How did Yamcha et al beat the Ginyu Force?

[Draken]

Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it can't make sense to anyone else.

Did I say it can't make sense to anyone else?

You proceeded to explain away RG's post by saying "it wouldn't make sense", implying straight up it can't make sense, period.

[Saiga]

Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it can't make sense to anyone else.

Did I say it can't make sense to anyone else?

You proceeded to explain away RG's post by saying "it wouldn't make sense", implying straight up it can't make sense, period.

It should be pretty clear that I can only speak for myself with that sort of thing. It's all relative.

@RandomGuy Piccolo's gains are really irrelevant here. If they were there for any significant amount of time, it wouldn't be so illogical, but just because it wasn't said to be impossible doesn't mean it make sense. It just raises all sorts of questions in relation to other events, and there's no ready answer to these questions.

[Blade]

I think 90sDBZ's point about Piccolo's gains from King Kai is a good example of how characters can seem to gain incredibly lurid quantities of strength with little explanation in Toriyama's writing.

Tien and co. being able to surpass the Ginyu Force and Yamcha surpassing Olibu are both nonsensical from a logical point of view, but in relation to the lack of consistency in Toriyama's writing - they're actually not so out of place at all.

[Hugo Boss]

I personally believe Yamcha got much stronger to put that fight against Recoome and so Tenshinhan against the purple comet combination. Kuririn's V-Jump given battle power at 75.000 would make sense in comparison.

[Blade]

I personally believe Yamcha got much stronger to put that fight against Recoome and so Tenshinhan against the purple comet combination. Kuririn's V-Jump given battle power at 75.000 would make sense in comparison.

Well, in my opinion, it seems difficult to put Yamcha's gains from King Kai being any more than Goku's - especially as it's never even mentioned if he is able to master the Kaioken or Spirit Bomb.

Yamcha gave up fighting after Cell, and I'd find it difficult to imagine his pre-Androids and pre-Cell Games training amounting to any considerable increases in power.

Logically speaking, I would put Yamcha's maximum power in the narrative at being less than 10,000. But yeah, Dragonball and logic? They've never been comfortable bedfellows.

[Draken]

I personally believe Yamcha got much stronger to put that fight against Recoome and so Tenshinhan against the purple comet combination. Kuririn's V-Jump given battle power at 75.000 would make sense in comparison.

Well, in my opinion, it seems difficult to put Yamcha's gains from King Kai being any more than Goku's - especially as it's never even mentioned if he is able to master the Kaioken or Spirit Bomb.

Yamcha gave up fighting after Cell, and I'd find it difficult to imagine his pre-Androids and pre-Cell Games training amounting to any considerable increases in power.

Logically speaking, I would put Yamcha's maximum power in the narrative at being less than 10,000. But yeah, Dragonball and logic? They've never been comfortable bedfellows.

I don't correlate being able to master the Kaioken and Spirit Bomb as something that requires power. It seems more "genius at fighting" related than "he's so strong he can do this super special awesome technique" related.

[Blade]

I personally believe Yamcha got much stronger to put that fight against Recoome and so Tenshinhan against the purple comet combination. Kuririn's V-Jump given battle power at 75.000 would make sense in comparison.

Well, in my opinion, it seems difficult to put Yamcha's gains from King Kai being any more than Goku's - especially as it's never even mentioned if he is able to master the Kaioken or Spirit Bomb.

Yamcha gave up fighting after Cell, and I'd find it difficult to imagine his pre-Androids and pre-Cell Games training amounting to any considerable increases in power.

Logically speaking, I would put Yamcha's maximum power in the narrative at being less than 10,000. But yeah, Dragonball and logic? They've never been comfortable bedfellows.

I don't correlate being able to master the Kaioken and Spirit Bomb as something that requires power. It seems more "genius at fighting" related than "he's so strong he can do this super special awesome technique" related.

Nevertheless - does it really make any sense that Yamcha would get more from King Kai's training than Goku? If Goku is a 'genius at fighting' would it not stand to reason that he would benefit more from King Kai's tuition?

[Draken]

He was there for far longer and had more intensive training.

[90sDBZ]

I think what some people forget is that Yamcha and co. had eachother to spar with while Goku was pretty much on his own. If there's one thing I've learned about DBZ it's that sparring is the key to high gains. Here's some examples:

-Piccolo got insanely strong training for the Androids because he had a Super Saiyan to spar with. And Goku in turn had Piccolo to spar with.
-Goku and Gohan made WAY bigger gains in 1 day in the Time Chamber than Vegeta and Trunks did in 2 days. This was likely due to the fact that Goku and Gohan spared constantly while Vegeta was too proud to accept Trunks' help
-Yamcha, Krillin, Tien and Chiaotzu also made bigger gains than Goku did from training with Korin and Kami so it would stand to reason that the same would be true for King Kai's training

[CaptainKatsura]

I estimate that if Yamcha spend the same amount at King Kai's planet as Goku he could be at circa 25.000 without Kaiouken, but again, he didn't spend there that much time. Not sure if enough to beat Ginyu Force even with Kaiouken.

[Saiga]

I think what some people forget is that Yamcha and co. had eachother to spar with while Goku was pretty much on his own. If there's one thing I've learned about DBZ it's that sparring is the key to high gains. Here's some examples:

-Piccolo got insanely strong training for the Androids because he had a Super Saiyan to spar with. And Goku in turn had Piccolo to spar with.
-Goku and Gohan made WAY bigger gains in 1 day in the Time Chamber than Vegeta and Trunks did in 2 days. This was likely due to the fact that Goku and Gohan spared constantly while Vegeta was too proud to accept Trunks' help
-Yamcha, Krillin, Tenshinhan and Chiaotzu also made bigger gains than Goku did from training with Karin and Kami so it would stand to reason that the same would be true for King Kai's training

Sure, but that's missing something pretty big. This filler takes place 6 days into their training, so unless you think they make practically all of their gains in the first week or a year or more long training session, it's not a good comparison. After the full training is done, it wouldn't be as hard to swallow them being around Ginyu's teammates.

[RandomGuy96]

I think what some people forget is that Yamcha and co. had eachother to spar with while Goku was pretty much on his own. If there's one thing I've learned about DBZ it's that sparring is the key to high gains. Here's some examples:

-Piccolo got insanely strong training for the Androids because he had a Super Saiyan to spar with. And Goku in turn had Piccolo to spar with.
-Goku and Gohan made WAY bigger gains in 1 day in the Time Chamber than Vegeta and Trunks did in 2 days. This was likely due to the fact that Goku and Gohan spared constantly while Vegeta was too proud to accept Trunks' help
-Yamcha, Krillin, Tenshinhan and Chiaotzu also made bigger gains than Goku did from training with Karin and Kami so it would stand to reason that the same would be true for King Kai's training

Sure, but that's missing something pretty big. This filler takes place 6 days into their training, so unless you think they make practically all of their gains in the first week or a year or more long training session, it's not a good comparison. After the full training is done, it wouldn't be as hard to swallow them being around Ginyu's teammates.

Well, there's the implications about Piccolo getting stronger than Nail, Krillin, and Gohan during those same six days, plus the implications about the humans in the android arc. And the nonsensical nature of power-ups in general in this series. I don't think training gains have ever really made sense; for example, Piccolo got eight times stronger doing MOUNTAIN training for six months. Goku trained for five years under a god and didn't even double. The humans trained under the same god for ONE year and got 6-8 times stronger. Piccolo got one hundred times stronger in five years (end of Namek--->arrival of androids) while Goku again likely didn't even double his power.

I mean come on: this is the series where the hero went from "can't even touch the villain" to "evenly matched with a stronger version of the same villain" from drinking magical water.

[Kid Buu]

After a villain gets beaten they either turn good or become shit

/dragonballlogic

[CaptainKatsura]

And if it's not a filler scene, I think that Piccolo didn't even spend much effort on training during those 6 days, more meditating than doing anything. So jumping from 1220-3500 to at least over 42.000 is silly.

[Blade]

And if it's not a filler scene, I think that Piccolo didn't even spend much effort on training during those 6 days, more meditating than doing anything. So jumping from 1220-3500 to at least over 42.000 is silly.

Sure, that's always been how I've preferred to see it - that Piccolo wasn't really all that much stronger than he was when he died on Earth when he arrived on Namek, and that his incredible gains came solely from his merger with Nail.

That, however, is nothing more than a futile attempt of mine to imbue an inch of logic into the narrative! It almost feels like sometimes Toriyama is playing games with fans like us who try to make sense of and catalog power scalings by deliberately refusing to follow a linear pattern that adheres to any form of established in-universe logic.

[90sDBZ]

And if it's not a filler scene, I think that Piccolo didn't even spend much effort on training during those 6 days, more meditating than doing anything. So jumping from 1220-3500 to at least over 42.000 is silly.

Sure, that's always been how I've preferred to see it - that Piccolo wasn't really all that much stronger than he was when he died on Earth when he arrived on Namek, and that his incredible gains came solely from his merger with Nail.

That, however, is nothing more than a futile attempt of mine to imbue an inch of logic into the narrative! It almost feels like sometimes Toriyama is playing games with fans like us who try to make sense of and catalog power scalings by deliberately refusing to follow a linear pattern that adheres to any form of established in-universe logic.

But Piccolo did say that King Kai's training did wonders for his strength when he told Gohan to wish him to namek. And he felt confident in beating Frieza who he already knew was stronger than Vegeta, the guy he knew he couldn't touch on earth. I think it would be out of character for Piccolo to do something that futile. He must have gained a lot imo.

[FoolsGil]

*sigh* and just like that, it became a power level thread

[freezamite]

Invisible Kaioken? Only thing that possibly works to make sense of it.

Nah, random KK could also work. Every time an aura is drawm, a random KKx10 activation is awaiting behind!!!

[Blade]

And if it's not a filler scene, I think that Piccolo didn't even spend much effort on training during those 6 days, more meditating than doing anything. So jumping from 1220-3500 to at least over 42.000 is silly.

Sure, that's always been how I've preferred to see it - that Piccolo wasn't really all that much stronger than he was when he died on Earth when he arrived on Namek, and that his incredible gains came solely from his merger with Nail.

That, however, is nothing more than a futile attempt of mine to imbue an inch of logic into the narrative! It almost feels like sometimes Toriyama is playing games with fans like us who try to make sense of and catalog power scalings by deliberately refusing to follow a linear pattern that adheres to any form of established in-universe logic.

But Piccolo did say that King Kai's training did wonders for his strength when he told Gohan to wish him to namek. And he felt confident in beating Freeza who he already knew was stronger than Vegeta, the guy he knew he couldn't touch on earth. I think it would be out of character for Piccolo to do something that futile. He must have gained a lot imo.

I guess it depends which Piccolo we're talking about here - the wise, calm and considered Piccolo of later Z or the impetuous, rash and cocky Piccolo of early Z. Piccolo's attitude changed dramatically after his merger with Nail, but I'd say that before that point he was still pretty hot blooded. His conversation about his strength with Gohan could have included boasts, and it's more than likely he was still so pissed off about being killed by Nappa on Earth that he wanted a shot at settling the score.

[90sDBZ]

True Piccolo did change in personality but even in the saiyan saga he was very cautious about how he fought and clearly knew and admitted he couldn't beat the saiyans. He was outclassed by Nappa so challenging someone he knew to be stronger than Vegeta would have been outright suicide unless he had gotten a lot stronger. Furthermore he remained confident and excited for battle when he arrived on namek. And Nail who was on par with the likes of Recoome, Burter and Jeice complemented him on his power.