Raditz/Nappa Battle Power

[ZombieVito]

And? Surpassing even by one point is still surpassing. He is stronger than Gohan by his own words.

[Kakashi]

And? Surpassing even by one point is still surpassing. He is stronger than Gohan by his own words.

Evil a Boo said Gohan surpassed him when we know Gotenks had a slight edge. Raditz said Gohan is way stronger than Goku. Raditz is weaker than Gohan

[ZombieVito]

This is going in circles. Raditz never admitted inferiority.

AT even doesn't care for your gaps.

Bills: 7
SSJG Goku: 6

And he got weaker and fought evenly for a while with BIlls. This completely destroys your rules about gaps.

[Godo]

No, what it's impossible it's to make me accept assertions that lack any reasoning behind.

Those "assertions" are just as valid as yours, but you are stuck up in the belief that:

If something it's wrong, it's wrong.

Just because of that you aren't wired to think any differently.¨

Said the one with 1.2 messages posted per day to the one with an average of 0.1 messages posted.

To the guy who exclusively only contributes to power-level-related threads, which in turn means contribution = nil.

Your obsession with powerlevels don't solve anything, and don't change anything. Because what we see in the manga is what we see, and it is up to our own interpretation.
If Raditz was 1,500 or 1,200, it doesn't matter. Because either way, even if he was 1,000,000, Gohan's would have headbutted him real bad, because the plot dictated so.
If Nappa was 4,000 or 8,000, it doesn't matter. This is because of that either way, he would lose to either Goku (since Goku is the main protagonist), lose to Goku, Kuririn and Gohan combined (since they are the main good guys), or be killed by Vegeta (since Nappa only was the warm-up).

If we turn our attention to the actual plot, we have sufficient answers.
Raditz lost to Goku and Piccolo and Gohan, since he didn't trust his scouter/trusted it too much.
Nappa lost to Goku because of that Goku would have won anyway with the Kaio-ken.
That's in my opinion what we need to know instead of obsessing about numbers (whose point was to show throughout all the arcs that they were prevalent in, are unreliable due to characters knowing how to manipulate their power).
If numbers were enough to know if you can win a battle, then the characters wouldn't have thrown away the scouter when they had the technology available by Bulma.

[Kakashi]

This is going in circles. Raditz never admitted inferiority.

AT even doesn't care for your gaps.

Bills: 7
SSJG Goku: 6

And he got weaker and fought evenly for a while with BIlls. This completely destroys your rules about gaps.

Goku was weaker than Birus. Birus was dominating the fight vs SSjin God Goku. The movie made no sense anyway. Evil Boo never admitted inferiority

[ZombieVito]

As soon as Goku turned SSJ he fought evenly until they reached space. Going by your gaps that shouldn't had happened.

[Kakashi]

As soon as Goku turned SSJ he fought evenly until they reached space. Going by your gaps that shouldn't had happened.

Which is why the movie made no sense. Your point is moot

[ZombieVito]

But it was written by AT, it makes perfect sense. PL aren't everything.

I understand your pain now Kaboom, it's worthless to try and debate with them.

[Kakashi]

But it was written by AT, it makes perfect sense. PL aren't everything.

I understand your pain now Kaboom, it's worthless to try and debate with them.

No it's not and Raditz is at most at 1,300. There are Manga scans saying the Saibamen are over 1,200 and equal to Raditz proving my point

[VegettoEX]

The movie made no sense anyway.

You can't just say "the movie made no sense anyway" and then dismiss everything that everyone has brought to the table in an attempt to answer your question with regard to Raditz/Nappa/Saibaimen/etc. None of it makes any sense. It doesn't, it can't, and it won't.

I agree with others when they say that this is going nowhere, and specifically with you. Over and over again you create these threads in what I'm personally seeing as a thinly-veiled attempt to get responses that do nothing other than validate your own pre-conceptions/thoughts. If you're not willing to accept, compromise with, or even simply LISTEN TO anything anyone explains back or presents to you, then you're not having a conversation.

I'm pretty sure I've said all of this to you before. I'm not going to say it again. Enough is enough.

[Darkprince410]

Easily, he just wasn't at 1,500 at that time.

Remember that Goku grabbed his tail. He got weaker.

His power went back to him when Goku released his tail. Since 1,330 can beat Raditz so Raditz is at most 1,300. 1,250 is fine. Tori yampa said Raditz is slightly stronger than a Saibaman

He didn't say that Raditz was "slightly stronger" than a Saibaman. He simply said that a Saibaman of 1,200 rivaled him in strength. Given that we see a proportionally identical match up between Ssj Goku and 100% Freeza (150,000,000 and 120,000,000 respectively) resulting in a near equal fight, a theoretical fight between Raditz and a Saibaman shouldn't prove to be that different.

Besides, given how much stronger Nappa and Vegeta are to both Raditz and the Saibamen (Nappa alone being well over twice as strong as him), a gap of only 300 "units" would be considered comparably close.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Again, having a higher battle power doesn't mean that you will tank every attack from a weaker opponent, especially when the opponent isn't much stronger. Gohan causing damage to Raditz doesn't mean that he is stronger.

[Kakashi]

Again, having a higher battle power doesn't mean that you will tank every attack from a weaker opponent, especially when the opponent isn't much stronger. Gohan causing damage to Raditz doesn't mean that he is stronger.

The attack could of taken Raditz down meaning Raditz is weaker. Toriyama said Raditz is slightly stronger. Everything points out Raditz is between 1,200 to 1,300

[freezamite]

He hit Raditz really hard.

Yes, at 1307 hard concretely. This isn't someone with 1300 units of power that can eventually concentrate his ki on his punch in order to punch harder than what he should. This is Gohan that, as enraged as he was, attacked with a strength of 1307.
In other words, this was a strong hit made by someone at 1307 that can't go higher than that, and it contradicts every other single punch seen on the series where data was given.

Even still he never said Gohan surpassed him, he only mentioned Goku.

Freezer never admited defeat in front of Goku either.

This is going in circles. Raditz never admitted inferiority.

Why would he? Goku asked Raditz to spare Gohan because he was a kid, and Raditz told Goku "if I'm going to kill you, why would I spare a kid that it's much stronger than you"?

Cell didn't admit defeat either, was he stronger than SSJ2 gohan?

If Raditz was 1,500 or 1,200, it doesn't matter. Because either way, even if he was 1,000,000, Gohan's would have headbutted him real bad, because the plot dictated so.

If that's the case then why the hell are there tons of threads asking for vs, if the only reason is "the plot dictated so".
Goku SSJ3 was weaker than Pilaf, but kid Goku won because the plot dictated so. The magical answer.

But it was written by AT, it makes perfect sense. PL aren't everything.

Like Strong World, that was written by Oda.

You can't just say "the movie made no sense anyway" and then dismiss everything that everyone has brought to the table in an attempt to answer your question with regard to Raditz/Nappa/Saibaimen/etc. None of it makes any sense. It doesn't, it can't, and it won't.

No, that's not true. None of it makes sense is false. You have tried to justify a 1500 Raditz with assertions like "1200 to 1500 isn't that much" (even when Vegeta killed dodoria with a much lower difference) BUT I STILL HAVE TO SEE A SINGLE ARGUMENT DEMONSTRATING THAT 1200 RADITZ WAS IMPOSSIBLE.
The movies are the movies, and the manga is the manga.

He simply said that a Saibaman of 1,200 rivaled him in strength. Given that we see a proportionally identical match up between Ssj Goku and 100% Freeza (150,000,000 and 120,000,000 respectively) resulting in a near equal fight

WHY ARE YOU USING THE DAIZENSHUU TO PROVE THAT THE DAIZENSHUU IS RIGHT? We are discussing if the Daizenshuu is right or if it's wrong, and what you're doing is to bring what's in discussion to demonstrate your stance.
This is the same fallacy the religious people use to speak about religion. The bible it's true because it says that it was written by God, who existed because it's confirmed on the bible.

Yes, if we go by the Daizenshuu, Nappa at 4000 put up a fight against Goku at 8000+. But what's starting to be even embarrasing is:
1. The Daizenshuu was criticized by AT himself. So AT participating on a movie in who knows what degree it's valid to justify a number that contradicts the manga, but when he criticizes the guide then it's AT who has gone insane. A bit contradictory to say the least.
2. The Daizenshuu is right because it's said on the Daizenshuu. This is the ultimate fallacy. Yes, on the Daizenshuu 4000 Nappa fought evenly with 8000 Goku, and 120,000,000 Freezer fought evenly with 150,000,000 SSJ Goku, on the manga Freezer couldn't possibly be 120,000,000 no matter how one looked at it, and Goku at 16,000 couldn't do shit against Vegeta at 18,000 despite being a much better fighter.
3. If we reach a point where no reasons can be made, it appears the ultimate answer, "there are no rules but I'm right and you're wrong because I put the rules", "the manga has no sense even when it can be explained in a way that makes total sense" etc. etc.

Look, you not only have to try to justify Raditz at 1500, you also have to demonstrate why 1200 can't be possible. And now that I see that the "piercing power" of the Mankonkasappo it's only described on the Daizenshuu, even that isn't a valid reason at all.

Again, having a higher battle power doesn't mean that you will tank every attack from a weaker opponent, especially when the opponent isn't much stronger. Gohan causing damage to Raditz doesn't mean that he is stronger.

Again, why did goku use KKx3 if according to you KKx2 was plenty enough to beat Vegeta? Was he some kind of masochist?

[Kamiccolo9]

1. The Daizenshuu was criticized by AT himself.

When was this? From what I remember, Toriyama said that he wished he had had the Daizenshuu when he was writing the manga.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The attack could of taken Raditz down meaning Raditz is weaker. Toriyama said Raditz is slightly stronger. Everything points out Raditz is between 1,200 to 1,300

But it didn't take Raditz down. In fact, Raditz didn't even fall to the ground. It only hurt him like a bitch, which allowed Goku to hold him for a few seconds.

But then again... SS Goku was 150.000.000 and FP Freeza was 120.000.000, and Goku wasn't slightly stronger. So, maybe the 1.500 really isn't a good number for Raditz.

But then again, fuck the battle powers.

[freezamite]

1. The Daizenshuu was criticized by AT himself.

When was this? From what I remember, Toriyama said that he wished he had had the Daizenshuu when he was writing the manga.

Yes, that's the prologue he had to write. But in an interview published on another guide, he said that the 50x multiplier for Goku SSJ wasn't what he wrote... even when he wasn't asked for that!!!
I mean, the question was about something related to the SSJ design, and Toriyama couldn't resist to speak about how bad was that 50x multiplier on Goku SSJ.

But it didn't take Raditz down. In fact, Raditz didn't even fall to the ground. It only hurt him like a bitch, which allowed Goku to hold him for a few seconds.

Yes, Gohan SSJ2 first punch at Cell's stomach also didn't take him down, but it hurt him. And it hurt Raditz even more, because no matter how technical that grab was, Raditz phrases are:
"I didn't think you still had that much strength left!"
and
"Shit, that hit left me more weakened than I thought"

The phrases are not literal, but the meaning is. Two explanations where given and none of them referred at the grab being something special. Now, I can accept that that grab put Goku at an advantage, but what I can't accept is that a weakened Goku that at best had 100 BP left could hold a 1500 Raditz. And no, that wasn't for "a few seconds". A few seconds its 2 or 3 seconds, 10 at most. Raditz had time to try to escape the hold, to try to persuade Goku and also to beg for his life. Raditz was hold during half a minute at least.

[Kamiccolo9]

1. The Daizenshuu was criticized by AT himself.

When was this? From what I remember, Toriyama said that he wished he had had the Daizenshuu when he was writing the manga.

Yes, that's the prologue he had to write. But in an interview published on another guide, he said that the 50x multiplier for Goku SSJ wasn't what he wrote... even when he wasn't asked for that!!!
I mean, the question was about something related to the SSJ design, and Toriyama couldn't resist to speak about how bad was that 50x multiplier on Goku SSJ.

But it didn't take Raditz down. In fact, Raditz didn't even fall to the ground. It only hurt him like a bitch, which allowed Goku to hold him for a few seconds.

Yes, Gohan SSJ2 first punch at Cell's stomach also didn't take him down, but it hurt him. And it hurt Raditz even more, because no matter how technical that grab was, Raditz phrases are:
"I didn't think you still had that much strength left!"
and
"Shit, that hit left me more weakened than I thought"

The phrases are not literal, but the meaning is. Two explanations where given and none of them referred at the grab being something special. Now, I can accept that that grab put Goku at an advantage, but what I can't accept is that a weakened Goku that at best had 100 BP left could hold a 1500 Raditz. And no, that wasn't for "a few seconds". A few seconds its 2 or 3 seconds, 10 at most. Raditz had time to try to escape the hold, to try to persuade Goku and also to beg for his life. Raditz was hold during half a minute at least.

First, I did not say that second quote.
Second, I am familiar with that interview, and at no point did he insult the Daizenshuu. He said that he drew Super Saiyan as a 10x increase, because he didn't know what he'd make a 50x increase look like. He's speaking in an artistic sense, not an in-universe one. Not once did he say "how bad" the 50x multiplier was.

I personally don't care about power level gaps, so this entire thread means nothing to me, even though for some strange reason I keep checking it. But if you are going to cite interviews, you'd better provide evidence, otherwise no one will take you seriously. And be sure to actually read the interview instead of just taking what you want from it.

[KentalSSJ6]

The fact that the phrase your quoting says "Shit" only proves your using poorly translated scanlations to back up your arguments.

[freezamite]

The fact that the phrase your quoting says "Shit" only proves your using poorly translated scanlations to back up your arguments.

What part of "the phrases aren't literal but the meaning is" didn't you understand? I won't look for those phrases when they can be found 2 pages ago and that was the meaning of them.

Second, I am familiar with that interview, and at no point did he insult the Daizenshuu. He said that he drew Super Saiyan as a 10x increase, because he didn't know what he'd make a 50x increase look like. He's speaking in an artistic sense, not an in-universe one. Not once did he say "how bad" the 50x multiplier was.

What??? He drew the SSJ as a 10x increase, because he wanted it to be a 10x increase. I mean, how can you say he "didn't know what he'd make a 50x increase look like"? Since when there's a rule about how an increase has to be drawn exactly?
He wrote the manga with the idea of Goku SSJ being a 10x increase, said by the author himself.

And if someone isn't asked about something, but he feels the urge to bring that topic on the table it's because he had to be really amused at how bad the Daizenshuu was. I mean, no one speaks about something he isn't asked for if he isn't really willing to speak about it.
The 50x multiplier on Goku's SSJ it's like the 32,000 units of Goku's KKx4 against Vegeta, absolutely unjustifiable no matter how one tries to do it. Well, there's a justification though, "there are no rules besides that I'm right", but that one isn't a valid justification at least for me.