Battle of Gods bio for Gohan

[MDSTSSJ]

This is the way I see it:

BoG Gohan's Bio " power surpassing even that of a pure Saiyan " is the power he currently has at his disposal, and besides, he has reached its limits! " Power surpassing even that of a pure Saiyan " only account for Saiya-jins like Vegeta, Nappa, Raditz, Tarble, etc, just normal Saiyans and not for Kakarotto who is an special, something else, out of this Universe Saiya-jin.

Ultimate Gohan was stronger than his father in the Boo Saga and not by much in BoG's time ( implied ), but now we know that Goku have an immeasurable latent power which means that his powers are unlimited.

New Kakarotto's Bio must say: Pure Saiya-jin with immeasurable latent power!!

[Kakashi]

Ultimate Gohan > SSjin 3 Goku even in BOG

[Blade]

Ultimate Gohan > SSjin 3 Goku even in BOG

There's no real evidence for that, even in the manga towards the end of Buu it's only implicit on account of logic - but we know that any logic in Dragonball is only as useful in being used to draw conclusions as it is consistently followed - which is a problem considering Toriyama's flights of fancy and ad-hoc writing.

For example: Gotenks should be stronger than Goku if we follow the fusion multiplier and apply that particular logic, but the latter chapters of the manga don't do anything to corroborate it as fact - and in the JSAT and BoG it's more-than-implied that Goku is in fact stronger.

[FireLordZuko]

In all honesty until I visited Kanzenshuu I had never met anyone who thought Goku was not the strongest...

Where have you been? It's usually a pretty solid consensus that Ultimate Gohan is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Yeah you'll have those people that say otherwise, but there a minority based on what I've seen.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Ultimate Gohan > SSjin 3 Goku even in BOG

There's no real evidence for that, even in the manga towards the end of Buu it's only implicit on account of logic - but we know that any logic in Dragonball is only as useful in being used to draw conclusions as it is consistently followed - which is a problem considering Toriyama's flights of fancy and ad-hoc writing.

For example: Gotenks should be stronger than Goku if we follow the fusion multiplier and apply that particular logic, but the latter chapters of the manga don't do anything to corroborate it as fact - and in the JSAT and BoG it's more-than-implied that Goku is in fact stronger.

How is there no evidence in the manga? It been shown & stated that SS3 Gotenks & U. Gohan are stronger than Evil Boo, it is stated that SS3 Goku & SS2 Vegeta combined don't stand a chance against Evil Boo, it is stated that Pure Boo is weaker than Evil Boo, and it's possible that SS Gotenks is stronger than SS3 Goku. And if you add the guidebooks, we get that base Gotenks post-RoSaT is stronger than SS2 Vegeta. And even JSAT & BoG don't compare Gohan & Gotenks with Goku, since Gotenks was fucking around with the weaker than him Aka, and Beers defeated all 3 of them with ridiculous ease. And even 10 years after the Boo arc, SS3 Goku doesn't sound to have surpassed SS Gotenks, since Goku wasn't sure if he could beat Oob, who was supposed to be as strong as Pure Boo, who could have been killed by SS3 Goku's full power blast.

[MDSTSSJ]

And even 10 years after the Boo arc, SS3 Goku doesn't sound to have surpassed SS Gotenks

I have SS3 Goku stronger than pre/post RoSaT SS Gotenks.

since Goku wasn't sure if he could beat Oob, who was supposed to be as strong as Pure Boo, who could have been killed by SS3 Goku's full power blast.

Yes, Kakarotto wasn't sure if he could beat Oob but in his base form. In TB's Saiyans don't transform in to Super Saiya-jin and even less in to SSJ3. Remember, Goku says the same thing for Mr. Boo who is clearly weaker than SSJ3 Kakarotto.

Gohan's Bio is fine for other Saiyans except for Goku ( or Broly ).

[Kakashi]

And even 10 years after the Boo arc, SS3 Goku doesn't sound to have surpassed SS Gotenks

I have SS3 Goku stronger than pre/post RoSaT SS Gotenks.

since Goku wasn't sure if he could beat Oob, who was supposed to be as strong as Pure Boo, who could have been killed by SS3 Goku's full power blast.

Yes, Kakarotto wasn't sure if he could beat Oob but in his base form. In TB's Saiyans don't transform in to Super Saiya-jin and even less in to SSJ3.

Gohan's Bio is fine for other Saiyans except for Goku ( or Broly ).

SSjin Gotenks before the ROSAT is as strong as SSjin 3 Goku

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Yes, Kakarotto wasn't sure if he could beat Oob but in his base form. In TB's Saiyans don't transform in to Super Saiya-jin and even less in to SSJ3.

The Saiyans weren't going to transform into Super Saiyans because they would look familiar with the Super Saiyans from the Cell Games. However, no one in the Cell Games turned into Super Saiyan 3, which is a very different form from Super Saiyan.

So, we either have 28th TB base Goku >= Boo arc SS3 Goku, which is very unrealistic, since base Goku 5 years before was weaker than Freeza, and he got at most 2 times stronger after 7 years of training hard in the AfterLife, or, Goku didn't get all that much stronger, and was planning to use SS3 against Oob, which is more realistic, since Goku had admitted that he reached his limits after RoSaT, which is evident by his small increase after 7 years with Kaio compared to his massive increase after 6 months with Kaio. Not to mention that if Goku was looking forward for a guy to challenge him in base doesn't sound so exciting.

SSjin Gotenks before the ROSAT is as strong as SSjin 3 Goku

Goku said that SS Gotenks would be more powerful than him (though there is the possibility that he is lying), however, it is evident that SS Gotenks (pre) is stronger than SS2 Goku & Vegeta, and since Gotenks surpassed Vegeta after RoSaT according to D7, the only form left for Gotenks to surpass Vegeta is his base, meaning that base Gotenks surpassed SS2 Vegeta (and Goku, since they were equals in SS2). And since I don't see Gotenks getting times stronger after a week of training, since it would also make Goten & Trunks times stronger, which would make them stronger than the adults...

[MDSTSSJ]

The Saiyans weren't going to transform into Super Saiyans because they would look familiar with the Super Saiyans from the Cell Games. However, no one in the Cell Games turned into Super Saiyan 3, which is a very different form from Super Saiyan.

Yes but SSJ3 transformation is somewhat exaggerated and would cause a lot more impression, chaos, etc.

So, we either have 28th TB base Goku >= Boo arc SS3 Goku, which is very unrealistic, since base Goku 5 years before was weaker than Freeza, and he got at most 2 times stronger after 7 years of training hard in the AfterLife, or, Goku didn't get all that much stronger, and was planning to use SS3 against Oob, which is more realistic, since Goku had admitted that he reached his limits after RoSaT, which is evident by his small increase after 7 years with Kaio compared to his massive increase after 6 months with Kaio. Not to mention that if Goku was looking forward for a guy to challenge him in base doesn't sound so exciting.

But Goku said he would become stronger. Kakarotto knows perfectly that to become stronger must train differently than he did in AfterLife ( and he is the best in finding better ways of training to overcome their powers ) and also he could not predict that the reincarnation of Pure Boo would appear 10 years later. Plenty of time to become much stronger, plenty of time to surpass his powers with new methods, etc.

Oh no, not for Kakarotto!! Fight against another strong guy in his base form is very exciting for him.

[Zephyr]

Honestly I thought the little bio for Gohan was just regurgitating the old "Gohan, as a hybrid, has more power than the full bloods" schtick that's been a thing since almost the beginning of Z (I know Goten and Trunks are hybrids too, but it was Gohan who had all of that hype around him for such a long time).

You know, not something that's meant to be read into for power related debates.

[Zantetsuken]

[quote="DBZGTKOSDH]
How is there no evidence in the manga?[/quote]
There is "evidence to support both theories in the manga, but the anime and other media only support one theory.


[quote="DBZGTKOSDH]
It been shown & stated that SS3 Gotenks & U. Gohan are stronger than Evil Boo, [/quote]
It's not, Gohan maybe, nothing definative is said about Gotenks.


[quote="DBZGTKOSDH]
it is stated that SS3 Goku & SS2 Vegeta combined don't stand a chance against Evil Boo, [/quote]
No. SSJ2 Goku and SSJ2 Vegeta. Goku never even considers SSJ3 an option until the fight with KidBuu, Goku even threatens to beat Buu from the inside with Vegeta's help. In fact, when Buu first appreared, Goku figured him and Vegeta would be enough to beat him as SSJ2s.

[quote="DBZGTKOSDH]
it is stated that Pure Boo is weaker than Evil Boo, [/quote]
Nothing of the sort is stated or implied, it's actually quite to opposite. We see Vegeta Mock buu, and then him power up enough to overpower Both Goku and Vegeta. Vegeta is also quote talking about how powerful Buu is "Kakatoo fought this monster?!"

[quote="DBZGTKOSDH]
and it's possible that SS Gotenks is stronger than SS3 Goku. And if you add the guidebooks, we get that base Gotenks post-RoSaT is stronger than SS2 Vegeta. [/quote]
No, it doesn't say that at all. It states that ater ROSAT, that Gotenks Leveled up enough to surpass Vegeat and the others. With leveling up being the key word (SSJ3) which is why Vegeta, not Goku is mentioned. If this is true, Gotenks can't be stronger than Goku, and wasn't stronger than Vegeta until after finding SSJ3

[quote="DBZGTKOSDH]
And even JSAT & BoG don't compare Gohan & Gotenks with Goku, since Gotenks was fucking around with the weaker than him Aka, and Beers defeated all 3 of them with ridiculous ease. And even 10 years after the Boo arc, SS3 Goku doesn't sound to have surpassed SS Gotenks, since Goku wasn't sure if he could beat Oob, who was supposed to be as strong as Pure Boo, who could have been killed by SS3 Goku's full power blast.[/quote]
This makes no sense to me - Beers didn't consider Gohan anything of note, but he did with Goku and Vegeta. And end of Z Goku only considers Buu a challenge, not Gohan or Goten.

[dbzfan7]

I personally do not understand why Gotenks always seems to be underrated. To the degree he's underrated makes Goku seem like a masochist who wanted to watch his son die.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

There is "evidence to support both theories in the manga, but the anime and other media only support one theory.

What evidence are there in the manga?

It's not, Gohan maybe, nothing definative is said about Gotenks.

Piccolo said that Gotenks was as strong or stronger than Boo, and Gotenks was about to kill Boo when the Fusion ended.

Chapter: 495 (DBZ 301), P6.1-3, P7.1-3
Context: after Gotenks blasts Boo with the Rapid-Fire Die-Die Missiles and Piccolo stops him
Gotenks: “Well, whatever. I already did quite a lot, after all. He should be pretty weakened.”
*Boo comes out*
Gotenks: “…He ain’t weakened…This really pisses me off!”
Piccolo: “N-no…He is weakened…I don’t know about physically, but he’s weakened a little mentally…! Th-this is the first time…that he’s fought someone strong like you…He’s feeling flustered by someone whose strength is at least on par with his own…”
Gotenks: “Dehhehheh! So in other words, Majin Boo’s freaked out, huh!? That’s right! My strength ain’t half-assed! I’m the best in the universe!”
Piccolo: “Don’t let your guard down! He’ll be coming at you frantically now…!”
Gotenks: “Dahhahhah, that’s no problem, no problem at all! That’s just what I was hoping for!”

No. SSJ2 Goku and SSJ2 Vegeta. Goku never even considers SSJ3 an option until the fight with KidBuu, Goku even threatens to beat Buu from the inside with Vegeta's help. In fact, when Buu first appreared, Goku figured him and Vegeta would be enough to beat him as SSJ2s.

Goku was acting cocky against Oob as a Super Saiyan. However, Goku said twice that he & Vegeta don't stand a chance against Boo, unless they merge.

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P13.1
Context: still talking about how they’re no match for Boo
Goku: “…But there is one way we can win!”
Vegeta: “You want to say Fusion, right? Well who cares about that?!”
Goku: “Huh? You know about it?”
Vegeta: “I saw it from the afterlife…You’ve got to be joking! You think I’d perform those ugly poses…?! Anyway, I thought I told you that I’m not going to merge with you a second time.”

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P2.4-5
Context: after evil Boo appears inside his own body
Vegeta: “Da…damn it…! Th-this could be bad…”
Goku: “Di-didn’t I tell your to wear your Potara?! Th-this is why! If we could just go outside and merge, then this kind of guy would be an easy victory!”

Nothing of the sort is stated or implied, it's actually quite to opposite. We see Vegeta Mock buu, and then him power up enough to overpower Both Goku and Vegeta. Vegeta is also quote talking about how powerful Buu is "Kakatoo fought this monster?!"

Goku's & Vegeta's plan was to go inside Boo and rip everyone out so that his power will fall enough for him to be a match for them.

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

After Evil Boo transforms into S. Kaioshin Boo, his power increased even more though, with Goku & Vegeta getting scared of it.

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P13.5
Context: as evil Boo reverts to his South Kaioshin form
Goku: “H-hey…Vegeta…His ki is increasing, ain’t it…!?”

However, when S. Kaioshin Boo transformed into Pure Boo, his power fell, and Goku believed that they could manage something now, unlike against Evil Boo, to whom he said that they don't stand a chance.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.

He also said "we are almost there" and that they still don't stand a chance against him when Gohan Boo turned into Evil Boo, and after Evil Boo turned into Pure Boo, he says "we did it!", and believes that they can manage something now, which shows that their goal was to weaken Boo.

No, it doesn't say that at all. It states that after ROSAT, that Gotenks Leveled up enough to surpass Vegeat and the others. With leveling up being the key word (SSJ3) which is why Vegeta, not Goku is mentioned. If this is true, Gotenks can't be stronger than Goku, and wasn't stronger than Vegeta until after finding SSJ3

Goku was sure that SS Gotenks would be stronger than him. Even if he was lying, since he was lying about his own strength, he was sure that SS Gotenks would be stronger than Innocent Boo without training inside the RoSaT, who was stronger than all the Super Saiyan 2s. Even after SS Gotenks is formed, Piccolo never shown any doubts about SS Gotenks, until Evil Boo appeared, which was when he lost hope and put the kids inside RoSaT. This alone supports that SS Gotenks was stronger than SS2 Vegeta. Now if, according to the Daizenshuu, Gotenks surpassed Vegeta after RoSaT, the only form left for Gotenks to surpass Vegeta is his base, meaning that base Gotenks (post) > SS2 Vegeta. And since Gotenks didn't get times stronger through his training (the base kids are at most 2 times weaker than their base dads & Gohan, as their feats show, and if they got times stronger, then they would be stronger than the adults), it means that base Gotenks (pre) wasn't far weaker than SS2 Goku, which means that SS Gotenks (pre) is less than 50 times stronger than SS2 Goku & Vegeta, and over almost or over a dozen of times stronger than SS3 Goku. Meaning that SS Gotenks (post) is over 10 times stronger than SS3 Goku, and SS3 Gotenks is over 80 times stronger than SS3 Goku, and Ultimate Gohan is even stronger.

This makes no sense to me - Beers didn't consider Gohan anything of note, but he did with Goku and Vegeta. And end of Z Goku only considers Buu a challenge, not Gohan or Goten.

Beers didn't consider Gohan & Gotenks anything of note because they never did anything of note, since they pissed him off and he took them out in an instant. Goku & Vegeta on the other hand didn't pissed him off, which is why Beers allowed them to fight him instead of KOing them instantly.

As for the 28th TB arc, Goku doesn't consider Gohan & Gotenks a challenge because he isn't a challenge to them in the first place. Their difference in power is huge. And Goku was also exited because Oob was a new challenge.

[MDSTSSJ]

Goku was sure that SS Gotenks would be stronger than him. Even if he was lying, since he was lying about his own strength, he was sure that SS Gotenks would be stronger than Innocent Boo without training inside the RoSaT, who was stronger than all the Super Saiyan 2s. Even after SS Gotenks is formed, Piccolo never shown any doubts about SS Gotenks

Goku WAS sure that SS Gotenks would be stronger than Majin Boo, not stronger than him. And Goku lies about that Gotenks is stronger than him just to calm down Majin Boo. Piccolo showed doubts and wanted to test Gotenks speed.

As for the 28th TB arc, Goku doesn't consider Gohan & Gotenks a challenge because he isn't a challenge to them in the first place. Their difference in power is huge. And Goku was also exited because Oob was a new challenge.

Kakarotto never consider Gotenks or Gohan ( or Vegeta ) a challenge because they are his sons (except Trunks which is practically family).

Goku is excited because he is the reincarnation of Pure Boo, a being who was unable to defeat 10 years ago and wants to test his new powers after his hard training in that time!

It seems you guys always want to underestimate Goku and what it is capable of. It seems that if you guys could write DB again, would take away Goku forever when he died against Cell.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Goku just told Boo someone incredible will show up and fight him. Boo even asks him if they're strong right before Goku teleports away. He only told Piccolo that he told Boo someone stronger than him would arrive in a few days.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Goku WAS sure that SS Gotenks would be stronger than Majin Boo, not stronger than him. And Goku lies about that Gotenks is stronger than him just to calm down Majin Boo. Piccolo showed doubts and wanted to test Gotenks speed.

I did say that Goku could be lying. Goku's statements & Piccolo's actions indicate that SS Gotenks was definitely stronger than Fat Boo & SS2 Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan. It's the Daizenshuu & SEG that create the huge gap, by placing base Gotenks above SS2 Vegeta after RoSaT, and by giving the x50, x100, x400, and "dozens of times" multipliers for SS, SS2, SS3, and Fusion.

It seems you guys always want to underestimate Goku and what it is capable of.

It's not that I underestimate Goku, it's just what the manga implies. After the fight with Freeza and the Super Saiyan transformation, the near-death power-ups became small, and he didn't make any noticeable training gains until he entered inside RoSaT (after 5 years, he had gotten stronger, but he was still close to Trunks, and Vegeta, who was weaker than him, even managed to slightly surpass him, his power didn't multiply). After mastering Super Saiyan, he got a huge boost, and he became many times stronger. But after 7 years of hard training, his power didn't multiply, with his huge gains being SS2 & SS3. After 5 years of training, we learn that his base power is still below Freeza, meaning that after 17 years + 1 year in RoSaT, he got less than 50 times stronger in base.

There is also the fact that there are 2 limits (and by reaching their limits, I mean they stop getting huge boosts through training) indicated in the manga for the Saiyans: first limit was when they turn Super Saiyan (Vegeta reached his limit before he transformed, Goku didn't get times stronger after 5 years, near-death power-ups got small, and Goku & Vegeta wanted to surpass Super Saiyan instead of getting even stronger inside RoSaT), and the second is when they master Super Saiyan (Goku says he reached his limits, and both he & Vegeta don't sound like they got times stronger after that point).

So, base Goku suddenly surpassing SS3 in base after 5 years (or 10 if you don't want to count BoG) through training sounds very, very unrealistic. But hey, BoG gave him Super Saiyan God, and GT gave him Super Saiyan 4, and both forms made him the strongest, so there you go.

It seems that if you guys could write DB again, would take away Goku forever when he died against Cell.

Goku is my favorite character, but yes, that's what I would do if I had picked the manga at the point where Ultimate Gohan rushed to fight Boo. The whole Boo arc was build-up for Gohan & Gotenks saving the day, with Goku staying dead & passing the torch to his sons. But I still loved how Goku with the power of the whole Earth & all the friends he made through the whole manga, along with the power of the Dragon Balls, as a Super Saiyan killed Majin Boo. So, maybe I prefer the ending, but I don't like the sudden change from Gohan & Gotenks to Goku.

[Kakarot88]

In all honesty until I visited Kanzenshuu I had never met anyone who thought Goku was not the strongest...

Where have you been? It's usually a pretty solid consensus that Ultimate Gohan is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Yeah you'll have those people that say otherwise, but there a minority based on what I've seen.

I did not do the anime convention scene until recently and never took the time to post on formus but did read a lot so my exposure in that capacity has been fairly robust despite not particularly taking an active role until recently. All that being said there is a debate, and not a consensus as this thread demonstrates.

I can see the facts: Goku in one line hypes Super Buu and says he'll kill Vegeta as they are now and Gohan was winning, Goku also says he's really weak, and much more, also in favor of that idea is the fact that Goku when hyping Boo is freaking out and says he and Vegeta need to fuse clearly all signs point to Boo being incredible and becuase Gohan was on par Gohan must be stronger than Goku. While, also moments before when Buu-tenks [sic (but there's no better name IMO)] reverts to Buu-Piccolo [sic (again no better discription IMO)]...Goku says "even Gohan can beat you as you are now" implying Gohan is not as great, but that gets contradicted while Vegeta and Goku are inside Boo if you believe that's what Goku was saying. See facts on each side but becuase the inside comment comes later that should be given more weight. Therefore, as you assert Gohan must be stronger than Goku as the last statement implies that...if you think "as we are now" means unfused and not simply "as we are now."

Ughhhhh but that's the problem...taking those statements inside Boo is what adds to the debate. People either believe that (1) Goku is saying he and Vegeta are worthless against Boo as they are now meaning unfused and therefore unfused Gohan must have been stronger, no room for debate. OR (2) Goku is just saying he and Vegeta are worthless against Super as they are now, meaning inside him because they cannot beat him from the inside (ie they are smaller etc).

Those in favor of theory (1) which I agree makes sense then tend to bootstrap their argument by saying Kid Boo is < than Super Boo becuase Buff Boo was > Super Boo so kid boo was reduced. Despite the only line for that notion is Vegeta saying Kid Boo is a shrimp which is EXACTLY what he said whe Cell completed his Kanzentai and got his shit rocked. The point is Original Boo's ki is unknown.
"Toriyama Interview and Q&A - Shonen Jump #1"

What is Majin Buu's power level?
A: The frightening thing about Majin Buu is his unknown, unfathomable power. Whether it's actually not that much, or whether it's really stupendous, majin Buu himself probably doesn't know the answer."

So the whole Kid Boo bootstrap IMO holds liitle no no water as there is nothing whatsoever which says definiteively Kid Boo is less than Super Boo.
Moving on the anime throws a huge wrench into things cuz it has at one point Goku saying that this is the strongrest form which makes no sense since Kid Boo is def gotta be less than Boo han. Either way the anime also makes clearer that Kid Boo (or Original Boo I switch between the terms) is supposed to be the toughest:

Spoiler:

and heavily implies that Gohan and Gotenks would be useless against Original Boo

Spoiler:

In sum the debate is that either Goku's statements inside Boo mean (1) unfused, which a lot believe, Goku and Vegeta are weaker than Super Boo so Gohan is stronegr...OR (2) Goku's statement inside boo refers to the fact that he and Vegeta not only were seperated from a permanent fusion but also are significantly reduced in size so as they are now they are worthless, which makes sense too.

BUT WHO CARES!?!?!? All of that every last bit of that is irrelevant as the author made it where Goku is the savior (well Satan really is lolz) but you get my point.

Regardless on who is greater than who...based on who did what in universe etc...we can discuss it every which way. But for me, again let me say for me, I read the manga as pure entertainment as that was the Author'rs intent: make it simple stupid enjoyable for Japanese boys.

What points are you particular about in the movie’s story, for example?
Let’s see. Well, it hasn’t changed from when I was drawing Dragon Ball. At the time, since it’s a boys’ magazine, the readers are boys, so I was particular about “not making it too convoluted”. So it was the same with the movie: I was particular about kids being able to enjoy it.

And the simple stupid answer is the baddest baddie gets beaten by the strongest goodie Goku. Goku is "Numba One!" I find value in analyzing the manga if that's your thing, but for me that is pointless when he ends it with Goku and every subsequent piece of material for the series especially ads for Battle of Gods hyped "a being which surpasses SS3" and did not say jack for Gohan.

I don't even delve into all the convoluted contradictions becuase they came about as a result of the author changing how he wanted to wrap things up. The whole thing was headed to make Gohan the best and that gets scrapped in favor of Goku see the intended endings guide.

My point is the manga does a 180 and its pretty clear they even go through having Goku be like "Yeah uhhhh so I could have beat fat boo!" That's a total retcon.
SO, if you took the time to read the whole thing I applaud you, but please don't act as if it is cut and dry. It is not.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Goku says "even Gohan can beat you as you are now" implying Gohan is not as great

That's not what Goku says. He says "Gohan will be able to beat you even on his own", which implies that Gohan doesn't need help from Goku to beat him. Which could either mean that a) Gohan doesn't need help from the weaker-than-him Goku or b) he doesn't need help from the stronger-than-him Goku. But choice b) wins, because other evidence contradict choice a), as you said.

People either believe that (1) Goku is saying he and Vegeta are worthless against Boo as they are now meaning unfused and therefore unfused Gohan must have been stronger, no room for debate. OR (2) Goku is just saying he and Vegeta are worthless against Super as they are now, meaning inside him because they cannot beat him from the inside (ie they are smaller etc).

Goku says "If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in", meaning that the size isn't a problem. But even if Goku thought that they would stay small outside (I've heard that one before), he says that they can only beat him with Fusion... But how would flea-sized Gogeta beat the normal sized Boo? And even if you tell me that Goku & Vegeta got weaker when they shrunk, Goku doesn't notices that until much later, when Boo informs him about that. So, it's very clear that what Goku is saying is that he & Vegeta can't beat Boo with their power, except if they were to use Fusion or the Potara to merge.

Moving on the anime throws a huge wrench into things cuz it has at one point Goku saying that this is the strongrest form which makes no sense since Kid Boo is def gotta be less than Boo han. Either way the anime also makes clearer that Kid Boo (or Original Boo I switch between the terms) is supposed to be the toughest

But the anime has many contradictions, and it also wasn't written by Toriyama.


Seriously, the only reason this debate exists isn't because there are questionable statements, it's because people don't like the fact that the final form of the villain (Pure Boo) & the main character (SS3 Goku) aren't the strongest guys in the story arc. Toriyama did change his mind about Gohan being the protagonist, but he didn't suddenly retconned the characters (only revealed that Goku is stronger than he was saying, so that Pure Boo will be stronger than Far Boo, but still a match for Goku), instead, he introduced Boo's absorbing ability & Vegetto in order for Boo to get weaker, Gohan & Gotenks to go away, and Goku to return back to life, and all that in a crazy twist of events.

[hleV]

That's not what Goku says. He says "Gohan will be able to beat you even on his own", which implies that Gohan doesn't need help from Goku to beat him. Which could either mean that a) Gohan doesn't need help from the weaker-than-him Goku or b) he doesn't need help from the stronger-than-him Goku. But choice b) wins, because other evidence contradict choice a), as you said.

Goku means that Gohan now doesn't have to fuse with Goku to beat Boo. If Goku could've defeated Boo himself, he wouldn't have bothered talking about Gohan to begin with.

[dbzfan7]

The funimation dub is the only thing that said Goku could beat Boocollo...but the Japanese version does not say that...like hlev said...why bother mentioning Gohan if he could beat him now.

Though I see this thread blowing up real soon...there's a big CODE ORANGE...though it's not so bad yet so who knows.