Saiyan's Strength

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Saiyan's Strength

Post by Kakashi » Sun Dec 01, 2013 7:55 pm

We know Bardock was 10,000 and close to surpass KingVegeta. What is the power of a saiyan? Low class, elite warrior is relevant? Is there mid class?

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Re: Saiyan's Strength

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Sun Dec 01, 2013 7:59 pm

The King Vegeta bit was a dub line.

I'm guessing any Battle Power less than 3,000 is considered low-class. Not sure if there's a mid.
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Re: Saiyan's Strength

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:07 pm

You sure? The line is in the Latin one as well.

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Re: Saiyan's Strength

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:19 pm

Pretty sure:
Herms wrote:[10. Bardock heals]
Japanese

Doctor A: Burdock is as surprising as ever. It’s only taken him several days to fully recover.
Doctor B: Yeah. He may be a lower class warrior, but every time he goes off to clear some land, he always manages to nearly get killed before returning.
A: By now, his battle power should be pretty close to 10,000.
B: He’s quite a guy.
*Toma enters*
Toma: How is he?
B: Physically there’s nothing wrong. He’s in perfect shape. However, the computer is picking up a fluctuation in his brain waves.
Toma: I see.
Pumpkin: Oh well, this time we’ll have to leave Burdock behind.
Toma: Yeah.
A: Which planet are you off to this time?
Toma: Planet Meat.

English

Melakka: If he keeps this up, he going to be become stronger than King Vegeta!
Planthor: No kidding! Bardock, he comes back from every mission half dead! My gosh!
Melakka: He’s crazy! What kind of low-level soldier would go to a planet like Kanassa with only a handful of men?
Planthor: I think he needs to be retested, his case is unusual!
Melakka: I agree, Planthor!
Torah: How is he, Melakka?
Melakka: Let’s see here…yes, physically, sure…he’s ready! Mentally, I’m not so sure! There’s a slight change in his brainwave patterns!
Torah: Brainwaves!
Shugesh: That doesn’t sound too good, Torah! We’d better handle this one on our own!
Torah: Right! We should be okay on Meet! *to Bardock* Well, goodbye, old friend!
Bardock versus King Vegeta

Interestingly, in Japanese to convey Bardock strength they say that his battle power is almost 10,000, while in English they instead say he’ll soon be stronger than King Vegeta. “10,000” is used as the battle power of a couple different anime-only characters. Besides Bardock, it’s also the BP of baby Broli, Gohan in DBZ movie 3, and the three Namekian warriors who attack Freeza as he approaches the Great Elder’s house. The reason for this constant use is probably because 10,000 is a big round number, especially in Japanese. There, 10,000 (man in Japanese) is used as the unit for higher numbers, rather than 1,000 like in English. So a million in Japanese is 100 man (100 x 10,000), and this continues until you reach 100 million (oku), 10,000 times 10,000, and from there that becomes the new unit until you reach a trillion short-scale (10,000 x 10,000 x 10,000). Rinse and repeat ad infinitum.

Meanwhile, the dub comparing Bardock to King Vegeta seems like an expression of the theme of “low class” guys like Bardock surpassing the elites, something that’s emphasized a lot stronger in the dub. The Japanese version does the same basic thing here for instance, since at 10,000 Bardock would be a lot stronger than Nappa by anyone’s reckoning, and Nappa is supposed to be Saiyan nobility and an elite. However, working that out requires knowledge of the main series, while the dub just flat-out says Bardock is almost as strong as the guy who sits at the pinnacle of Saiyan society. Incidentally, there’s not much information on exactly how strong King Vegeta was. In the Freeza arc Prince Vegeta says he had surpassed his father while he was still a kid, but we don’t know exactly when that is. At any rate, Vegeta had a battle power of 18,000 when he went to Earth, so King Vegeta should be lower than that. So going by that I guess “close to 10,000” and “at this rate he’ll soon surpass King Vegeta” are pretty equivalent statements. It should also be noted that in the Japanese version of the special King Vegeta is never mentioned at all, in this or any other scene.
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Re: Saiyan's Strength

Post by Pantalones » Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:21 pm

Well, Raditz was a low-class Saiyan and was somewhere in the 1200-1500 range (I think 1500 is supposed to be his "official" level but I'm pretty sure both numbers have been given to him at some point.) Vegeta refers to him as a weakling, but... he's Vegeta. Nappa on the other hand actually wanted to bring him back and didn't really talk down about him, so I'd assume 1500 or so is at least seen as a respectable level for a low-class Saiyan.
There's also the filler episode where some (presumably low-class) Saiyans are able to wipe the floor with the humans before their training with Kami, which would put most/all adult low-class Saiyans above the 200-300 range at least. I can't remember if anything specific was said about their power levels there, but I know they were supposed to be weaker than either Nappa or Vegeta at least.

Vegeta was the most-elite of the elite, so it's probably safe to say that his 18,000 is way, way ahead of any other Saiyan alive since he's been around. King Vegeta is presumably somewhere in the low 10,000-ish range, considering that Bardock at 10,000 was apparently close to surpassing him and Vegeta also passed him when he was still a kid (years before he reached his adult 18,000 level.) Even if that part about Bardock's 10,000 being close to the king was just a dub line, Vegeta's 18,000 is clearly defined as being a good bit higher than whatever level King Vegeta was at (since he surpassed his father as a kid, even before getting to 18,000), so there's not a lot of room for the king to be higher than 10,000... though I guess he could be below that point.

Nappa's an elite and he's several thousand below the "highest of the elite" 10,000 mark (4000 by the Daizenshuu numbers)... and I'd assume Nappa's not considered a weakling among elites, since he was seen hanging around with Prince Vegeta even before Freeza blew the planet up. So I guess it's probably safe to say that elite Saiyans with power levels of 10,000 or higher outside of the royal family were rare... and freak exceptions like Bardock (a low-class Saiyan) getting that high up there were even rarer.

So... I'd probably guess that an average low-class Saiyan is around 1000ish (with Raditz being slightly above average), and most elite Saiyans were probably around two or three times that. Of course there'd be some exceptions, though (stronger elites in the 4000-9000ish range, plus the royal family being 10,000+... and probably more than a handful of low-class Saiyans who managed to pass Raditz's level and brush up against the lower range of the elites, plus guys like Bardock getting freakishly strong.)

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Re: Saiyan's Strength

Post by Kakashi » Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:34 pm

Pantalones wrote:Well, Raditz was a low-class Saiyan and was somewhere in the 1200-1500 range (I think 1500 is supposed to be his "official" level but I'm pretty sure both numbers have been given to him at some point.) Vegeta refers to him as a weakling, but... he's Vegeta. Nappa on the other hand actually wanted to bring him back and didn't really talk down about him, so I'd assume 1500 or so is at least seen as a respectable level for a low-class Saiyan.
There's also the filler episode where some (presumably low-class) Saiyans are able to wipe the floor with the humans before their training with Kami, which would put most/all adult low-class Saiyans above the 200-300 range at least. I can't remember if anything specific was said about their power levels there, but I know they were supposed to be weaker than either Nappa or Vegeta at least.

Vegeta was the most-elite of the elite, so it's probably safe to say that his 18,000 is way, way ahead of any other Saiyan alive since he's been around. King Vegeta is presumably somewhere in the low 10,000-ish range, considering that Bardock at 10,000 was apparently close to surpassing him and Vegeta also passed him when he was still a kid (years before he reached his adult 18,000 level.) Even if that part about Bardock's 10,000 being close to the king was just a dub line, Vegeta's 18,000 is clearly defined as being a good bit higher than whatever level King Vegeta was at (since he surpassed his father as a kid, even before getting to 18,000), so there's not a lot of room for the king to be higher than 10,000... though I guess he could be below that point.

Nappa's an elite and he's several thousand below the "highest of the elite" 10,000 mark (4000 by the Daizenshuu numbers)... and I'd assume Nappa's not considered a weakling among elites, since he was seen hanging around with Prince Vegeta even before Freeza blew the planet up. So I guess it's probably safe to say that elite Saiyans with power levels of 10,000 or higher outside of the royal family were rare... and freak exceptions like Bardock (a low-class Saiyan) getting that high up there were even rarer.

So... I'd probably guess that an average low-class Saiyan is around 1000ish (with Raditz being slightly above average), and most elite Saiyans were probably around two or three times that. Of course there'd be some exceptions, though (stronger elites in the 4000-9000ish range, plus the royal family being 10,000+... and probably more than a handful of low-class Saiyans who managed to pass Raditz's level and brush up against the lower range of the elites, plus guys like Bardock getting freakishly strong.)
Nappa at full power is close to 8,000 and any low class Saiyan should be > Raditz who was 1,250 IMO. Low class Saiyans are at 1,500 - 3,000 IMO. Elite ones are at at 4,000 - 7,000 while the more elite are above that and perhaps above 10,000

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Re: Saiyan's Strength

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:16 pm

I think that the low-class warriors would be somewhere around 600-1.600 (for example, Raditz was at 1.500), elite warriors would be 2.000-9.000 (for example, Nappa was at almost 8.000 IMO), with various exceptions from both classes being above 7.000 (like Bardock) or below 600 (like Tarble IMO). I would put King Vegeta somewhere around 12.000-14.000.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Saiyan's Strength

Post by Kakashi » Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:55 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I think that the low-class warriors would be somewhere around 600-1.600 (for example, Raditz was at 1.500), elite warriors would be 2.000-9.000 (for example, Nappa was at almost 8.000 IMO), with various exceptions from both classes being above 7.000 (like Bardock) or below 600 (like Tarble IMO). I would put King Vegeta somewhere around 12.000-14.000.
600? Raditz is the lowest IMO. Raditz was also just over 1,200. Elite starts from over 3,000 IMO

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Re: Saiyan's Strength

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:49 pm

I believe that it was common for saiyans to be below 1,000. The average high class saiyan I feel would have been around 3,000.
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
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Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Saiyan's Strength

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:53 pm

Kakashi wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I think that the low-class warriors would be somewhere around 600-1.600 (for example, Raditz was at 1.500), elite warriors would be 2.000-9.000 (for example, Nappa was at almost 8.000 IMO), with various exceptions from both classes being above 7.000 (like Bardock) or below 600 (like Tarble IMO). I would put King Vegeta somewhere around 12.000-14.000.
600? Raditz is the lowest IMO. Raditz was also just over 1,200. Elite starts from over 3,000 IMO
Actually, forget what I said. I'll put the low-class warriors somewhere around 300-1600. Goku for example, was around 400 as an adult before Kaio's training.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Saiyan's Strength

Post by Kaboom » Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:02 pm

Don't forget, most races in the mortal universe probably didn't break the 1000 mark in terms of their average power levels. The Saiyans were considered a formidable warrior race, but if we assume Raditz is average, then he's considered so at "only" around 1500. Goku was a Saiyan too, but he lived a relatively cozy life in easy conditions on Earth compared to most other Saiyans, and he hadn't even hit a normal power level of 500 by adulthood. Heck, the only reason he and the humans ever broke the 1000 mark is because they had extra help from aliens and/or gods.

Compare that to Nappa at a relatively impressive 4000 or so, and it's easy to see why he'd be considered an "elite." Then once you get up into the 10,000 and above mark with people like Vegeta, Kwi, Zarbon, and Dodoria, you're talking about people who are the "best of the best." People like Nail or the Ginyu Force or Abo and Cado who are in the several tens of thousands up to 100k are pretty much mutant freaks of nature.

Then finally, you've got behemoths like Freeza, who are considered the uncontested "strongest in the universe" at just a few hundred thousand. The idea of power levels that breeched into the millions, much less the tens or hundreds of millions, would be considered incomprehensible to most people (see Vegeta's reaction to 2nd-form Freeza's "over 1 million" claim), or the stuff of legends (namely, well, Goku as a Super Saiyan).
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Re: Saiyan's Strength

Post by Kakashi » Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:48 pm

Low class Saiyans are at least around Raditz IMO. I have bardock's team around 2,000 with toma being even 3,000

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Re: Saiyan's Strength

Post by Saiga » Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:12 pm

From the way Raditz talks about Goku, I'd say he's quite weak for a Saiyan. And Goku didn't grow up on Planet Vegeta with it's 10x gravity, so I should think that the average adult Saiyan is around the 1,000 mark. I'd say Raditz is fairly average himself at 1,500.
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Re: Saiyan's Strength

Post by Kakashi » Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:25 pm

Saiga wrote:From the way Raditz talks about Goku, I'd say he's quite weak for a Saiyan. And Goku didn't grow up on Planet Vegeta with it's 10x gravity, so I should think that the average adult Saiyan is around the 1,000 mark. I'd say Raditz is fairly average himself at 1,500.
Raditz is just over 1,200 and he should be the lowest level IMO

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Re: Saiyan's Strength

Post by Strife1 » Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:52 am

Kakashi wrote:
Saiga wrote:From the way Raditz talks about Goku, I'd say he's quite weak for a Saiyan. And Goku didn't grow up on Planet Vegeta with it's 10x gravity, so I should think that the average adult Saiyan is around the 1,000 mark. I'd say Raditz is fairly average himself at 1,500.
Raditz is just over 1,200 and he should be the lowest level IMO
Why? Because the internet has emphasized the weakness of Raditz? Raditz had a superiority complex. I'm sure that didn't come from being the weakest on his planet. We never see battle powers of any of those other thousands of Saiyans either.

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Re: Saiyan's Strength

Post by Kingsley » Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:29 am

I think I remember 12k being stated as King Vegeta's powerlevel in the 7th Daizenshuu

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Re: Saiyan's Strength

Post by Kaboom » Tue Dec 03, 2013 11:11 am

Kingsley wrote:I think I remember 12k being stated as King Vegeta's powerlevel in the 7th Daizenshuu
If it were, I think everyone would know and be constantly citing it.
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Re: Saiyan's Strength

Post by SuperSaiyanOzaru » Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:19 pm

Don't forget that the Saiyans had only been in space for maybe a generation. That means that they went from a "primitive" tribal state into the state that we see them cooperating with Freeza within about 20 years or so. Before they went into space, the Saiyans were probably pretty strong by Earthling standards, but their training regime was probably pretty rudimentary. No gravity chambers, no cultivars to spar with, no rejuvenation tanks to recover in. Just a lot of grappling with other Saiyans in petty tribal squabbles, and if you got mortally wounded you just died. They were still strong enough to overthrow the Tsufuru-jin, though, and maybe that's what got the attention of Freeza. I like to think that Freeza's men were already scouting out Planet Vegeta to take it over, but before they could make their move the Saiyans come out of nowhere and do it for them within a single night. Then Freeza's like "oh wow those guys might be kinda useful; I can just throw Saiyans at a planet instead of my own men". So then the Saiyans start being sent to planets and start throwing down with other aliens, some of which might be as strong as they are, and overall start being "challenged" more. At the same time, they're introduced to rejuvenation tanks. So now more Saiyans are getting into higher level fights, getting seriously injured, and yet are able to make full recoveries and benefit from larger zenkais. This goes on for about 20 or so years and BOOM, the majority of Saiyans are now in the low 1000s, with a few elites nearing 5000 or more. And then Prince Vegeta shows up and Holy Crap he's over 9000. It soon becomes obvious that the Saiyans are just going to keep getting stronger, and then there's rumors of a Super Saiyan, and Freeza decides to destroy them.

So the answer the OP's question, I'd say an "average" or "low-level" Saiyan would've been about 1000 to 2000 when Freeza decides to destroy them all. But if Freeza hadn't destroyed them, the Saiyans as a whole would've kept getting stronger, and the average would've gone up. Maybe in an alternate universe there's a Saiyan empire where "low-level" means you haven't become a Super Saiyan and are "only" in the low millions, and elites are Super Saiyans and the prince himself is a Super Saiyan 2 or 3.

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Re: Saiyan's Strength

Post by FoolsGil » Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:49 am

Well if Mr. "I'm a Saiyan General" is at 4,000...

Nappa = 4000
Standard Elite = 3200 to less than 4000
Second Class = 2300 to 3200
Third Class = Less than 2300


And if he is at 6000...

Nappa = 6000
Standard Elite = 4500 to less than 6000
Second Class = 3000 to 4500
Third Class = Less than 3000

Come to think of it, all the talk of 3rd class, Elite and all this is meaningless, because any Saiyan crazy enough can just use hax and Zenkai to elite if they are lucky enough, just like Bardock.

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