Vegeta a Super Saiyan?

supersaiyanguru · Post by **supersaiyanguru** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:49 pm

If one must have a pure heart, why did Vegeta become a super saiyan? He doesn't have a heart of pure good, nor a heart of pure evil. Can someone please give me an in-universe explanation?

Majin Cell · Post by **Majin Cell** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:56 pm

Although i'm not positive, i'm pretty sure that pure heart line was only in the Funimation dub. The only things that are required officaily are 1. Having a high enough power level. 2. Being angry enough to transform.

BrollysKin · Post by **BrollysKin** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:57 pm

For the one brief moment that he was about to be vaporized by a meteorite, Vegeta wanted the power for the sole reason to be the best. Evidentley this was translated into pure evil.

P.S. This is all evidence from the televison series, not the manga.

(I think... Sorry if I botched this topic guys, its been a while)

Mr. Announcer · Post by **Mr. Announcer** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:04 pm

Yes, I'm positive having a pure heart has nothing to do with being a super saiyan. I've never heard it mentioned outside the dub. In fact, in the super android 13 movie Kuririn comments that Gokuh shouldn't be able to use the spirit bomb because as a super saiyan he's not pure of heart.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:04 pm

Krillin: Wait, how did he become a Super Saiyan? I thought you had to have "a pure heart".

Vegeta: My heart is pure... pure evil!

Volume 12, I think, of the Viz manga.

DaemonCorps · Post by **DaemonCorps** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:16 pm

Actually, that "pure heart" line was in the manga, as well, when Goku turns SSJ for the first time. Of course, that in turn brings about the question "How does Goku know this?"

An in-universe explanation would be that Goku was overpowered by the SSJ form and his natural instincts (kinda like in Ozaru form, but he could talk), which was really the one talking about the "pure heart awakened by rage" thing. For those of you who watch Avatar: The last Airbender, I guess it's kinda like how Aang knows some stuff that the past avatars knew without ever learning it himself. Anyways, according to the Transformation Guide, "The transformation into a Super Saiyan is generally caused by an overwhelming sense of rage and hatred."

When Vegeta turns SSJ, he shows how one doesn't have to be pure of heart to become SSJ and that rage is the key thing to reaching the state. In Vegeta's case, his rage was aimed at himself for net being as strong as Goku.

So I guess you could say that the pure of heart part was simply just part of the legend that was being passed down (of course, that doesn't really make sense, since Vegeta's original thought on the Super Saiyan was a Saiyan who was the exact opposite of the pure-hearted). An out-of-universe explanation would be that it was just a cool thing for Goku to say at the time, since everyone thought that the SSJ was this malicious beast thing. Go figure

...

supersaiyanguru · Post by **supersaiyanguru** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:14 pm

Thanks, that cleared up a lot for me.

Post by **TripleRach** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 2:50 pm

The "pure heart" thing is not completely accurate. Here are some examples of dialogue related to it:

Chapter 319:
Freeza: "W-who are you..."
Gokuu: "Don't you already know me!? I'm the Saiya-jin that came here from Earth to defeat you... A legendary warrior awakened by a violent anger, while possessing a calm heart... I'm the Super Saiya-jin, SON Gokuu!!!!!"

Chapter 343:
Kuririn: "T-this can't be...!! How is he a Super Saiya-jin...!! I thought you couldn't become one without a calm heart...!?"
Vegeta: "It was calm. Calm and pure... It was pure evil, though... I wished for nothing but to get strong... And so I fiercely trained over and over... At one point, I realized my own limits... With my anger towards myself, I suddenly awakened... As a Super Saiya-jin!!!"

The word "odayaka" generally refers to calmness and peacefulness and mildness, and "pure" doesn't quite have the same connotation. I think if the intent was truly "pure heart", it would have been worded similarly to the Kintoun explanation. "Kokoro" also means "mind" (it's heart/mind in the poetic sense, not the actual organs), so instead of "calm heart", you could also think of it as something like peace of mind or even having a clear head. "Pure" could denote the sense of clearness, but I think most people would think of a pure mind or heart as one that's innocent and uncorrupted.

But well, the common trigger for both of them, according to themselves, is intense anger while having a calm heart. Gokuu's almost always calm like that, but for Vegeta, it probably came from realizing his own limitations and losing some of his sense of pride and arrogance. Compare that to when he fought fourth form Freeza on Namek. He was very rash and overconfident. And instead of getting angry when he failed, he ended up getting frustrated to the point of tears. Gokuu, however, kept fighting and going all out, and sure as hell didn't cry when Freeza survived his giant Genkidama and killed his best friend.

You're right about Vegeta not really being pure evil, though. Especially at that point in time, he's already softened up a bit. I always thought he thew that line in to sort of say, "Mwahaha I'm Vegeta and I'm not completely one of the good guys!" It doesn't really seem to have all that much relevance to the rest of his speech.

Also, as a point of pure (no pun intended) speculation, maybe the calm heart thing is a requirement as a means of concentrating or focusing the anger into SSJ power? Most Saiya-jin, even if they were incredibly strong, probably never ended up in situations like Gokuu and Vegeta, which could be why SSJs were so rare.

DevilsAlwaysCry · Post by **DevilsAlwaysCry** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 4:33 pm

I thought that even in the english subtitled japanese version of the anime use the words "pure heart". I could be wrong though, I am not sure.

Alucard · Post by **Alucard** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 6:29 pm

Quote from episode 129:

Gohan: "Vegeta-san has also turned into a Super Saiyan!"

Kuririn: "How can that be? How could he be a Super Saiyan? I thought if you didn't have a calm, still heart, you couldn't become a Super Saiyan."

Vegeta: "My heart was calm and still. Still and pure. However, it was purely evil."

Now, I guess this means that in order to become a Super Saiyan, you have to be pure of heart, whether it's good or evil.

DaemonCorps · Post by **DaemonCorps** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:04 pm

Alucard wrote:Vegeta: "My heart was calm and still. Still and pure. However, it was purely evil."

Well, based on the quote from the anime, as well as the manga (which are pretty similar, anyways), it seems like Vegeta was just using an instance of wordplay there.

Realize that the Super Saiyan form was first accessed by Goku (as far as we know), so there doesn't really seem to be any rules that are set in stone. I'm gonna stick with the whole Goku not really saying the pure heart line, but having his natural instincts take control of him and have him say that.

Grandmaster J · Post by **Grandmaster J** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:24 pm

All that talk of how one must be pure-hearted to become a Super Saiyan is all FUNimation bullshit. I believe it has to do with ones power level rising over the course of many battles, since all saiyans grow stronger after every battle, mainly due to rapid healing of the body. It's all about strength, both mental and physical. Still, this is a confusing subject because of how Goten and Trunks became Super Saiyan at such a young age.

veshira · Post by **veshira** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:05 pm

TripleRach wrote:Also, as a point of pure (no pun intended) speculation, maybe the calm heart thing is a requirement as a means of concentrating or focusing the anger into SSJ power? Most Saiya-jin, even if they were incredibly strong, probably never ended up in situations like Gokuu and Vegeta, which could be why SSJs were so rare.

Actually, after reading your entire post, the calmness of the heart/mind reminds me a lot of enlightenment in Buddhism. To reach enlightenment, monks train to become accepting of everything, calm, and "awake" - that is, they notice when things happen and keep in mind all the little details. I think maybe the Super Saiyajin transformation trigger may be similar to what Buddhist monks aim for. (Well, at least the acceptance part.)

But what does "pure hearted" mean in Japanese? I mean, with the word "kokoro" meaning mind/heart, what's a "pure mind?" (Eh, I'm not sure where I'm going with that. Don't mind me. -__-; )

Mr. Announcer · Post by **Mr. Announcer** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:40 pm

The word I see used for pure most commonly in dragonball (with respect to Kintoun etc...) is "kirei." That wasn't mentioned anywhere in Gokuh's super saiyan speech but I suppose what he did say could have been translated as a "pure" heart. I just never thought of it that way.

Maphisto86 · Post by **Maphisto86** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:08 pm

I take "pure heart" to mean a emotional reponse that is free from doubt and not clouded by any second thoughts.

Goku: "It is a response to a need not a desire".

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:51 am

"Pure heart" is never said to be "Pure Good" or "Pure Evil", really. An alternate wording may be "Unclouded Heart".

DaemonCorps · Post by **DaemonCorps** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:57 pm

Duo wrote:"Pure heart" is never said to be "Pure Good" or "Pure Evil", really. An alternate wording may be "Unclouded Heart".

So... you could take it to mean something like "determined" which makes sense.

SonGokuGT · Post by **SonGokuGT** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:30 pm

Rocketman wrote:Krillin: Wait, how did he become a Super Saiyan? I thought you had to have "a pure heart".

Vegeta: My heart is pure... pure evil!

Volume 12, I think, of the Viz manga.

Indeed! It was worded pretty much the same in my Castilian edition of the manga.

veshira · Post by **veshira** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 4:24 pm

Duo wrote:"Pure heart" is never said to be "Pure Good" or "Pure Evil", really. An alternate wording may be "Unclouded Heart".

Thank you! That's very helpful. So, "heart" and "mind" are poetically the same thing. A "clouded mind" sounds like a mind that's clouded by personal desires and judgement, and when a Saiyajin, in a cornered position comes to a realization (of the truth of whatever it is that's clouded the mind, if anything), then they came become Super Saiyajin (so long as other requirements, unmentioned here, are met.)

Maphisto86 posted, "It is a response to a need, not a desire." Saiyajin cannot transform just by wanting to, which may have held Vegeta and Gohan (and Future Trunks in the tv special) back. Even with Goku, they had to see the unclouded truth, and fully realize that they needed to transform at that moment, if not consciously, then subconsciously.

Just to review, he's a list of what is known to be needed in becoming a Super Saiyajin (or at least, what I know, since I'm the one typing the list.

):
- must have Saiya blood, but females may not be able to transform at all,
- powerful emotional trigger; large amount of anger and rage,
- high amount of power, though actual powerlevel is negotiable,
- "clear" heart/mind, however "purity" and "innocence" have nothing to do with it, and
- the transformation must be needed, in other words, the Saiyajin has to be cornered without any other options.

Kanzenshuu

Vegeta a Super Saiyan?

Vegeta a Super Saiyan?

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