Raditz/Nappa Battle Power

[Herms]

Whats exactly is wrong with Milk's (Yeah I know it's Chi Chi but that's her name in Mexico) 130 PL?

I guess nothing really. It seems a tad high, but I don't think it really contradicts anything, at least not any more than the others. Anyway, it's one of the ones that have never been reprinted anywhere, so that's why I thought maybe they considered it a mistake.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I may have jumped to conclusions. But "100% is not 100%" is not what I said by any means and I thought that you put that into my mouth to manipulate my stance.

Well, when someone is using his 100% full power, it means that he is using all his power without having lost any power. But you are saying that since Freeza is injured, he is only using the power that is left in him and not all the power he normally has (when not injured/tired).

Yes, he regenerated through a special cell he had that not only restored all his ki healing him completely, but it also gave him his Perfect Form without the need of having #18 absorbed.

My point wasn't that Cell restored his ki, it was a prologue for the next part to explain that Cell was close to Gohan in power.

There was never a serious clash between Gohan and Cell on the manga. Cell was always confident and mocking Gohan, he was playing with Gohan the whole time until Vegeta enters the scene, which was at the precise point that Cell was going for the kill.
Since Cell was attacked by surprise he couldn't react to Gohan's sudden surprise attack, and that attack was a KameHame, which we know is more powerful than a normal punch.
In other words, that kame-hame clash was all of it done under special conditions that compensated the difference between Cell and Gohan, it never contradicted Gohan having only half his normal strength because Cell was killed without having a chance of defending himself.

Well, Gohan won also because of Vegeta's help, but we've seen cases of people surviving a stronger than them Kamehameha (Piccolo survived the Super Kamehameha, and Vegeta survived a Kaio-ken x4 Kamehameha), so Gohan's Kamehameha should be back to full power through Gohan's rage boost to be able to kill Cell. At least that's how I see it.

No, English it's not my mother language, and in fact that can be what makes you say that "all" and "full" aren't the same. Both full and all are relative to what you refer to.
As I demonstrated with the example of the bottle, full can also be used in those two context:
"All that it normally contains/has".
"All that it can possibly have".

Both meanings are equally valid. When Freezer said that he would use his full power I took that with the second meaning, since he was (besides how injured he was left) still only fighting with 50% of his remaining strength. Since every single character loses energy when he is injured, I assumed that when he said "full power" he meant "all the power I can possibly release at this point" because his injuries were never healed or anything and it made sense to me on the context of the manga.

100% Freeza is like a bottle full of water. By using ki attacks, by having a hard fight, and by getting large amounts of damage, he loses more & more water (ki). The more these things happen, the more water he loses, and thus, he goes below 100%, to the point that when he doesn't have any ki at all, his ki is at 0%. An injured Freeza at full power isn't 100% Freeza. His body can normally/possibly contain more power than that.

Freezer said he was badly injured, and going by the series, that means that he lost energy. The way he expresses on chapter 317 after coming back from the Genkidama explosion also points towards injuries affecting his energy. On chapter 323 Freezer says something on the lines of "If I get stuck on the explosion (of Namek) I will lose even more energy than I already have" (there isn't a translation of that phrase on the strength checker, but the version of the manga I rely on when I can't use any of Herm's translations has been mostly accurate), on chapter 325 we know Freezer loses energy not only for becoming tired, but also for becoming injured (he clearly can't even fly after being cut by his own kienzans).

On the other hand, Toriyama saying that he drew the SSJ with a 10x increase over Goku's previous strength and not the 50x it's said on the guides also confirms that he had the intention of lowering Freezer's strength with the Genkidama attack.

Before the Genki Dama, Freeza was at 50%. After the Genki Dama, Freeza said that he powered-up to 70%, and then powered-up to 100%, which means that he got stronger than he was before. So, Freeza got injured, but not injured enough to lose a significant amount of power.

And like I said, Freeza's statement doesn't indicate a power decrease. Or at least, it doesn't necessarily indicate a power decrease. And the fact that Freeza says that he is stronger than before proves that this isn't the case.

That surprise attack was soft enough to not harm Dodoria. Vegeta didn't have the intention to go for a kill or even to severely injure Dodoria there.

I'm aware of that.

Emotions affect on how well one can fight, but being scared is never pointed as a reason to not being able to fight at 100%.

Well... check Goku vs Nappa. Nappa couldn't do shit to Goku when he was angry and in denial that Goku was so strong, but when he calmed down, he had an even fight with Goku, to the point that both Goku & Vegeta believed that this would have been a long fight.

In fact, Freezer was also scared when Goku quit the match...

And did the fight go better for Freeza?

You forget to mention that Freezer attack was also a mock on Goku, because it was done as a warming up. In other words, Goku mocks Freezer after Freezer has tried to mock Goku.

I had included the quote that says it, so I didn't feel the need to mention it.

Do you see the bottom part of page 127 where Freezer and Goku are going all out with their respective attacks, and none of them can surpass the other one with pure strength? Goku is clearly trying his best on the bottom-left panel of that page, even if he couldn't possibly expect Freezer dodging the KameHame, Freezer clearly hold up well enough against it.

Which means that Freeza's attack has a highest amplification compared to Goku's Kamehameha. Or that the fact that Freeza uses his whole body along with the ki attack helps. Or both.

And I would add another part of the fight that in my opinion is also key. After Freezer hits Goku with his attack and Goku arises from the bottom of the lake tired and injured, Freezer mocks Krilin and Goku's anger restores his power again.

So, you agree that power can be restored without healing your injuries. Even though I disagree that Goku's power was restored at that point.

Goku also told Ginyu that he was stronger and used KK to fool him, and it's also done by other characters in other circumstances (Vegeta for example fools #20 with the same kind of trick). In other words, Goku wanted to humiliate Freezer, and even if it was thanks to a Genkidama and the two times he got madly angered at him, he surpassed Freezer at the end.
Goku won, that's undeniable, and in fact both the Genkidama and the "rage boosts" were part of Goku's resources in battle.

Well, Goku didn't fool Ginyu, he really was stronger than Ginyu, since Kaio-ken is also part of his power.

I disagree. The problem here is that Cell's transformation traded speed for power, and this isn't an increase in BP in DB terms. In other words, Freezer powered up to 100% and in the process he doubled both speed, strength and damage resistance.
On the other hand, Cell traded speed for power and became an even worse fighter than he was before the change.

This Cell transformation and Freezer increase to 100% are described as something totally different, and anyone never says they're related on anything. It is, in other words, a totally different transformation with some resembling aspects like the increase in body size.

That's a good point but I think you jump to conclusions. What this quote means is that regular SSJ is more balanced than Grade 2. In other words, imagine that a SSJ with 10 million BP is 10 million in speed/damage resistance/force-power while a SSJ Grade 2 of that same BP would have the equivalent of 8 million in speed and 12 of strength/resistance to say something.
Grade 2 increased the speed in comparison to regular SSJ, but that was also because Vegeta powered up through that way. In other words, he not only went from regular SSJ to SSJ Grade 2 but he also powered up from lets say 5 to 10. Even if those 10 are less balanced than the original 5, it could still be possible for the speed to increase to 7 or 8.

What Goku says is that a regular SSJ with the same BP of a SSJ Grade 2 would be a more balanced fighter. But Vegeta went with Grade 2 much, much, much more time than Freezer went with his 100% bulked state, and Vegeta never had any stamina problem described.

Battle power calculates ki, it's not the overall result of strength, speed, durability, etc. Goku, Trunks, Cell, and Kame-sennin increased their battle power, but the huge muscles limited their movement, and thus their speed.

WoW. You've put me an example on how "full" can be something circumstantial to the situation, or in other words, you are perfectly aware that Goku could be using his "full power" in SS2 while still not using his real full power (that would be SSJ3).
If that use of the word "full" can be totally used for you without any problem, then why do you act as if you didn't know it?
I mean, copying your phrase, what I'm saying is:
"Just like in Namec arc, when Freezer was fighting with Goku SSJ, he was using his full power in his injured state, but not his full power in a normal condition, which is his full power in general."

I mean, at that point, with the way you've used the word full, you've demonstrated that my way of understanding "full" is also a valid and possible approach. You've done here with Goku the same you've been criticizing me to use with Freezer.
So, if we agree in that "full" can be used on contextualized situations that doesn't mean "full in general", but "full for what's possible at that point" then I think that what has to be done is to discuss if that context Freezer was in when he said he was going at "full power" is a context that could affect his "full power". Don't you agree?

But our argument about Freeza isn't only about Freeza being at Full Power, it's about Freeza being at 100% Full Power. As a SS2 in full power, Goku isn't giving his 100%.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

freezemite does make an interesting point about what Freeza says after he stuns Super Saiyan Goku for a bit.

Freeza: "If I'm caught in the explosion, I'll lose even more power."

That seems to imply his power decreased at some point. Or that his Chi was going down at that particular moment, which is very possible.

Honestly, I don't think Freeza's full-power necessarily has to mean he's fighting at his absolute best. The way I see it, Freeza is fighting with all of the power that's available to him, more or less. Pretty similar to Super Saiyan Goku putting out close to full-power against #19 when we know that wasn't his overall full-power, but the full-power that he had access to during the battle. Of course, in the latter scenario, it's plainly obvious why Goku can't use his full-power.

I don't really have a clear cut stance on this, as I could see it either way. When I first read the Manga and saw Freeza's "I'm still more than a match for all of you" quote back then, I always thought it meant...despite the fact that he was damaged and likely weaker, they were still too weak to make a difference.

[rereboy]

freezemite does make an interesting point about what Freeza says after he stuns Super Saiyan Goku for a bit.

Freeza: "If I'm caught in the explosion, I'll lose even more power."

That seems to imply his power decreased at some point. Or that his Chi was going down at that particular moment, which is very possible.

Honestly, I don't think Freeza's full-power necessarily has to mean he's fighting at his absolute best. The way I see it, Freeza is fighting with all of the power that's available to him, more or less. Pretty similar to Super Saiyan Goku putting out close to full-power against #19 when we know that wasn't his overall full-power, but the full-power that he had access to during the battle. Of course, in the latter scenario, it's plainly obvious why Goku can't use his full-power.

I don't really have a clear cut stance on this, as I could see it either way. When I first read the Manga and saw Freeza's "I'm still more than a match for all of you" quote back then, I always thought it meant...despite the fact that he was damaged and likely weaker, they were still too weak to make a difference.

Its fairly obvious that in Dragon Ball when a fighter gets hurt he/she loses power. Sometimes transformations or power-ups or zenkais or whatever negate that damage and that loss, but most of the time they don't, at least not completely.

A example, Gohan on Earth was able to fight Vegeta fairly well. That could only have happened if Vegeta had already lost most of his power.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

What's your opinion on Freeza losing power after being hit by the Genki-Dama, rere?

[rereboy]

What's your opinion on Freeza losing power after being hit by the Genki-Dama, rere?

I think Freeza lost a a very significant part of his power due to the damage. Also, Goku, when he achieved SSJ, got a very significant part of the damage negated by the sheer amount of energy that he received with the power up, but he would still be very significantly stronger if he had no previous damage.

In fact, I think that Goku had actually more damage than Freeza (since he couldn't barely move before the power up), hence why 100% Freeza was able to keep up with SSJ Goku pretty much until Freeza's stamina ran out due to his 100% form.

I think that the power levels for SSJ Goku and 100% Freeza, 150 million and 120 million, refer to their full power without damage. Thanks to the damage, and Goku having more of it, their power while they were fighting was actually closer on Namek than they would have been if both had no damage.

This also helps explain why Trunks was able to take out Freeza so easily despite Freeza stating that he had become more powerful than he was previously. Trunks had no damage holding him back and was probably stronger than SSJ Goku would have been in Namek with no damage.

[RandomGuy96]

Trunks easily defeated Freeza because Freeza was nowhere near full power, and scoffed at Trunks when given the chance to actually power up.

[rereboy]

Trunks easily defeated Freeza because Freeza was nowhere near full power, and scoffed at Trunks when given the chance to actually power up.

- We have no idea what kind of power he was using while he was fighting Trunks since nothing is ever stated in that regard. All he have is Gohan stating that Freeza had even more power, but that was before Freeza actually started fighting.

- We have no idea how Freeza's power works now that he is a cyborg. For all we know, now he might be able to power up to 100% without changing physically. So the fact that he isn't buffed up doesn't necessarily mean that he wasn't at full power.

[RandomGuy96]

Trunks easily defeated Freeza because Freeza was nowhere near full power, and scoffed at Trunks when given the chance to actually power up.

- We have no idea what kind of power he was using while he was fighting Trunks since nothing is ever stated in that regard. All he have is Gohan stating that Freeza had even more power, but that was before Freeza actually started fighting.

- We have no idea how Freeza's power works now that he is a cyborg. For all we know, now he might be able to power up to 100% without changing physically.

Freeza's "100%" is not just him not suppressing himself. It's another transformation altogether. If he doesn't perform the transformation, he doesn't get the power. And he didn't. Simple.

We do know that he wasn't at full power at any time before meeting Trunks, scoffed at the notion that he should power up, and showed no signs of a power up after the 'fight' started. Him being at full power is very unlikely to say the least.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

The way it's worded in the Daizenshuu, it wouldn't have mattered either way:

Freeza had tenaciously been revived and became a demon of vengeance. Through mechanization, he had obtained even more gigantic power, but he is completely powerless before Super Saiyan Trunks. Easily dodging Freeza's sneak attack, Trunks finely chops up Freeza and then finally eradicates the remaining pieces.

[RandomGuy96]

The way it's worded in the Daizenshuu, it wouldn't have mattered either way:

Freeza had tenaciously been revived and became a demon of vengeance. Through mechanization, he had obtained even more gigantic power, but he is completely powerless before Super Saiyan Trunks. Easily dodging Freeza's sneak attack, Trunks finely chops up Freeza and then finally eradicates the remaining pieces.

Not really. It doesn't say WHY he was powerless against Trunks. It could be because he was acting in character, I.e. being arrogant and refusing to take Trunks seriously. It's just reiterating what actually happened, as the Daiz often does.

Also, doesn't the Daiz also say something comparing first appearance Trunks to Goku on Namek?

[rereboy]

Trunks easily defeated Freeza because Freeza was nowhere near full power, and scoffed at Trunks when given the chance to actually power up.

- We have no idea what kind of power he was using while he was fighting Trunks since nothing is ever stated in that regard. All he have is Gohan stating that Freeza had even more power, but that was before Freeza actually started fighting.

- We have no idea how Freeza's power works now that he is a cyborg. For all we know, now he might be able to power up to 100% without changing physically.

Freeza's "100%" is not just him not suppressing himself. It's another transformation altogether. If he doesn't perform the transformation, he doesn't get the power. And he didn't. Simple.

We do know that he wasn't at full power at any time before meeting Trunks, scoffed at the notion that he should power up, and showed no signs of a power up after the 'fight' started. Him being at full power is very unlikely to say the least.

So is your interpretation. I was simply giving the reasons for mine. Obviously, like I said, I don't agree with Freeza necessarily needing to buff up now that he is a cyborg since nothing is stated or implied in that regard.

[ThePrinceOfSaiyans]

Raditz has a power level of 1,500 and Nappa has a power level of 4k

Raditz I thought had a good power level placed to show power but the lower end of the Saiyans, I thought Nappa may have been better suited at 5k or 6k but the battle wouldn't have ended any other way with Goku's power... So doesn't matter.

[freezamite]

Don't forget that there's a LOT of other power levels, including a few from that V-Jump list, that never made the cut or were deemed worth reprinting in the guidebooks. Whoever was going through those old numbers and picking them out for the Daizenshuu evidently didn't have a problem with Raditz and Nappa's numbers.

As for Toriyama's input, who knows? Maybe he did make up numbers for some characters on short notice, or had them in notes for his own reference, or something like that.

I just find it unlikely that he'd care enough to advise the anime staff on the specifics of Raditz's power level, but not bat an eye at a page being put into his comic that spelled out the power levels of Raditz and a bunch of actually living characters. He simply had to have at least looked at this and said "that's fine".

The page was not put into his comic, but on the magazine where it was published. Shueshia has the rights, and looking at some of the numbers I doubt that they consulted Toriyama about that. Kami below king piccolo, Goku at 910 (which is clearly wrong, it was Goku's Kamehame that had 910 units of power, but not Goku who was at above 400), popo at an absurdly high number...

when someone is using his 100% full power, it means that he is using all his power without having lost any power.

Until now I thought that this "100% full power" was your way to express Freezer's state, but it seems that you try to give it some sort of special meaning combining the two expressions.
"100% full power", written like this, is never said by anyone even once. Not that it matters (I don't see why 100% full power has to be different than 100% or full power) that much in my opinion, but Freezer says he will use 100% of his power or his full power, never "100% full power".

Well, Gohan won also because of Vegeta's help, but we've seen cases of people surviving a stronger than them Kamehameha (Piccolo survived the Super Kamehameha, and Vegeta survived a Kaio-ken x4 Kamehameha), so Gohan's Kamehameha should be back to full power through Gohan's rage boost to be able to kill Cell. At least that's how I see it.

The situation was completely different. Cell was playing with Gohan, so he wasn't using all his strength, and was attacking by surprise (so he couldn't react to the sudden attack). On the other hand, Goku's KKx4 was a technique that debilitated Goku at an extraordinary speed, so that KameHame started to loose strength the same moment it was launched.
Gohan launched a KameHame so concentrated that he put all his stamina on it, so it was the most concentrated KameHame seen on the whole series.

Even accounting for the difference in strength, the fact that it was so concentrated and the fact that Cell wasn't even trying his best and also was distracted by Vegeta, can explain why that technique was so effective.

100% Freeza is like a bottle full of water. By using ki attacks, by having a hard fight, and by getting large amounts of damage, he loses more & more water (ki). The more these things happen, the more water he loses, and thus, he goes below 100%, to the point that when he doesn't have any ki at all, his ki is at 0%. An injured Freeza at full power isn't 100% Freeza. His body can normally/possibly contain more power than that.

It is Freezer using 100% of his strength at a certain point. 100%, full power, all the energy... those are all equivalent expressions and can be used to describe the same.
In the context of Freezer as a character, your example is good. But in the context of the fight, it isn't. Freezer can't regain the lost strength at the middle of the fact, so in that context when Freezer gets injured or tired, the bottle breaks and can contain less water.
In other words, following the example of the bottle, I think that the correct approach is:
1. Energy lost that can't be regained is like cutting the bottle. Until it gets fixed the bottle can't contain as much water as it could in the past.
2. Energy hidden (because Freezer fights at 50% for example) is like losing the water, or having it on another recipient, and it can be put on the bottle any time Freezer needs to.

Before the Genki Dama, Freeza was at 50%. After the Genki Dama, Freeza said that he powered-up to 70%, and then powered-up to 100%, which means that he got stronger than he was before. So, Freeza got injured, but not injured enough to lose a significant amount of power.

That is if you grab one definition or interpretation of being at 50%. To me being at 70% meant that Freezer was closer to his current maximum than when he was at 50%, and the same with 100%.

Well... check Goku vs Nappa. Nappa couldn't do shit to Goku when he was angry and in denial that Goku was so strong, but when he calmed down, he had an even fight with Goku, to the point that both Goku & Vegeta believed that this would have been a long fight.

Yes, but that wasn't fear. Nappa got mad at Goku and he lost control of his ki. Fear on the other hand was never stated to work like this. Goku has fear when he fights Raditz, Freezer has fear when he fights Goku, Cell against Gohan... and never on those cases it was described that the result of the fight was influenced by that. The same goes for Dodoria.

And did the fight go better for Freeza?

Of course. Freezer dodged some Goku's hits, and also connected some hits of him. On the other hand Vegeta did whatever he wanted with Dodoria. To judge the whole fight for the final result its not fair, I mean, SPC also ended as dead as Dodoria against SSJ2 Gohan, but its undeniable that he was much stronger than SSJ2 Gohan when he was killed by him.

Which means that Freeza's attack has a highest amplification compared to Goku's Kamehameha. Or that the fact that Freeza uses his whole body along with the ki attack helps. Or both.

Yes, that could be true. Or also that at that point Freezer and Goku were equal in terms of strength.

So, you agree that power can be restored without healing your injuries. Even though I disagree that Goku's power was restored at that point.

Yes, I completely agree in that under special circumstances ki can be restored. But Freezer wasn't under any of those circumstances, while Goku was.
Regarding Goku restoring his ki at that point, I say that based on how affected he was by Freezer's attack (he even had problems to breathe) and after Freezer saying that about Krilin and Goku enraging again, how he seems recharged again (without any problems to breathe).

Well, Goku didn't fool Ginyu, he really was stronger than Ginyu, since Kaio-ken is also part of his power.

Yes, it's a technique and it's part of his fighting resources. What I want to say is that when Goku says that he surpassed someone it's not always referred to pure strength but to more factors that put him above.

Battle power calculates ki, it's not the overall result of strength, speed, durability, etc. Goku, Trunks, Cell, and Kame-sennin increased their battle power, but the huge muscles limited their movement, and thus their speed.

That's not true. Battle power calculates battle power, and it takes into account more factors than ki alone. When Goku and Piccolo take off their clothes for example, in terms of Ki they should be exactly the same, but their Battle power increased.
Vegeta explains to Pui Pui that Battle power is much more than power alone, that it also measures speed and other factors.

But our argument about Freeza isn't only about Freeza being at Full Power, it's about Freeza being at 100% Full Power. As a SS2 in full power, Goku isn't giving his 100%.

But its giving the 100% of what he can give as a SSJ2.

I think Freeza lost a a very significant part of his power due to the damage. Also, Goku, when he achieved SSJ, got a very significant part of the damage negated by the sheer amount of energy that he received with the power up, but he would still be very significantly stronger if he had no previous damage.
In fact, I think that Goku had actually more damage than Freeza (since he couldn't barely move before the power up), hence why 100% Freeza was able to keep up with SSJ Goku pretty much until Freeza's stamina ran out due to his 100% form.

That could make for an interesting debate. In my opinion, rage restored Goku's power and negated the energy lost with the injuries he had had until then. In other words, Goku's power wasn't restored by the increase that the transformation implied, but by the rage that activated the transformation.

This also helps explain why Trunks was able to take out Freeza so easily despite Freeza stating that he had become more powerful than he was previously. Trunks had no damage holding him back and was probably stronger than SSJ Goku would have been in Namek with no damage.

Even when Freezer says that, we also have Gohan saying that Freezer's power is much below what it was on Namek. In that case, I go with mecha-Freezer being much below what he was before, and Freezer saying what he says based on subjective perceptions instead of objective measures.

We do know that he wasn't at full power at any time before meeting Trunks, scoffed at the notion that he should power up, and showed no signs of a power up after the 'fight' started. Him being at full power is very unlikely to say the least.

In my opinion, Freezer being at 100% at that point (he has no reasons to hold back in front of a SSJ) explains why he would think that he was stronger when in fact he was weaker.

Regards!

[DBZGTKOSDH]

OK, so I checked statements & situations again, and I changed my mind: Freeza did lost energy from the Genki Dama. However, he didn't lose as much energy as you claim freezamite. IMO, the energy loss for Freeza wasn't very significant. Goku had also lost a lot of energy from his fight with Freeza, but he had a portion of it restored from his transformation. Freeza's "transformation" also restored some of his power, so their powers were balance enough for Goku to get some trouble from Freeza. However, the Full Power Freeza we saw was still stronger than 50% Freeza before the Genki Dama (if he wasn't, what's the deal with him saying "prepare to see my full power!"), and the SS Goku we saw was also stronger than Kaio-ken x20 Goku & the Genki Dama (if he wasn't, why did Goku completely abandoned Kaio-ken, and what's the deal with SS being the legendary strongest warrior in the universe if he actually isn't?), and SS Goku is still stronger than Full Power Freeza. The whole point of Super Saiyan was that it was the only hope that miraculously appeared after Goku's strongest attacks failed (Kaio-ken x20 Kamehameha & Genki Dama). If Kaio-ken was above Super Saiyan, we would have seen it again. But we never did.

[freezamite]

IMO, the energy loss for Freeza wasn't very significant. Goku had also lost a lot of energy from his fight with Freeza, but he had a portion of it restored from his transformation. Freeza's "transformation" also restored some of his power, so their powers were balance enough for Goku to get some trouble from Freeza.

I disagree with that. Goku restores his power not because of the transformation but because of the rage, this is proved at chapter 325. On the other hand, Freezer didn't recharge his energy at any point, he simply used a higher percentage of the strength he had available.

However, the Full Power Freeza we saw was still stronger than 50% Freeza before the Genki Dama (if he wasn't, what's the deal with him saying "prepare to see my full power!")

Freezer has no power of sensing KIs. He knows that he can be weakened, but it's impossible for him to be conscious about how much weakened he was.
From his perspective, yes he wasn't fine at that point, but he still had to show his maximum strength, so their claims were still more than justified.

and the SS Goku we saw was also stronger than Kaio-ken x20 Goku & the Genki Dama (if he wasn't, why did Goku completely abandoned Kaio-ken, and what's the deal with SS being the legendary strongest warrior in the universe if he actually isn't?), and SS Goku is still stronger than Full Power Freeza.

1. The reasons Goku had to abandon the KK are plenty reasonable.
2. SS being the strongest was a sayan legend. Of course, a legend like that wouldn't take into account the existence of a technique that a God developed years and years afterwards or other species unknown to the sayans at that point. Heck, if even the "sayans have unlimited energy" mite was destroyed later in the series...

The whole point of Super Saiyan was that it was the only hope that miraculously appeared after Goku's strongest attacks failed (Kaio-ken x20 Kamehameha & Genki Dama). If Kaio-ken was above Super Saiyan, we would have seen it again. But we never did.

KK wasn't stronger than SSJ. KKx20 was stronger than untrained SSJ and even then it had enormous drawbacks compared to untrained SSJ. SSJ had always the greatest potential and Goku always knew that.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I disagree with that. Goku restores his power not because of the transformation but because of the rage, this is proved at chapter 325. On the other hand, Freezer didn't recharge his energy at any point, he simply used a higher percentage of the strength he had available.

I don't believe that Goku restored any of his power in chapter 325, but then again, nothing says that he didn't.

Freezer has no power of sensing KIs. He knows that he can be weakened, but it's impossible for him to be conscious about how much weakened he was.
From his perspective, yes he wasn't fine at that point, but he still had to show his maximum strength, so their claims were still more than justified.

I don't think ki sensing is required to tell if he has gotten weaker. I mean, I can tell (and I'm sure you too can) when I'm hurt and can't hit as hard as I normally should.

The reasons Goku had to abandon the KK are plenty reasonable.

Well sure, it hurts his body, but he should use KKx20 Kamehameha against Cell, since as a SS he almost killed him. But then again, Goku decided to not use SSGrade 2 or 3 for the Shunkan Ido Kamehameha, and it's also possible that Goku didn't want to kill Cell so that Gohan could do it, so I guess you could be right. I still disagree, but I'm not saying you are wrong.

[freezamite]

I don't believe that Goku restored any of his power in chapter 325, but then again, nothing says that he didn't.

That's not what I wanted to say (the extra recharge in my opinion is at chapter 323). In chapter 325 Goku abandons his SSJ form to quit the match against Freezer.
If the power he gained was due to the transformation, once the transformation ended Goku should be at the same level he was before transforming (not being able even to stand up by himself).

Since he is recharged at that point even without being transformed into a SSJ, then it means that he recharged his energy besides transforming into SSJ. In other words, Goku was as strong on Namek as a SSJ as he could possibly be, because the "weakening" effect of his injuries was negated by the rage/anger boost.

I don't think ki sensing is required to tell if he has gotten weaker. I mean, I can tell (and I'm sure you too can) when I'm hurt and can't hit as hard as I normally should.

Yes, and that's something Freezer also can do. But what he can't do is to know how much energy he has lost.

Well sure, it hurts his body, but he should use KKx20 Kamehameha against Cell, since as a SS he almost killed him. But then again, Goku decided to not use SSGrade 2 or 3 for the Shunkan Ido Kamehameha, and it's also possible that Goku didn't want to kill Cell so that Gohan could do it, so I guess you could be right. I still disagree, but I'm not saying you are wrong.

Well, I think you're right at that point of the series. I mean, I think that we have two points where we disagree:
1. The original strength of the SSJ "multiplier".
2. The flexibility of the SSJ "multiplier".

As I see it, SSJ wasn't by any means a fixed transformation like the KK was. KKx10 for example always multiplied the user's power by 10, and the more mastered KK was, the least direct damage it dealt to the body.
On the other hand, I see SSJ as an evolving transformation. The SSJ puts the body into a stress situation, or in other words, untrained SSJ have the same problem Nappa had when he fought against the earthlings. They fight below their transformation capabilities (which would be something in the 40-50x range) due to that stress.

So when Goku fights against Cell, at that point there was no KK strong enough to be compared with the dominated SSJ transformation, the one that's not limited by the stress the SSJ puts onto someone's body. At that point I do think that the SSJ truly has a 50x multiplier over Goku's base power!

Regards!!

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So... I guess our debate is finally over then!

[dbgtFO]

Raditz is over 1,200 and 1,250. I don't think he is 1,500. Makes no sense. Nappa should also be much stronger than 4,000 when he fought Goku. What do you think?

I don't see the problem with Raditz at 1500.
Vegeta's line about how Raditz was pitiful for losing to powers barely above 1000 at best has already been pointed out.
The disregard for the number seems to come from the suggestion, that Gohan at 1307 could badly damage a guy with a supposedly higher power than his. While it is simpler just to have Raditz' be weaker than 1307, nothing says it's impossible.

I think it was Rocketman, who came with an example of a guy damaging a guy much stronger than him(Goku vs Great Monkey Vegeta's eye). From that example I think it shows that not every part of one's body has the same power.
So Vegeta in his Great Monkey form may have had a Battle Power of 180,000, but the power in his right eye could've been as low as 500, while Goku's blast might've had a BP of 1000, easily damaging it.

in Raditz' case maybe it's something like this:

Raditz(total power): 1500
-Head: 100
-Each arm: 100
-Each leg: 200
-Torso: 800

So Gohan ended up damaging him that badly, because of the gap of power between that particular point of Raditz body and Gohan's attack, despite the fact that Raditz' total power is above that.

As for Nappa I don't have a problem here either.
Here the official stance is questioned because of an apparent even fight, when Nappa calmed down and Goku thinking it could last forever.

Obviously Nappa did a lot better, when he calmed down, than when he started the fight, but it still didn't mean they were equals.

There could perhaps be a case of Goku holding back some of his power until he unleashed that Kamehameha.

• Vegeta said, if Nappa calmed down he could handle the level Goku was currently at.
• Nappa boasted about how he was going to show his true power now and Goku then said how he'd been waiting for that. Nappa said Goku was bluffing, but Vegeta thought Goku had power to spare and complete confidence in himself(not in the Strength Checker, maybe it should be).
• After Nappa and Goku traded blows, Goku said Nappa had gotten serious. Nappa took it as a condescending remark, implying Goku was just playing around.
• After Nappa's blast got deflected, Nappa couldn't believe how his greatest technique was merely bounced off and Vegeta found Goku's ability to deflect it at such a short distance unbelievable.

I think what Goku showed, when he deflected the mouthblast was the revelation of his full power, because both Nappa and Vegeta were left in shock at how easily Goku deflected the blast. So I think Goku basically showed here, that he was much stronger than Vegeta and Nappa thought.

Then of course Goku said that line about how it'd last forever, because Nappa was tough enough to handle some of the Kamehameha, but even before, when Nappa was getting tossed around left and right he didn't seem to be damaged much either.
So maybe Nappa can just take a lot of hits without really being that damaged.