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Wait, what? I didn't say that. In fact, the Boo saga is my favorite saga!thatdbzguy wrote:A few things to keep in mind:
D. The fact that pretty much everyone here agree that DBZ sucks past the Namek arc should be a testament to its poor quality.
Okay, at least we know you are talking about the manga, but that raises even more questions.thatdbzguy wrote:A few things to keep in mind:
A. I'm talking about the manga, not the anime.
B. I'm leaving the first half of the story out of this because it's objectively good, so talking about it would be pointless.
C. I like DBZ more than DB, but I acknowledge that DBZ is crap, unlike DB.
D. The fact that pretty much everyone here agree that DBZ sucks past the Namek arc should be a testament to its poor quality.
AB. How the fuck are you talking about the manga yet you're ignoring Dragonball? The Db manga isn't fucking separated. If you mean manga then its ALL MANGA.thatdbzguy wrote:A few things to keep in mind:
A. I'm talking about the manga, not the anime.
B. I'm leaving the first half of the story out of this because it's objectively good, so talking about it would be pointless.
C. I like DBZ more than DB, but I acknowledge that DBZ is crap, unlike DB.
D. The fact that pretty much everyone here agree that DBZ sucks past the Namek arc should be a testament to its poor quality.
Please be more respectful when replying to others. If you disagree with someone, you don't need to talk down to them or imply ignorance.TheGmGoken wrote:AB. How the fuck are you talking about the manga yet you're ignoring Dragonball? The Db manga isn't fucking separated. If you mean manga then its ALL MANGA.
D. Everyone here? Do you even come on kanzenshuu? Some people here prefer Boo arc over them all. That claim is ignorant and bullshit.
Khalid Shahin wrote:Yeah, pretty much sums the show up right there.Dragon Soul Funimation Lyrics wrote:Nothing ever dies; we will rise again!
Just because I like DBZ more, that does not make it a better series than DB.theawesomepossum777 wrote:Okay, at least we know you are talking about the manga, but that raises even more questions.thatdbzguy wrote:A few things to keep in mind:
A. I'm talking about the manga, not the anime.
B. I'm leaving the first half of the story out of this because it's objectively good, so talking about it would be pointless.
C. I like DBZ more than DB, but I acknowledge that DBZ is crap, unlike DB.
D. The fact that pretty much everyone here agree that DBZ sucks past the Namek arc should be a testament to its poor quality.
1. Why are you still separating Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z into two stories? It is only one story, and that is Dragon Ball. If you are getting this idea from Viz's division of the manga into two series, then you should stop.
2. The first half of the story is objectively good? What does that even mean? Are you saying this based off critical acclaim of that part of the series? If so, show me your sources. I distinctly remember from somewhere on this site that the Freeza arc is when DB peaked in popularity in Japan. This is an objective statement. If I wanted to put a statement in a research paper about the sales and acclaim of the series, I would put that Dragon Ball was at its most popular in Japan during the Freeza arc based on popularity polls and Weekly Jump sales and volume sales.
3. Does this mean you like the first half of the series better than the Z portion? If you can acknowledge that "Z is crap," then why can't you say the same for the first six arcs of the series seeing how you like it less? This is like saying that you like post-timeskip One Piece more than pre-timeskip One Piece, but you acknowledge that post-timeskip is crap, unlike pre-timeskip. Tell me that makes sense.
I'm not even going to ask about your last point seeing how that is anecdotal. Ultimately, I think the word your are looking for is "subjective."
Khalid Shahin wrote:Yeah, pretty much sums the show up right there.Dragon Soul Funimation Lyrics wrote:Nothing ever dies; we will rise again!
For the sake of getting my point across, I'll be using DB and DBZ. So what you're saying is that you like DB for its story, yet you like DBZ better for everything else. That is fine if that is what you mean. What I do not get is that you state that DBZ is bad as a fact. You prove this with opinions from a fansite's forums. Don't just look here. You are using ancedotal evidence. It's like saying a game sold well because it sold out at your local GameStop. DB's story being better than DBZ's is not a fact everyone around the world knows. That is subjective. Hell, there are many people who like DBZ's story better. Stop using 10 peoples' opinions as a fact everyone should know.thatdbzguy wrote:Just because I like DBZ more, that does not make it a better series than DB.theawesomepossum777 wrote:Okay, at least we know you are talking about the manga, but that raises even more questions.thatdbzguy wrote:A few things to keep in mind:
A. I'm talking about the manga, not the anime.
B. I'm leaving the first half of the story out of this because it's objectively good, so talking about it would be pointless.
C. I like DBZ more than DB, but I acknowledge that DBZ is crap, unlike DB.
D. The fact that pretty much everyone here agree that DBZ sucks past the Namek arc should be a testament to its poor quality.
1. Why are you still separating Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z into two stories? It is only one story, and that is Dragon Ball. If you are getting this idea from Viz's division of the manga into two series, then you should stop.
2. The first half of the story is objectively good? What does that even mean? Are you saying this based off critical acclaim of that part of the series? If so, show me your sources. I distinctly remember from somewhere on this site that the Freeza arc is when DB peaked in popularity in Japan. This is an objective statement. If I wanted to put a statement in a research paper about the sales and acclaim of the series, I would put that Dragon Ball was at its most popular in Japan during the Freeza arc based on popularity polls and Weekly Jump sales and volume sales.
3. Does this mean you like the first half of the series better than the Z portion? If you can acknowledge that "Z is crap," then why can't you say the same for the first six arcs of the series seeing how you like it less? This is like saying that you like post-timeskip One Piece more than pre-timeskip One Piece, but you acknowledge that post-timeskip is crap, unlike pre-timeskip. Tell me that makes sense.
I'm not even going to ask about your last point seeing how that is anecdotal. Ultimately, I think the word your are looking for is "subjective."
I'm pretty sure everyone here agrees that DB has significantly less problems with it than DBZ, and it does not fall victim to any of the things I stated in my first post on this thread. That is why DB is objectively better than DBZ, because it contains less things that nobody would consider good.
No, I mean that DB has an objectively better story than DBZ. I don't know what I like about DBZ.theawesomepossum777 wrote: So what you're saying is that you like DB for its story, yet you like DBZ better for everything else.
Khalid Shahin wrote:Yeah, pretty much sums the show up right there.Dragon Soul Funimation Lyrics wrote:Nothing ever dies; we will rise again!
What do you mean by "objectively better"? As it has been said, everything regarding entertainment and art is entirely subjective. Just because a great amount of people might agree that something is better than another thing, that doesn't mean that you or I will agree with that opinion. In fact, you might say a certain series is "objectively better" than another, and I might honestly disagree entirely. How can that be if its objectively better? Because its subjective, not objective. The most you can get is a great amount of people agreeing that a series or certain elements are good or better, but that doesn't make it true for someone else with another opinion.thatdbzguy wrote:No, I mean that DB has an objectively better story than DBZ. I don't know what I like about DBZ.theawesomepossum777 wrote: So what you're saying is that you like DB for its story, yet you like DBZ better for everything else.
It's like the impact professionalism had on sports like rugby. Nowadays, most players who aren't professional are considered useless. Continuing with this analogy, let's say the Z Warriors are a first XV rugby team. Very few players are able to nail down and maintain a constant place in their team's first XV for the duration of their career. Most of the time, they'll end up losing their place on the team to another player at some point, be it from a slump in form or if someone is simply better than them. I like to think that this is what happened to the likes of Kuririn, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, and to a lesser extent Piccolo. They were players on the first team, however new players signed contracts with their club (Vegeta, Trunks, etc.) and have now replaced them and nailed down those starting positions. ThatDBZGuy didn't mention him in this point, but this analogy also applies to "the team's" reliance on Goku. I like to think that what he is to the Z Fighters is like what Brian O'Driscoll is to Ireland. He's a key player who has a huge influence on the team and the way it operates, not just in terms of playing ability, but also as an inspirational figure. When he returns from an injury, there's always a sense of renewed confidence in the team. See the Artificial Humans/Cell arc.thatdbzguy wrote:
Making everyone who isn't a Saiyan useless
This one is pretty self-explanatory. A good story knows how to properly balance the relevance of each character. DBZ does not do this.
Again, rugby analogy.Far too heavy of a reliance on characters making stupid decisions just to move the plot forward
Goku letting Vegeta go was stupid. Freeza ignoring Dende as he flew past him was stupid. Krillin never using the Kienzan + Taiyoken combo was stupid. Letting Gero create the androids was stupid. Vegeta letting Cell reach his perfect form was stupid. Goku not telling anyone about the RoSaT during the 3 year wait was stupid (although the RoSaT itself is a major deus ex machina). Goku not finishing off Fat Buu while he had the chance was stupid. Not saving time by teaching the fusion dance to Goten and Trunks in the RoSaT was stupid. A story should not have to rely so heavily on the stupidity of its characters.
Very often in tight games, the result of a match can hinge on the decisions made by players, coaches, or officials, rather than one team simply outplaying the other.So...what you're getting at here, is that the story just isn't good. I can see that, but at the same time, I feel like there's so much else to like about DB, that it's easy to overlook some of its greatest weaknesses. In a way, it's part of its charm. Toriyama is such a relatable guy.It's fine to enjoy DBZ, but for the very few fans out there who still consider it good, please open your eyes. A story that's guilty of everything I've talked about just isn't good.
So...future podcast topic?VegettoEX wrote:There's so much to go into. It's absolutely incredibly interesting and boggles my mind. The psychology of why my absolute favorite series may not even be that good on a basic writing level excites me on this bizarre psychological level. It's like Goku coming up against a strong opponent. I want nothing more than to understand why and see it through to the end.
It's so goddamn good.
Seriously? You can't name anything that you like about the series? Not even something simple like entertainment value, awesome fight scenes, nifty character designs or its sense of fun?thatdbzguy wrote:I don't know what I like about DBZ.
Kataphrut wrote:It's a bit of a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation to me...Basically, the boy shouldn't have cried wolf when the wolves just wanted to Go See Yamcha. If not, they might have gotten some help when the wolves came back to Make the Donuts.
Chuquita wrote:I liken Gokû Black to "guy can't stand his job, so instead of quitting and finding a job he likes, he instead sets fire not only to his workplace so he doesn't have to work there, but tries setting fire to every store in the franchise of that company".
TripleRach wrote:Others have touched on this already (including rereboy just above me now), but the biggest issue in this thread is that "objectively bad" and "objectively good" are oxymorons. "Good" and "bad" are inherently subjective words, as is judging entertainment at all. You can have a critical or popular consensus about something being good or bad. But in the end it's just a consensus of similar opinions, and can never be a cold hard fact.
As for whether Dragon Ball is good or bad, of course that's also going to be subjective. Personally, I love to analyze and nitpick the overall story and universe, and there are various things I'd consider flaws from beginning to end. But I could never call it a bad series. It's not deep and complex, but straightforward and simple aren't negatives in my book. I'm not ashamed to like Dragon Ball, and I don't feel I have to stop thinking to enjoy it.
Gokuu's simplicity is especially a driving force for my enjoyment of the series. This curious feral child grows into a father that saves the world, and eventually a bored grandfather concerned with the future. He makes all sorts of friends and becomes more worldly and knowledgeable without being corrupted by typical human vices. Yet at the same time he remains naive and childlike, and he's often insensitive and selfish. His heart is usually in the right place, but he's hardly a flawless paragon of virtue either. Even in my least favorite story arcs (namely Cell and Boo), where it feels like Toriyama ran out of ideas for Gokuu, I still can't hate him. His actions and dialogue just make me smile in spite of anything (at least in the manga). And I could go on forever about the intrigue of the rest of the cast. No one is terribly complicated or fleshed out (including Gokuu), and many of them fall out of the spotlight far too soon in favor of new characters. But despite the wondering and wanting more, I don't regret the times they were around, like a brief friendship or romantic fling or something.
I find the story itself overall enjoyable too. There are plotholes now and then, and literal deus ex machinas sometimes, but they rarely pull me out of the story when I'm actually reading or watching it. And yes, the story arcs tend to follow a similar basic structure each time. But each villain and setting has unique elements to it, and not every fight and situation plays out the exact same way. The struggle through each set of problems until the heroes ultimately find the solution, whether internal or divine in nature, is always compelling as I read/watch it play out (at least in the manga, again). I've seen power-ups before, and I've seen heroes make perfectly timed arrivals on the battlefield before, yet in practice it doesn't feel repetitive. I guess there's just something about Toriyama's execution of the story that keeps simple concepts and similar events entertaining for so long, which is certainly a good quality of writing.
Sure, I do enjoy serious adult dramas like Breaking Bad, or more complicated kids shows like Young Justice and the Avatar franchise. I probably would consider them better written series, but Dragon Ball is still an amazing story in its own way.
These two posts conveyed what I meant better than I ever could. It is okay to not like DBZ's story. That is your opinion. That is your subjective view on that portion of the series. Just know that nothing can be objectively good or bad. If someone did an objective review of DB, it would come out like this: http://www.destructoid.com/100-objectiv ... 9178.phtmlrereboy wrote:What do you mean by "objectively better"? As it has been said, everything regarding entertainment and art is entirely subjective. Just because a great amount of people might agree that something is better than another thing, that doesn't mean that you or I will agree with that opinion. In fact, you might say a certain series is "objectively better" than another, and I might honestly disagree entirely. How can that be if its objectively better? Because its subjective, not objective. The most you can get is a great amount of people agreeing that a series or certain elements are good or better, but that doesn't make it true for someone else with another opinion.thatdbzguy wrote:No, I mean that DB has an objectively better story than DBZ. I don't know what I like about DBZ.theawesomepossum777 wrote: So what you're saying is that you like DB for its story, yet you like DBZ better for everything else.
Something objective is something like saying that 2 + 2 = 4.
Why not?Fionordequester wrote:I am of the opinion that DBZ is one of the best anime shows I've ever seen, and is just as good as Yu Yu Hakusho, Rurouni Kenshin, and Death Note (though in a different way. And of course, I never even want to watch Death Note again despite liking it).
Kataphrut wrote:It's a bit of a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation to me...Basically, the boy shouldn't have cried wolf when the wolves just wanted to Go See Yamcha. If not, they might have gotten some help when the wolves came back to Make the Donuts.
Chuquita wrote:I liken Gokû Black to "guy can't stand his job, so instead of quitting and finding a job he likes, he instead sets fire not only to his workplace so he doesn't have to work there, but tries setting fire to every store in the franchise of that company".
I know I'm skipping over 7 pages, but this just has to be said if it hasn't already.thatdbzguy wrote:Show DBZ to anyone who has studied extensively in the study of quality literature, and they will laugh right in your face.
I tought dat when I beat dis monkee, I was goin to da Urf, but it caused me a trouble. WE ARE DA ONE WHO WILL CAUSE DA TROUBLE. But if I don't eat rice, da powah won't come. So DON'T SAY SUCH A SILLY TING! OHKAY? And let that child alone.Auric Goldfinger wrote:James Bond wrote:Do you expect me to talk?
No, Mr. Bond, I expect you to die!
Dude, do you know what DBZ does to you then? If an anime can provoke sentiments, then in my opinion it is great. If I laugh, feel sad, feel thrilled, all the things that make it interesting to live, then it is something great. Because what's the point of watching something if you don't feel anything? Living is feeling.thatdbzguy wrote:No, I mean that DB has an objectively better story than DBZ. I don't know what I like about DBZ.theawesomepossum777 wrote: So what you're saying is that you like DB for its story, yet you like DBZ better for everything else.
