Raditz/Nappa Battle Power

[FoolsGil]

No one is ever going to realize or accept Toryama just dropped the ball when it came to Nappa, huh? 1200, 1500, for Raditz it doesn't matter at least his battle was consistent with the series logic. Nappa, not so much.

[Strife1]

How about this. Raditz ≥ Saibamen. Vegeta > KK2 Goku. Goku > Nappa. Nappa > Piccolo
Raditz fighting against a Saibamen would result in him winning either way, suicide exempt. Vegeta was stronger than Kaiōken x 2 Goku. Goku at his base was strong and skilled enough to have Nappa not land a single hit on him. Nappa was more powerful than Piccolo.
...What else is there? Battle Powers are pointless. I think this passed influx of debates and controversies lately should've led most of us to that conclusion.

[freezamite]

Gohan's headbutt only did moderate damage to him at most, and that was without him even trying to guard or block it. It was clear that he was caught totally by surprise by the attack, which accounts for the damage he did take.

What? I don't know which manga did you read, but on the manga I read:
1. Raditz was aware of Gohan's strength and location since the beginning, so in no way this was a surprise attack:
(bootleg scanlation link removed by administrator)

2. It's not that Raditz didn't try to block or guard it, it's that he wasn't able to do so:
(bootleg scanlation link removed by administrator)
This is not the face of someone that's not trying to defend as if he was playing, that's the face of someone when he thinks "oh shit I'm screwed".
(bootleg scanlation link removed by administrator)

If Raditz had had a 15,3% power advantage over Gohan, even when a kid having that much strength would still be impressive, he could have reacted perfectly to that attack.

3. Moderate damage? Enough damage for him being unable to defend against Goku's hold:
(bootleg scanlation link removed by administrator)

Raditz was way below 1500, in fact, if he was power-wise comparable to a Saibaman like it's said on the manga, his power had to be 1200. 1500 is not comparable to 1200 by any stretch.

Saying that Raditz would need to be lower than Piccolo's Makankosappo in turn means that Perfect Cell would need to have had a lower battle power than Vegeta when the latter fired off the Final Flash, which we know isn't true at all.

What? No, this makes no sense. Firstly, Cell would need to have had a lower battle power than Vegeta's FINAL FLASH, not than Vegeta himself.
Secondly, Cell wasn't using all his strength and he PURPOSELY took the hit in order to make fun of Vegeta with the regeneration trick, so even if he was above Vegeta's attack at that point, he could have lowered his energy enough for the beam to blow his arm.

(that he did have the capacity to raise it, but just couldn't lower it below 4,000, hence that number)

So now Nappa had the ability to control his ki, and Vegeta didn't even knew? Not only Vegeta, but even Nappa was conscious that he had this ability?
Sorry, but this is not true.

[VegettoEX]

Your image links do not work and are being stripped from (what I presume is) a bootleg scanlation site.

This is not OK.

[freezamite]

Your image links do not work and are being stripped from (what I presume is) a bootleg scanlation site.

This is not OK.

Ok, from now on I will point the chapter and the page where those images are taken off instead of a direct link to them. Sorry!

[Godo]

Raditz was in denial about the strength of Goku, Gohan and Piccolo pretty much the whole fight.
He didn't even trust his scouter readings about Gohan's strength.
Of course it was a surprise attack when Gohan suddenly bursted out of the ship and headbutted Gohan.

[Darkprince410]

Gohan's headbutt only did moderate damage to him at most, and that was without him even trying to guard or block it. It was clear that he was caught totally by surprise by the attack, which accounts for the damage he did take.

What? I don't know which manga did you read, but on the manga I read:
1. Raditz was aware of Gohan's strength and location since the beginning, so in no way this was a surprise attack:
(bootleg scanlation link removed by administrator)

2. It's not that Raditz didn't try to block or guard it, it's that he wasn't able to do so:
(bootleg scanlation link removed by administrator)
This is not the face of someone that's not trying to defend as if he was playing, that's the face of someone when he thinks "oh shit I'm screwed".
(bootleg scanlation link removed by administrator)

If Raditz had had a 15,3% power advantage over Gohan, even when a kid having that much strength would still be impressive, he could have reacted perfectly to that attack.

3. Moderate damage? Enough damage for him being unable to defend against Goku's hold:
(bootleg scanlation link removed by administrator)

Raditz was way below 1500, in fact, if he was power-wise comparable to a Saibaman like it's said on the manga, his power had to be 1200. 1500 is not comparable to 1200 by any stretch.

Saying that Raditz would need to be lower than Piccolo's Makankosappo in turn means that Perfect Cell would need to have had a lower battle power than Vegeta when the latter fired off the Final Flash, which we know isn't true at all.

What? No, this makes no sense. Firstly, Cell would need to have had a lower battle power than Vegeta's FINAL FLASH, not than Vegeta himself.
Secondly, Cell wasn't using all his strength and he PURPOSELY took the hit in order to make fun of Vegeta with the regeneration trick, so even if he was above Vegeta's attack at that point, he could have lowered his energy enough for the beam to blow his arm.

(that he did have the capacity to raise it, but just couldn't lower it below 4,000, hence that number)

So now Nappa had the ability to control his ki, and Vegeta didn't even knew? Not only Vegeta, but even Nappa was conscious that he had this ability?
Sorry, but this is not true.

1) He was aware of Gohan's battle power and location, but if you remember, he was constantly dismissing the reading as a scouter bug. Likewise, even though he knew the location and the battle power, as quickly as Gohan attacked him, he didn't have time to react.

2) I know he didn't try to guard or block it, because he didn't anticipate the attack and it came on too suddenly for him to block.

3) He didn't casually react like he could tank the hit because he wasn't anticipating one at all, and that's why he took the attack head on. He reacted in shock to the 1,307, and immediately Gohan blitzed him with the attack. If he were able to dodge, even just barely, Piccolo's Makankosappo with a battle power of 1,330 behind it, he would have at least been able to attempt to evade Gohan's headbutt if he had anticipated it.

4) Even then, it only did moderate damage. In comparison to other physical blows we've seen people take like that, Raditz's ability to move around pretty easily afterward, and was able to keep on his feet despite taking the hit. Yes, it damaged him to the point that he couldn't break free of Goku's hold, but it was still what I'd consider moderate damage in the grand scheme of the manga.

Cell deliberately took the Final Flash because he thought it would do no damage to him given Vegeta's battle power. He was confident in his ability to tank the blast when he saw Vegeta powering it up normally, suggesting full well that he had the battle power superiority at the time, and was shocked when he saw the blast fired, seeing that Vegeta had narrowed the beam to the point of it actually being dangerous.

Likewise, he didn't take it to show off his regeneration abilities and make fun of Vegeta for it. He made fun of Vegeta by playing like he was defeated from the attack, that even though he didn't expect to take damage from it at all, he was still going to win no matter what Vegeta threw at him.

When it came to Nappa and Vegeta, it was the fact that the Z Senshi could hide their power that really threw them for a loop, because both clearly were shown powering up during the course of their fights with the Z Senshi (Goku even comments on a power increase from Vegeta when he's doing so). They were surprised by their ability to freely control their strength and suppress it to low levels if they needed to.

It should also be noted that when Nappa started doing well against Goku, he had some form of battle aura around him. If nothing had changed with him during his fight with Goku, why would that aura have shown up?

Lastly, in regards to Raditz again, when Nappa and Vegeta are talking about what happened to him, Vegeta makes the comment

Chapter: 204 (DBZ 10), P10.1
Context: Vegeta talking about Raditz losing to Goku and co.
Vegeta: “"Geez, what a pitiful guy... To be killed by guys with battle powers slightly over 1,000 at most...”

Given what is said and how he's berating Raditz, Vegeta's comment suggests that, by numbers alone, Raditz shouldn't have lost to them. It's not like they were unaware of how strong he was (as indicated by Nappa's comment about the Saibamen), so him calling Raditz pitiful suggests that, even with his strength, he should have still been able to beat Goku and the others going by the numbers alone.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

1.500 for Raditz sounds fine to me. 4.000 for Nappa's full power though... nah. Even if someone is more durable than usually, a fight just can't take forever when there is a x2 gap between them.

[Kakashi]

1.500 for Raditz sounds fine to me. 4.000 for Nappa's full power though... nah. Even if someone is more durable than usually, a fight just can't take forever when there is a x2 gap between them.

Except Raditz is a little bit stronger than a Saibaman. 1,250 is backed up by the Manga

[DBZGTKOSDH]

1.500 for Raditz sounds fine to me. 4.000 for Nappa's full power though... nah. Even if someone is more durable than usually, a fight just can't take forever when there is a x2 gap between them.

Except Raditz is a little bit stronger than a Saibaman. 1,250 is backed up by the Manga

IMO, 1.500 qualifies as little stronger.

[Kaboom]

There's no strict limitation for what counts as "a little bit." 1500 doesn't clash with anything we're shown.

[freezamite]

Raditz was in denial about the strength of Goku, Gohan and Piccolo pretty much the whole fight.
He didn't even trust his scouter readings about Gohan's strength.
Of course it was a surprise attack when Gohan suddenly bursted out of the ship and headbutted Gohan.

Being in denial doesn't mean to not be aware of it. Dodoria also was in denial, and by any means his fight against Vegeta can be considered a surprise attack. Regarding him trusting the scoutter readings, that's only right until before the fight starts. Once Piccolo and Goku show themselves, Raditz knows that the scoutter is working perfectly and that it is Gohan the one with that much strength.

Gohan suddenly bursted out of the ship, true, but then he stays still enough time for Raditz not only to realize Gohan's presence, but also to read the strength he had.
Since Raditz:
1. Knows where is Gohan and where the attacks comes from.
2. Knows how much strength Gohan had at that point

It couldn't be considered a surprise attack. Look, Raditz at 1500 would put Gohan and Piccolo's deadly beam at the same position Goku was in front of Vegeta when he used KKx2 (in fact, there would be more difference in favour of Raditz).

1) He was aware of Gohan's battle power and location, but if you remember, he was constantly dismissing the reading as a scouter bug. Likewise, even though he knew the location and the battle power, as quickly as Gohan attacked him, he didn't have time to react.

That would be valid for every single attack seen on the manga!! Look at how the Goku vs Freezer fight started, Goku also attacks "suddenly". It's of course an evidence that a character won't warn the other one about his upcoming attack. I mean, I can't imagine anyone saying "hey, I'm attacking you in 3, 2, 1..."
Gohan attacked and Raditz couldn't react to it, which means that he was inferior.

What makes an attack a "surprise attack" is:
1. The attack comes from someone/somewhere not expected to be on the fight.
2. The attack comes at a strength that's not expected by the enemy (sudden energy increase like KKx2-3 against Vegeta or KKx20 against Freezer, Freezer's increase from 50% to 70%, Zarbon's transformation).
3. Special circumstances (Vegeta punching Zarbon's back after throwing sand at his eyes to blind him).

Gohan's attack against Raditz it's like any other frontal attack, the only "surprise factor" as you say is that the attack is performed without a warning which can be applied to nearly any attack seen on the series.

2) I know he didn't try to guard or block it, because he didn't anticipate the attack and it came on too suddenly for him to block.

Nearly every single attack in DB comes suddenly except for two or three cases where one fighter warns the other one. If it came too suddenly for him to block, it's because it came too fast, or in other words, because Raditz hadn't enough power to react to it.

If he were able to dodge, even just barely, Piccolo's Makankosappo with a battle power of 1,330 behind it, he would have at least been able to attempt to evade Gohan's headbutt if he had anticipated it.

The difference between Gohan's attack and Piccolo's attack is that Piccolo's attack is one of the few ones an enemy is conscious it's comming before it's launched. It's not that Gohan's attack is a surprise attack, it's that Piccolo's attack was something Raditz was aware of much before it was launched, so he could of course be more prepared to evade it than a normal, frontal attack.

4) Even then, it only did moderate damage. In comparison to other physical blows we've seen people take like that, Raditz's ability to move around pretty easily afterward, and was able to keep on his feet despite taking the hit. Yes, it damaged him to the point that he couldn't break free of Goku's hold, but it was still what I'd consider moderate damage in the grand scheme of the manga.

Well, considering that Goku had only 1/3 of Raditz's strength, that at that point he was so injured that at the very best he had a fraction of his normal strenght, and that Raditz's wasn't able to break this hold because of how weakened he was left, it seems to me that his energy had to descend really sharply. For him to be at 1500, that was quite a hit, don't you think?

Cell deliberately took the Final Flash because he thought it would do no damage to him given Vegeta's battle power. He was confident in his ability to tank the blast when he saw Vegeta powering it up normally, suggesting full well that he had the battle power superiority at the time, and was shocked when he saw the blast fired, seeing that Vegeta had narrowed the beam to the point of it actually being dangerous.

Yes, and then he was affraid of Vegeta and he addmited defeat. But all that turned to be an act that he put in order to impress Vegeta. In other words, the whole reaction to the final falsh was Cell mocking Vegeta.

Likewise, he didn't take it to show off his regeneration abilities and make fun of Vegeta for it. He made fun of Vegeta by playing like he was defeated from the attack, that even though he didn't expect to take damage from it at all, he was still going to win no matter what Vegeta threw at him.

He mocked Vegeta clearly, from the start to the end.

Given what is said and how he's berating Raditz, Vegeta's comment suggests that, by numbers alone, Raditz shouldn't have lost to them. It's not like they were unaware of how strong he was (as indicated by Nappa's comment about the Saibamen), so him calling Raditz pitiful suggests that, even with his strength, he should have still been able to beat Goku and the others going by the numbers alone.

Or simply that he wasn't that much strong from his point of view, or in other words, he was killed by weakling so he was really pathetic. Was Goku with KKx2 comparable to Vegeta? Or Dodoria? Because that's the difference you imply there was between a Gohan or Piccolo's attack and Raditz.
Now, I think this all comes because some of you reffuse to admit that the Daizenshuu could be wrong, well then, I will use the own Daizenshuu to demonstrate how inconsistant it was.
Let's take Yamcha's power according to the Daizenshuu. We can agree in that Yamcha totally owned the saibaman, and also in that the saibaman was fighting at his maximum power since the begining (Vegeta threatened him killing the saibaman that lost against Ten-Shin). The match ended with a draw thanks to the Kamikaze-surprise attack the saibaman did, but after fighting against them, Yamcha was pretty confident on being able to kill them all.

Well then, Yamcha's power was (at that point) of only 1480 according to the Daizenshuu, weaker than Raditz. So how can be justified that 1500 was comparable to 1200, when a 1480 Yamcha dominated the fight completely to the point where he didn't receive even a single hit?
That's not what I would say an "even fight" or "a comparable strength".

There's no strict limitation for what counts as "a little bit." 1500 doesn't clash with anything we're shown.

Yes there is a limitation when equally big differences result in nearly one hit kills. Goku hadn't even the slightest chance against Vegeta with his KKx2 (16.000 to 18.000, a much tinnier difference than 1.200 to 1.500), Dodoria didn't had the slightest chance against Vegeta (+20.000 to 24.000, also smaller than 1200 to 1500), etc.
There was never a strict limit specified in the sence that it was never said anything like "a +8,5325% difference it's the point where a fight becomes one sided", but there was a point where the strenght difference was enough to decide the fight and 1200 to 1500 was clearly past that point.

[Rocketman]

but there was a point where the strenght difference was enough to decide the fight and 1200 to 1500 was clearly past that point.

Says who?

[freezamite]

but there was a point where the strenght difference was enough to decide the fight and 1200 to 1500 was clearly past that point.

Says who?

Vegeta owning Dodoria, Goku trying a desperate KKx3 because KKx2 wasn't nearly enough to put a fight... in other words, the manga.

[Kakashi]

1.500 for Raditz sounds fine to me. 4.000 for Nappa's full power though... nah. Even if someone is more durable than usually, a fight just can't take forever when there is a x2 gap between them.

Except Raditz is a little bit stronger than a Saibaman. 1,250 is backed up by the Manga

IMO, 1.500 qualifies as little stronger.

1.25x is a big gap and not rivaling

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Yamcha's battle power was at 1.480 according to D7, and the Saibaimen have BP 1.200. Their fight was almost even, but with Yamcha having a small advantage. Yamcha "defeated" the Saibaiman with the Kamehameha though, which should be over 2.960, and Raditz hasn't shown any technique that alters his BP. So, assuming that Raditz's BP is a stable 1.500 (which is very slightly bigger than Yamcha's), he should have a harder time against a Saibaiman.

As for Gohan's 1.307 against Raditz's 1.500, I don't see any issue. Gohan's attack didn't break any bone of Raditz, Raditz didn't even fall on the ground. It just hurt him for a few seconds, and that's it.

[Rocketman]

but there was a point where the strenght difference was enough to decide the fight and 1200 to 1500 was clearly past that point.

Says who?

Vegeta owning Dodoria, Goku trying a desperate KKx3 because KKx2 wasn't nearly enough to put a fight... in other words, the manga.

Those are differences of several thousands, not a mere 300.

[freezamite]

Gohan's attack didn't break any bone of Raditz, Raditz didn't even fall on the ground. It just hurt him for a few seconds, and that's it.

Raditz was weakened enough for an injured Goku to be able to hold him. Goku had multiple broken bones, and only a portion of his original strenght. And 1307 to 1200 would still be only a 1.089 (or in other words, not even a 9% in power difference).

Their fight was almost even, but with Yamcha having a small advantage. Yamcha "defeated" the Saibaiman with the Kamehameha though, which should be over 2.960, and Raditz hasn't shown any technique that alters his BP.

The fight was even until Yamcha decided to put an end to it. At the first moment Yamcha decides to go for the kill, he owns the Saybaman like he was nothing to him. Not only with the Kamehame, but he also speed-blizes the saibamen in an instant.

Those are differences of several thousands, not a mere 300.

16000 to 18000 it's a 1.125 difference (a bit over that 10% I estimate as being the barrier), 20000 to 24000 it's a 1.2 difference. 1200 to 1500 it's a 1.25 difference, much bigger than those.

[Rocketman]

16000 to 18000 it's a 1.125 difference (a bit over that 10% I estimate as being the barrier), 20000 to 24000 it's a 1.2 difference. 1200 to 1500 it's a 1.25 difference, much bigger than those.

None of which matters to anybody but you, because it is entirely borne on nothing.

[freezamite]

16000 to 18000 it's a 1.125 difference (a bit over that 10% I estimate as being the barrier), 20000 to 24000 it's a 1.2 difference. 1200 to 1500 it's a 1.25 difference, much bigger than those.

None of which matters to anybody but you, because it is entirely borne on nothing.

Well, I don't think you can speak for everyone and I'm sure a lot of people are interested on mathematics (as this last message was purely a mathematical lesson more than a manga explanation). If what you mean is that nobody besides me cares about those differences, not only this is false seeing how other people has pointed 1.25 to be too big, but the fact of a lot of people caring or not caring won't change what was written on the manga.
You don't care about power differences you say, well then, what are you doing here trying to defend that 1.25 it's not a big difference? Or did you mean that you don't care about anything besides your own opinon, in which case I'll ask you what are you doing participating in a DISCUSSION forum?