyama's part if there exists the possibility to explain those same facts with other assumptions/theories.

He talks as if he never sensed or saw Goku as a Super Saiyan before.

Yes, because the other time he sensed Goku's SSJ power he wasn't at his full power, AND HE KNEW. You're in fact confirming what I'm saying. This kind of expression implies that they knew this was their first time sensing Goku's real power, and as you demonstrated yourself in your prior message, this was what really happened.

This is before he even starts fighting #19. With that said, "So this is Goku as a Super Saiyan" is as much of a line of discovery as Vegeta's "So this is his true power" line during the Cell Games.

Look, they say the same because the situation it's exactly the SAME.
When Goku turned into a SSJ in front of Trunks he didn't have the intention to fight against him, so when he was in front of the android #19 releasing his full power, Ten Shin acted as if he was seeing Goku's full power as a SSJ for the first time, and yes, even before the fight properly started.
In the EXACT SAME WAY, when Vegeta's felt Goku's power at the Cell games ALSO BEFORE THE FIGHT PROPERLY STARTED (his reaction is just after Goku's power up, and after that it came Cell's power up and it wasn't until after it that the fight properly started) he acted as if he was discovering Goku's full power for the first time, which MEANS that he knew that he hadn't sensed it before.

Your example actually confirms what I'm saying!!!

They can't suppress their power in Super Saiyan at this point, so naturally they're at full-power upon transforming.

What? Can you actually demonstrate with a solid fact that Goku was unable to hid his power as a super saiyan at that point?

Uh, Tenshinhan's quote on Super Saiyan Goku was before he started fighting.

Yes, and also Vegeta's quote. This starts to seem more an excuse than an actual argument of yours...

and I'm not seeing why he has to be aware that Goku wasn't using all of his power.

Well, you pretty much demonstrated it yourself with your own example, I mean, if you are not aware of it it's because and with all my respects you don't want to see it or because you simply lack the reading skills to see it.
I mean, it would be easier for you to admit you're wrong regarding that...

He could possibly know, yes. He could possibly be unaware of this, too.

Yes, but he expressed himself in a way that implied that he knew, so even when him not knowing it was possible, the very moment he speaks as if he knew it's because he really knew.

Him explaining this so quickly, and not being shown or indicated is more difficult to justify.

Quickly? The scene doesn't go back to the palace of God until after the scene at the tower of Karin ended. So are you telling me that in the meantime when Goku and Karin were conversing Piccolo didn't have time to say something like "wow, and he just said that this was only his 50%!"?

You citing Yamcha's piece of dialogue didn't change anything because it mentions that he wasn't fighting yet, which Goku wasn't during Tenshinhan's dialogue, either.

And also during Vegeta's dialogue (both of them in fact)! It's the exact same situation!!!

Freeza never used 70% of his power before fighting Super Saiyan Goku. He made that jump in power when he knocked Super Saiyan Goku away with his kiai.

Yes, I already know that. You said that Freezer's reaction at Goku's 1000% increase in strength was possible thanks to him being much stronger than that.
But on the other hand, Freezer's increase from 50% to 70% (a 40% increase in terms of strength) was enough to knock Goku SSJ away when he:
1. Was aware that Freezer was at his 50% AND Freezer said he would increase his power.
2. Was at a much bigger distance from Freezer, thus having more time to react to the surprise attack than Freezer had.
3. Had the ability to sense Freezer's power, unlike Freezer who couldn't have sensed Goku's increase in power with the KKx10.
4. Was looking to Freezer, so even if his power sensing capability wasn't fast enough he could've react thanks to him seeing Freezer attack.
5. Freezer's increase was an order of magnitude lower than Goku's increase, so even when still a surprise attack, it was much less of a surprise in terms of how much the strength was increased.
6. Also according to you, the difference in power between 70% Freezer and SSJ Goku was more or less the same as the one between Goku KKx10 and Freezer at 50% of his power (84 - 150 vs 30 - 60).

And despite of all that, Goku wasn't able to react at Freezer's sudden increase while Freezer according to you was able to react thanks to his superior strength.
That, of course, without considering other inconsistencies like Goku having black eyes with a KK aura or him not having an aura on the following pages (which also means that the KKx10 was drawn without an aura).

Also, that wasn't a Kaio-Ken x10. It was most likely the regular Kaio-Ken. The Kaio-Ken x10 was the reserve power Goku was planning to use whenever Freeza got serious.

How is that? So now you're saying that this wasn't a KKx10?


But if that was according to you a regular KK (which would still imply a 100% increase, 2.5 times bigger than Freezer going from 50% to 70%) and not the KKx10, then at which point was the KKx10 activated? Because for pages after this scene Kaito says that Goku has the KKx10 activated...

Look, you've moved your goalpost here. You were saying one time after another that this was the KKx10 being activated, and now seeing how you can't explain what happened on the manga you say it was a regular KK and not the KKx10.
Sorry, but this seems an excuse to me, an excuse to avoid acknowledging you were wrong about that.

[Darkprince410]

If he knew Goku wasn't emitting his full strength (more importantly thought/knew it was only half) when he powered up to show to Karin, then he wouldn't have thought that he had surpassed Goku with that second year of training. His entire belief in his ability to surpass Goku was assuming that Goku was demonstrating his full strength earlier, and that in surpassing it, he had surpassed Goku. He clearly had no idea that Goku was holding back, and his "So that is his true power!" is an exasperated statement of bewilderment, that he can't believe he's so strong, not one of confirmation.

If it were confirming where he thought/knew Goku was, then there are two problems.

1) Why would he have believed he had surpassed Goku with the second trip into the Room of Spirit and Time?
2) Why would he have a look of sheer dumbfounded awe if he had already knew what his true strength was.

You say that the line can only be taken in the way you're presenting it, but truthfully I can't see it being used in any way other than how myself and the others have pointed out, that he's trying to grasp what he's now sensing, and that he is far beyond what Vegeta had first thought he was capable of.

And yes, whether or not he knew Goku was at 50% of his full strength at the time would be a significant change to the story. In not knowing that he was holding back any of his strength at the time, Vegeta's comment about Goku surpassing him results in Vegeta being less than half as strong as Goku at that point, whereas your take on the events, with him somehow knowing it despite no evidence being given that he came about that knowledge, would indicate that he could be stronger than Goku's 50% strength, but obviously weaker than his 100%

[freezamite]

If he knew Goku wasn't emitting his full strength (more importantly thought/knew it was only half) when he powered up to show to Karin, then he wouldn't have thought that he had surpassed Goku with that second year of training. His entire belief in his ability to surpass Goku was assuming that Goku was demonstrating his full strength earlier, and that in surpassing it, he had surpassed Goku. He clearly had no idea that Goku was holding back, and his "So that is his true power!" is an exasperated statement of bewilderment, that he can't believe he's so strong, not one of confirmation.

Now you're turning back to your points about a precise power sensing that allowed for perfect power scaling. Look, from the very first moment we see a weaker character with power-sensing abilities to think he can beat much stronger characters it's demonstrated that this reasoning of yours is false.
Besides that, "So that is his true power!" it's an exasperated statement of bewilderment, but also a confirmation that Vegeta knew this was his first time in front of Goku's power.

If you can't explain how it's possible for Cell to think he can beat SSJ2 Gohan, or for Vegeta to think he was above Final form Freezer if power sensing is something that accurate, your whole argument falls like a pile of cards.

If it were confirming where he thought/knew Goku was, then there are two problems.

1) Why would he have believed he had surpassed Goku with the second trip into the Room of Spirit and Time?
2) Why would he have a look of sheer dumbfounded awe if he had already knew what his true strength was.

If even in more direct scenarios that doesn't even involve power scaling, where a simple direct comparison could be made, we have those kinds of situations, how are you telling me it's not possible on that context.
1) Why would Cell believe he had surpassed SSJ2 Gohan after releasing his full power?
2) Why would he have a look of sheer dumbfounded awe if he had already knew what his true strength was?

My opinion is that power sensing is inaccurate enough for situations like this to happen. In your opinion it's impossible for Vegeta to think that because power sensing is precise enough to do this kind of power scaling. Well then, I'm sure you will answer my two questions.

You say that the line can only be taken in the way you're presenting it, but truthfully I can't see it being used in any way other than how myself and the others have pointed out, that he's trying to grasp what he's now sensing, and that he is far beyond what Vegeta had first thought he was capable of.

Yes, I'm not even negating that. The same applies to Cell, he was trying to grasp the situation even when he was sensing Gohan's SSJ2 power.

And yes, whether or not he knew Goku was at 50% of his full strength at the time would be a significant change to the story. In not knowing that he was holding back any of his strength at the time, Vegeta's comment about Goku surpassing him results in Vegeta being less than half as strong as Goku at that point, whereas your take on the events, with him somehow knowing it despite no evidence being given that he came about that knowledge, would indicate that he could be stronger than Goku's 50% strength, but obviously weaker than his 100%

No. Him knowing that Goku was using 50% of his power didn't imply that Vegeta was above that level. It could still be at only 45% of Goku's power, but that being said, facts are facts and what's said is said. Pretty irrelevant from a story telling point of view.

Now, and moving to the topic that originated that thread, I would like to hear your explanations about the KKx10 matter, because I'm more interested in that. I don't care to discuss about Vegeta knowing or not knowing, but could be please also discuss the KKx10 topic?
Thanks!

[dbzfan7]

It's the war of attrition...let's go get some popcorn.

[Darkprince410]

I've already said everything that I've wanted to say in regards to the Kaiou-ken 10x situation. From everything said and suggested in the story, he was holding back from using the 10x until after Freeza had went to 50%. He had a lot of power that he was still willing to use in battle, but hadn't done so yet (with the 10x being the highest he was willing to use), and his stamina was what let him survive the few blows that Freeza had delivered to him.

This whole "x% gap between them would instantly result in one person killing another" doesn't work, because you're basing those numbers off an extremely skilled, durable character in comparison to ones that have never fought a real battle in their lives (as established by Freeza himself). As Kaboom pointed out in another topic, what works for one scenario doesn't automatically mean that the same will work every time.

[freezamite]

I've already said everything that I've wanted to say in regards to the Kaiou-ken 10x situation. From everything said and suggested in the story, he was holding back from using the 10x until after Freeza had went to 50%. He had a lot of power that he was still willing to use in battle, but hadn't done so yet (with the 10x being the highest he was willing to use), and his stamina was what let him survive the few blows that Freeza had delivered to him.

No, that's you insisting in the same points you've already made tons of times, instead of answering the conflicting parts that your arguments have with the manga.

This whole "x% gap between them would instantly result in one person killing another" doesn't work, because you're basing those numbers off an extremely skilled, durable character in comparison to ones that have never fought a real battle in their lives (as established by Freeza himself). As Kaboom pointed out in another topic, what works for one scenario doesn't automatically mean that the same will work every time.

I see that you've found the definitive mantra, the good-for-all explanation that will always be valid. The "there are no rules" rule.
So now it seems that Raditz, who was going from planet to planet fighting constantly, was someone "that never fought a real battle".
And on the other hand, Gohan, a 4 year old kid that was never trained in the art of fighting becomes "an extremely skilled, durable character".

But what astonishes me the most is that the same ones saying that "there are no rules" are the most belligerent when it comes to consider other possibilities.
I mean, it would seem that someone stating that there are no rules would be really tolerant with other people's approaches to the manga, because since there are no rules, everything is equally valid. But no, that's not the case. It seems that there is only one "valid" approach to the manga, and that "valid" approach lacks any sense because there are no rules but at the same time there can't be other approaches.

Wait a second because this is something "truly difficult" to understand. So if I read it well it seems that there are no rules nor internal coherency on that manga, but the only valid explanation is the one you give based on what you want to believe.

Are you sure that what you want to say is what you've written, and not that the only rule is that YOU put the rules?

But then I have another legit question, not about the manga, but about that "no rules" thing. If since the beginning there had been no rules besides "I'm right and you're wrong", why have you been trying to use the manga to demonstrate your points for at least 3 pages of discussion?
How is that the "no rules" rule has come ONLY after I've demonstrated that every single proof you were trying to bring in order to support your version of the story was in fact contradictory or invalid?

Why did you bother to look at the Ten Shin Han line of dialogue, that one that at the end has helped me to demonstrate that what Vegeta says has to be interpreted the way I say, if at the end it didn't matter because this manga is a mess from top to bottom (according to you) and there can't exist any internal coherence besides the one you magically know as the only one valid?

Well, to me it seems that you've realized that your opinion on the manga was wrong and you decided to put an excuse instead of recognizing that maybe there are some parts of the manga you didn't understand completely...

[Darkprince410]

No, I don't believe my interpretation of the manga is wrong at all. I don't see the "conflicting" information in Goku's fight with Freeza because the events that play out work well enough in the way that I see them. I re-iterated my statement again because as I see it, that's how the events took place.Toriyama wasn't going for anything really deep or thought-provoking when he created the story for the manga, and instead approached it in a way to where the simplest way of interpreting it is pretty much the best way.

1) No indication whatsoever, visually or otherwise, that Goku is using the Kaiou-ken prior to Freeza jumping to 50% = He's not using the Kaiou-ken
2) Statements from Goku, Piccolo, and Freeza show that Goku has a lot of power that he's not using yet in battle, but is willing to use = He's yet to use the Kaiou-ken 10x yet

If there's nothing in the manga even hinting at things like him using a 15x Kaiou-ken or something along those lines, you can't say that he is to support your argument. What you're doing would be no different than if I said that Superman, off-panel, flew into Namek and tried holding the core together, and that's why it took so long for it to explode. Both have absolutely nothing in the manga supporting them, but we'd be using them to try and support our views of what happened in the events of the story.

We're accepting of outlooks on things, except when said outlooks blatantly contradict what is shown in the manga. Your belief that Goku's using the 10x Kaiou-ken the entire course of the fight not only disregards the fact that there's no physical signs that he is, but also the fact that he himself clearly indicates he hasn't yet, and doesn't until after Freeza makes the jump in power.

I also fail to see what you mean in regards to the Raditz/Gohan thing. Gohan landed a single blow to him while the latter was unprotected, and received some damage from it. I don't see how that would have any bearing on why your x% gap theory works.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

*Since we're back on-topic, I'll just skip my original reply and focus on the Freeza battle*

Pretty much what DP said, really. We're told what level of Kaio-Ken Goku is capable of. Is it conceivable that he could use a Kaio-Ken x12? Well, yes. However, Goku never had any intentions on using anything higher than a Kaio-Ken x10. The story makes it very clear that the Kaio-Ken x20 was an increase he thought was worth trying, since Freeza was already well beyond using only half of his power. Might as well use all of your power in that situation.

Anyway, Goku and Freeza were fighting on equal terms, with neither having an overwhelming advantage. Freeza appeared to be the more powerful one, but Goku was close enough to his power to fight him without any Kaio-Ken. We even have quotes to help us understand just how powerful Goku had become:

Chapter: 306 (DBZ 112), P12.2
Context: after he fully heals
Goku: “I’ve gotten strong! My power just keeps gushing forth…! Unbelievable…! And here I thought I was already about at my limits…This is enough to scare even me…”

Goku had just stated a few chapters before that even if he fully healed, he probably wouldn't be strong enough to fight Freeza's 3rd form. Now he's gotten so strong and scared of his new power, despite the fact that this power would still be well inferior to Freeza's now final form, which is even more powerful than his previous form?

Chapter: 307 (DBZ 113), P6.1
Kuririn: “A-are you really Goku…? Your ki feels different than it did before…”

Chapter: 307 (DBZ 113), P8.2-3
Vegeta: “He’s not the same Kakarot as before…S-seems he’s finally overcome the wall of his limits…Is he a Super Saiyan…!?”

All of this is before he even shows he has the power and speed to not only knock Freeza away, but also deflect all of his finger beams. With that, we know Goku is more powerful than everyone except Freeza. This is Goku without using any form of the Kaio-Ken.

Goku and Freeza continue to have a close fight until Freeza catches him in that entrapment ball, which Goku using incredible speed to evade the explosion. Aftewards, we're told directly by Piccolo that neither are fighting seriously:

Chapter: 310 (DBZ 116), P11.1-3
Piccolo: “Freeza’s playing around…If he felt like it, he has the power to wipe out this whole planet…”
Gohan: “Fa-father…”
Piccolo: “Don’t worry about him…That bastard isn’t serious either…”

Chapter: 310 (DBZ 116), P13.3-4
Context: after Goku escapes from the entrapment ball
Piccolo: “The instant of the explosion, he used super speed to free himself from the paralysis…”
Gohan: “H-he did something that incredible…in that instant?”
Piccolo: “They’re monsters, both of them…Damn it all…”

So, we know neither are fighting seriously--which means Goku's not using Kaio-Ken x10. Hey, even Freeza says as much:

Chapter: 310 (DBZ 116), P14.1-2
Context: after fighting with Goku for some time
Freeza: “I’m starting to feel like that’s enough warming up…”
Goku: “Me too”.

The two then have a brief battle where Freeza's not using hands. Goku eventually bites Freeza's tail and pummels him a bit before Freeza uses his hands. Freeza admits Goku is astoundingly strong, while noting that Goku's also holding back a good amount of power. Freeza can't sense Chi, but he was able to get a good understanding of Goku's power just by fighting him. Goku complies with Freeza's assessment, so Goku wasn't using Kaio-Ken x10 at this point:

Chapter: 312 (DBZ 118), P2.3-6
Freeza: “You’re quite confident. But I’ve noticed that though you told me you’d fight seriously, you still have a considerable amount of power remaining…”
Goku: “So the jig’s up, huh?”
Freeza: “Even taking that into consideration, in my estimation… If I put out about 50%, that is to say, half of my maximum power, I'll be able to turn you into space dust..."

The Kaio-Ken x10 is the strongest power-up readers would be aware of by this point, since it's specifically mentioned by Goku once he's finished his gravity training:

Chapter: 270 (DBZ 76), P11.1-4
Context: Goku has turned the gravity back down to 1g.
Goku: “Hwoo!!! I…I feel so light… …It’s like I’m not even here!!! Hoo hoo hoo!!! I’m light, I’m light! And strong, strong! Like this, I can definitely withstand about a 10-fold Kaio-Ken!”

Before they even start fighting seriously, Piccolo makes it clear that these two are powerful beyond comprehension:

Chapter: 312 (DBZ 118), P4.5-6
Gohan: “F-father can win…”
Piccolo: “We can’t know that…Their power far surpasses our understanding…”

This means neither is obviously stronger than the other, according to Piccolo. That's how strong they are. With that, Freeza uses 50% of his power and absolutely crushes Goku. Goku has no choice but to use the Kaio-Ken x10 to fight Freeza. His efforts are futile, though, as mentioned by Piccolo:

Chapter: 312 (DBZ 118), P13.2
Context: as Freeza beats up on Goku
Piccolo: “Th-this is bad…There’s too much of a gap between the power they were hiding…”

With the above quote, we know that both were holding-back a significant amount of power in the initial part of their battle. Goku's Kaio-Ken x10 power simply paled in comparison to Freeza's power. Lastly, we have this:

Chapter: 312 (DBZ 118), P14.2-5
Tenshinhan: "There’s nothing to worry about. Goku will win this match…Aren't you forgetting about the Kaio-Ken? As he is now, Goku is able to endure a maximum of up to about 10 times his power, right?"
Kaio: "Unfortunately... That Ten-Fold Kaio-Ken is what Goku is using now..."

Kaio tells us that Goku was using the Kaio-Ken at that current point. Not before, not the entire time, now. Freeza's beat down happened quite fast, so it's understandable as to why Tien wouldn't be up to speed with the battle. However, the sequence of events ends with Kaio telling the others that he was currently using the Kaio-Ken x10, but was still losing regardless.

What does all of this mean? Well, to me, it means the power Goku was keeping in reserve for Freeza was the Kaio-Ken x10. He has no other notable power-up by this point, so what else would he be referring to? The chapters seem to make it clear that Goku only started using the Kaio-Ken x10 when Freeza powered-up, which would explain Piccolo's dialogue of the difference being too great between their power reserves. The way it's all played in order does a lot more in showing Kaio-Ken x10 was never used before Freeza used 50% of his power than the opposite. I feel as though the story explains everything quite well here.

[freezamite]

No, I don't believe my interpretation of the manga is wrong at all. I don't see the "conflicting" information in Goku's fight with Freeza because the events that play out work well enough in the way that I see them. I re-iterated my statement again because as I see it, that's how the events took place.Toriyama wasn't going for anything really deep or thought-provoking when he created the story for the manga, and instead approached it in a way to where the simplest way of interpreting it is pretty much the best way.

1) No indication whatsoever, visually or otherwise, that Goku is using the Kaiou-ken prior to Freeza jumping to 50% = He's not using the Kaiou-ken
2) Statements from Goku, Piccolo, and Freeza show that Goku has a lot of power that he's not using yet in battle, but is willing to use = He's yet to use the Kaiou-ken 10x yet

Argument from repetition, that's the fallacy you're constantly incurring on.

1) There's not a single KKx10 aura drawn on that fight. You grab one random aura and say it was a KK aura, when it wasn't even drawn like a KK aura (Goku's eyes being in black). If you repeat one time after another what has already been discussed, I will bring the same answers until you can justify/explain them:

This KK activation based on the aura has the following problems:
1. It lacks coherence with the context of the story. Yes, Goku was resistant and such, but Raditz destroyed him while fighting softly and the difference was only of 3x, and he lost to fighters who had the same power than him. If Vegeta who was also praised by his endurance or Nappa who's endurance surprised even Goku weren't able to resist those kinds of differences, Goku also wasn't able to do that. (The context of this is Goku resisting Freezer's hits at 50% without using the KK, when those hits were strong enough to surpass him with the KKx10 activated).

2. It lacks coherence with the context of the action. So he powers up 10 times and receives more damage than when he wasn't powered up? Why did he power up then?

3. It even lacks coherence with how it was drawn. KK's aura always implied whitened eyes and this one doesn't have it. You could say that this is also true for my theory of the "invisible" KKx10, but at least it's coherent in that KKx10 is always drawn without a KK aura. On the other hand, that sudden KK activation based on the aura drawn lacks coherence with all the previous KK auras and also with how the KKx10 was represented itself, because in those pages Goku is clearly using the KK... without an aura (Chapter 312 page 14 and Chapter 313 page 1). So you also have the "invisible Kaioh Ken" problem.

4. It lacks coherence with every other similar situation resembling that (a sudden increase in strength as a surprise attack) and breaks the character of Freezer. How could Freezer react to that attack if Goku, in a much more favourable situation, couldn't react to a similar one?
That was Goku's situation compared to that one:
4.1. Goku was aware that Freezer was at his 50% AND Freezer said he would increase his power.
4.2. Goku was at a much bigger distance from Freezer, thus having more time to react to the surprise attack than Freezer had.
4.3. Goku had the ability to sense Freezer's power, unlike Freezer who couldn't have sensed Goku's increase in power with the KKx10.
4.4. Goku was looking at Freezer, Freezer wasn't even looking at Goku.
4.5. Freezer's increase was an order of magnitude lower than Goku's increase, so even when still a surprise attack, it was much less of a surprise in terms of how much the strength was increased.
4.6. Also according to you, the difference in power between 70% Freezer and SSJ Goku was more or less the same as the one between Goku KKx10 and Freezer at 50% of his power (84 - 150 vs 30 - 60).

This is what you have to answer instead of repeating the same one time after the other.

If there's nothing in the manga even hinting at things like him using a 15x Kaiou-ken or something along those lines, you can't say that he is to support your argument.
What you're doing would be no different than if I said that Superman, off-panel, flew into Namek and tried holding the core together, and that's why it took so long for it to explode. Both have absolutely nothing in the manga supporting them, but we'd be using them to try and support our views of what happened in the events of the story.

At least this is new, even when still a fallacy. So now saying that if Goku could reach a KKx20 he could also reach a KKx15 since it's the same technique but in a weaker/more easy to dominate stage it's the same as saying that Superman appeared and blah blah blah.
Now that we go by comparisons, you saying Goku couldn't use a KKx15 against Freezer it's exactly the same as saying that he couldn't turn into a SSJ2 against Kid Bu, because he went directly from SSJ to SSJ3.

We're accepting of outlooks on things, except when said outlooks blatantly contradict what is shown in the manga. Your belief that Goku's using the 10x Kaiou-ken the entire course of the fight not only disregards the fact that there's no physical signs that he is but also the fact that he himself clearly indicates he hasn't yet, and doesn't until after Freeza makes the jump in power.

No, Goku never talks about him using or not using the KKx10. And what contradicts the manga it's your sudden KK activation. I've pointed 6 points that you can't possibly explain, while I've given an in-universe explanation to all your assertions.
Besides that, I see that you insist a lot in the "missing" aura, but this missing aura problem is also something you can't escape. Not only because of your supposedly KK aura not being drawn as the rest of the KK auras, but also because:

3. It even lacks coherence with how it was drawn. KK's aura always implied whitened eyes and this one doesn't have it. You could say that this is also true for my theory of the "invisible" KKx10, but at least it's coherent in that KKx10 is always drawn without a KK aura. On the other hand, that sudden KK activation based on the aura drawn lacks coherence with all the previous KK auras and also with how the KKx10 was represented itself, because in those pages Goku is clearly using the KK... without aura (Chapter 312 page 14 and Chapter 313 page 1). So you also have the "invisible Kaioh Ken" problem.

I also fail to see what you mean in regards to the Raditz/Gohan thing. Gohan landed a single blow to him while the latter was unprotected, and received some damage from it. I don't see how that would have any bearing on why your x% gap theory works.

The 10% rules is in fact supported by this hit. The difference between Gohan and Raditz was of around 9,5% (not even 10%). That hit left Raditz weakened to a point where he couldn't escape the grab of a badly injured Goku who only had 1/3 of his strength to begin with.
Gohan delivered a blow that surpassed (in terms of damage dealt) the Genkidama Goku throws at Freezer.

All of this is before he even shows he has the power and speed to not only knock Freeza away, but also deflect all of his finger beams. With that, we know Goku is more powerful than everyone except Freeza. This is Goku without using any form of the Kaio-Ken.

No, this Goku had the KK already activated in my opinion. See what I answered to DP410.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I already did. You think Goku was using the Kaio-Ken x10 but not using all of his energy. That doesn't make much sense to me.

[freezamite]

I already did. You think Goku was using the Kaio-Ken x10 but not using the energy. That doesn't make much sense to me.

Nope, you haven't answered my 4 points, while I pointed a situation when it was clearly seen that the KK was used with a lowered energy (the one against Vegeta). If it was done one time, it can also be done twice, and that wouldn't have the problems I pointed that I personally can't even imagine how can be addressed.
As I already stated, KKx10 without using his maximum energy or KKx9 while using it, I don't really care because both address those 4 points that otherwise are impossible to explain.

This is, as I said, where we are. These are the problems that I think can't be explained from your point of view. I've already given an explanation to your assertions, and even if you don't like the idea of a KKx9 or a KKx10 without going all out on it, it is clearly in-universe and totally possible. Now it's your time to explain yourselves regarding those points:

This KK activation based on the aura has the following problems:
1. It lacks coherence with the context of the story. Yes, Goku was resistant and such, but Raditz destroyed him while fighting softly and the difference was only of 3x, and he lost to fighters who had the same power than him. If Vegeta who was also praised by his endurance or Nappa who's endurance surprised even Goku weren't able to resist those kinds of differences, Goku also wasn't able to do that. (The context of this is Goku resisting Freezer's hits at 50% without using the KK, when those hits were strong enough to surpass him with the KKx10 activated).

2. It lacks coherence with the context of the action. So he powers up 10 times and receives more damage than when he wasn't powered up? Why did he power up then?

3. It even lacks coherence with how it was drawn. KK's aura always implied whitened eyes and this one doesn't have it. You could say that this is also true for my theory of the "invisible" KKx10, but at least it's coherent in that KKx10 is always drawn without a KK aura. On the other hand, that sudden KK activation based on the aura drawn lacks coherence with all the previous KK auras and also with how the KKx10 was represented itself, because in those pages Goku is clearly using the KK... without an aura (Chapter 312 page 14 and Chapter 313 page 1). So you also have the "invisible Kaioh Ken" problem.

4. It lacks coherence with every other similar situation resembling that (a sudden increase in strength as a surprise attack) and breaks the character of Freezer. How could Freezer react to that attack if Goku, in a much more favourable situation, couldn't react to a similar one?
That was Goku's situation compared to that one:
4.1. Goku was aware that Freezer was at his 50% AND Freezer said he would increase his power.
4.2. Goku was at a much larger distance from Freezer, thus having more time to react to the surprise attack than Freezer had.
4.3. Goku had the ability to sense Freezer's power, unlike Freezer who couldn't have sensed Goku's increase in power with the KKx10.
4.4. Goku was looking at Freezer, Freezer wasn't even looking at Goku.
4.5. Freezer's increase was an order of magnitude lower than Goku's increase, so even when still a surprise attack, it was much less of a surprise in terms of how much the strength was increased.
4.6. Also according to you, the difference in power between 70% Freezer and SSJ Goku was more or less the same as the one between Goku KKx10 and Freezer at 50% of his power (84 - 150 vs 30 - 60).

[Godo]

If you have to debate in the form of using walls of texts and dissecting up everything into small pieces, I believe that you are simply overanalyzing a series meant to be easily interpreted by the minds of young boys.
I have a hard time seeing adults obsessing over things like this and can't help to wonder whether your priorities in life are wrong, or that you are bored as hell to even delve as deeply into such a minuscule matter such as this one, when we already got the result in the end of the fight, which don't matter no matter what was done before the SSJ transformation.

[freezamite]

If you have to debate in the form of using walls of texts and dissecting up everything into small pieces, I believe that you are simply overanalyzing a series meant to be easily interpreted by the minds of young boys.
I have a hard time seeing adults obsessing over things like this and can't help to wonder whether your priorities in life are wrong, or that you are bored as hell to even delve as deeply into such a minuscule matter such as this one, when we already got the result in the end of the fight, which don't matter no matter what was done before the SSJ transformation.

Wow wait a second. Are you telling me that talking about things like "the hottest DB female" is fine, but analizating the series' power scale is wrong?
Look, you're right in one thing though, I post this because I find it entertaining and I have nothing better to do at this moment. And I'm fine if this doesn't matter to you, we are in a Dragon Ball forum so I doubt anything discussed here can be considered transcendentally important if we are going by "priorities of someone's life".

Besides that, DB was one of the most popular manga in a country where mangas are read by everyone, so although I don't think DB is particularly hard to understand, it wasn't a "only for kids" manga either.

[TheGmGoken]

If you have to debate in the form of using walls of texts and dissecting up everything into small pieces, I believe that you are simply overanalyzing a series meant to be easily interpreted by the minds of young boys.
I have a hard time seeing adults obsessing over things like this and can't help to wonder whether your priorities in life are wrong, or that you are bored as hell to even delve as deeply into such a minuscule matter such as this one, when we already got the result in the end of the fight, which don't matter no matter what was done before the SSJ transformation.

Some are us are teens you know...(Though Teens on a Friday night should be out in most cases. In fact I'm about to leave in 30 minutes) and trust me. This isn't bad. Go watch My Little Pony Friendship(You'll see grown men wanting Lesbian Ponies), Godzilla, or any Marvel and Dc comic book debate. Trust me. You would rather have this.

I just go by Goku started using Kaioken when Freeza used 50%.

it wasn't a "only for kids" manga either.

Its not only for kids but the story is FOR kids 10 and up. So the story has to make sense to kids around that age. Though most adults read Shonen anyways

[freezamite]

Its not only for kids but the story is FOR kids 10 and up. So the story has to make sense to kids around that age. Though most adults read Shonen anyways

Nope. Titanic was also rated as a movie for kids 10 and up, and this doesn't mean it was made for the kids. Of course, I'm not comparing DB to Titanic, it's just an example.
Besides that, DB's Cell saga is convoluted enough for a 10 year old kid being lost at the very same moment Cell says he has killed trunks in the future when future Trunks appears in front of him.

[hleV]

DB was meant for but not limited to children.

[Kaboom]

This topic's bad enough already without getting the whole "for kids or not" debate involved. Can we maximize the thread's meager worth by keeping it on-topic, please?

[freezamite]

From another thread:

Riddle me this : Goku uses KKx2/x3/x4 on Vegeta, and every single use without exception causes Goku visible strain and is quite tiring. Goku leaves the gravity chamber upon arriving at Namek and proclaims he might be able to use up to KKx10 now. Might, as his maximum. Yet he can now suddenly use an "invisible kaioken" with absolutely no strain and remain completely calm and composed? And use it continuously without rest? Piccolo, Vegeta, Gohan, Krillin, and Freeza all saw Goku and the Z-warriors were all in awe of Goku's power. Piccolo + Vegeta = Both easily over one million, in awe of 300,000? Are you retconning KK being a short burst of power to suit your own needs? Because otherwise Piccolo would be like "Wait... Goku just dropped to WAY less than what he was putting out a moment ago... wait.... kaioken... GOKU YOU SCRUB."

I wouldn't say that he is affected by every single use. Goku uses KKx2 in short burst, but without any short-term drawback like being damaged or exhausted.
He only get's visibly damaged when he uses KK that he "can't" use, like KKx3 and KKx4.

When he arrives at Namek, he says that he can use up to KKx10, so I assume that at that point he has the KKx10 as dominated as the KKx2 was back on the earth.
In that context, between the zenkay power up and the time he stays on the healing machine he perfects this level of KK even more, to the point where he can use it even at no cost.

Remember that the fact that the KKx10 is invisible it's also valid for your point, because what you say is a KK aura it's in fact a flying aura (black eyes coupled with the fact that it disappears as soon as Goku stops flying at full speed) and the page where Kaito says "Goku is already using KKx10" has Goku drawn with NO AURA.

So in my opinion, in front of the conflicting points I have explained on my message above, the fact that Goku has perfected the use of the KKx10 seeing how the KKx20 deals less damage to him than the KKx4 did back on the earth (and that's 10 levels of KK, and double the level if you wan't to look at it from a relative perspective) is a better approach than him suddenly activating it after some inexplicable blows he receives and Freezer breaks the internal manga coherency in order to adapt to it.

Regards!

[Kaboom]

May I present something new from the full-color manga thread.

Spoiler:

Shueisha seems to have gone ahead and solidified that Goku is using the Kaio-Ken against Freeza for the first time in that instance. Just a few panels after this is when Kaio points out that Goku's using the Kaio-Ken x10 already. Seems like this is what he's referring to, and Goku's still helpless against Freeza.

There continues to be no evidence of an "invisible Kaio-Ken" happening anywhere.

[dbgtFO]

I'm still a bit disappointed, they didn't establish him using Kaioken for the first time in the previous chapter, because when he charges Freeza in one of the panels his eyes aren't blackened in, usually an implication of Kaioken being used. Also that was the panel accompanying Daizenshuu 2's description of Kaioken x10*.
This panel:

Spoiler:

Borrowed from Tyro, hopefully you're alright with that.
* Of course if that makes sense with what we're told about Goku having powers in reserve(KK x10) is another issue.