Raditz/Nappa Battle Power

[RandomGuy96]

Another fun fact: Nappa never ever powered up. Vegeta told him to calm down, then Nappa says that he will. Any and all differences in performance is credited to his mental state and nothing else. He can't even change his battle power; so that was full power Nappa who, for example, couldn't see Goku's movements when he was still suppressed to 5,000.

[freezamite]

I don't see the problem with Raditz at 1500.
Vegeta's line about how Raditz was pitiful for losing to powers barely above 1000 at best has already been pointed out.
The disregard for the number seems to come from the suggestion, that Gohan at 1307 could badly damage a guy with a supposedly higher power than his. While it is simpler just to have Raditz' be weaker than 1307, nothing says it's impossible.

It's impossible because if Raditz at 1500 was badly injured by a hit at 1307, that means that a single casual blow by someone at 1500 would have been much, much more terrible, nearly killing him.

On the other hand, Vegeta's statement about how accurate was that power reading wouldn't make any sense if Raditz truly was at 1500, and the same for when Nappa compares Raditz with a Saibaman. 1200 to 1500 is much more difference than the one between Goku KKx2 and Vegeta, and yet not only Goku isn't able to deal damage to Vegeta at that point, but it immediately realises that he has to use KKx3 in order to have any chance of winning.

From that example I think it shows that not every part of one's body has the same power.

There are weak spots and vital parts on most of the characters, but Gohan's hit wasn't directed towards any of them.

in Raditz' case maybe it's something like this:

Raditz(total power): 1500
-Head: 100
-Each arm: 100
-Each leg: 200
-Torso: 800

So Gohan ended up damaging him that badly, because of the gap of power between that particular point of Raditz body and Gohan's attack, despite the fact that Raditz' total power is above that.

Ki level is not something that you distribute around your body parts. If you're 1500 you're 1500 everywhere. Then, at certain vital points/parts (and that's why they're vital points) the defences are much lower or in other words, the same attack has a much greater impact.
This is 100% inspired on reality. If you hit something in a vital point you will cause him much more damage than if you hit him on the leg or on a random spot.

Obviously Nappa did a lot better, when he calmed down, than when he started the fight, but it still didn't mean they were equals.

There could perhaps be a case of Goku holding back some of his power until he unleashed that Kamehameha.
Vegeta said, if Nappa calmed down he could handle the level Goku was currently at.
Nappa boasted about how he was going to show his true power now and Goku then said how he'd been waiting for that. Nappa said Goku was bluffing, but Vegeta thought Goku had power to spare and complete confidence in himself(not in the Strength Checker, maybe it should be).
After Nappa and Goku traded blows, Goku said Nappa had gotten serious. Nappa took it as a condescending remark, implying Goku was just playing around.
After Nappa's blast got deflected, Nappa couldn't believe how his greatest technique was merely bounced off and Vegeta found Goku's ability to deflect it at such a short distance unbelievable.

Goku was at 8000+ since the beginning of the fight against Nappa. It's obvious that when Nappa calmed down that he couldn't be only at 4000 because:
1. The fight has nothing to do with any other fight where a difference of power like that was shown.
2. Goku had to use KKx2 to catch Nappa before he could reach Krilin and Gohan. With a difference that big that would be completely out of place.

Another fun fact: Nappa never ever powered up. Vegeta told him to calm down, then Nappa says that he will. Any and all differences in performance is credited to his mental state and nothing else. He can't even change his battle power; so that was full power Nappa who, for example, couldn't see Goku's movements when he was still suppressed to 5,000.

Nope. Ki it's energy life and it's a concept that is related to one's mind state. In fact, all the power up from a basic SSJ to a FPSSJ is done MOSTLY through calming down and mastering one's ki instead of becoming stronger.

Nappa powers up calming himself because this is a way to power up. Or in other words, it's not that Nappa powered up, but that because of his mind-state he powered down even without realising, he couldn't fight at his full potential.

[Draken]

2. Goku had to use KKx2 to catch Nappa before he could reach Krilin and Gohan. With a difference that big that would be completely out of place

I hate it when people use that explanation. First off, ki has never been stated to correlate directly with speed. But even that aside, Nappa had a huge head start on Goku. Let's say Nappa was 50 meters away from Krillin and Gohan, traveling at 10 meters per second. Goku was 100 meters away from them, traveling at 20 meters per second. In 5 seconds both of them would reach Krillin/Gohan. However, that wouldn't be enough, as Nappa was about to launch a ranged attack and Goku has to reach Nappa BEFORE Nappa gets close enough. So he used KK to increase his speed to 40 meters a second and catch Nappa quickly.

[Darkprince410]

in Raditz' case maybe it's something like this:

Raditz(total power): 1500
-Head: 100
-Each arm: 100
-Each leg: 200
-Torso: 800

So Gohan ended up damaging him that badly, because of the gap of power between that particular point of Raditz body and Gohan's attack, despite the fact that Raditz' total power is above that.

Ki level is not something that you distribute around your body parts. If you're 1500 you're 1500 everywhere. Then, at certain vital points/parts (and that's why they're vital points) the defences are much lower or in other words, the same attack has a much greater impact.
This is 100% inspired on reality. If you hit something in a vital point you will cause him much more damage than if you hit him on the leg or on a random spot.

There's actually some precedence to this, given that when Raditz was first witnessing Piccolo charging up the Makankosappo, he specifically says

Chapter: 201 (DBZ 7), P7.2, P13.3
Context: said as Piccolo charges up the Makankosappo.
Raditz: “Th-this one's battle power is 1,020...30...!!! Un-unbelievable!!!! It's still rising!!!!
Raditz: “Battle power 1,330...!!!! He's gathered a-all of his battle power into his fingertips...!!!!”

That definitely does seem to imply that ki can be collected and transferred into a single point, and therefore isn't 1,330 all across his body.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

First off, ki has never been stated to correlate directly with speed.

Actually...

Chapter: 249 (DBZ 55), 7.4
Context: after Vegeta dodges Kui's attack
Kui: Wh…when did you…?!”
Vegeta: “When my battle power rises, it means that my speed raises too.”

[Rocketman]

There are weak spots and vital parts on most of the characters, but Gohan's hit wasn't directed towards any of them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commotio_cordis

[Draken]

First off, ki has never been stated to correlate directly with speed.

Actually...

Chapter: 249 (DBZ 55), 7.4
Context: after Vegeta dodges Kui's attack
Kui: Wh…when did you…?!”
Vegeta: “When my battle power rises, it means that my speed raises too.”

Not really. What about Burter being a speedster, or PC raising his speed without increasing his strength? Ki has never directly correlated with speed, except in Kaioken where it's specifically stated everything gets multiplied.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

First off, ki has never been stated to correlate directly with speed.

Actually...

Chapter: 249 (DBZ 55), 7.4
Context: after Vegeta dodges Kui's attack
Kui: Wh…when did you…?!”
Vegeta: “When my battle power rises, it means that my speed raises too.”

Not really. What about Burter being a speedster, or PC raising his speed without increasing his strength? Ki has never directly correlated with speed, except in Kaioken where it's specifically stated everything gets multiplied.

Vegeta says that the bigger battle power gets, the fastest you get as well. That doesn't mean that you can't train you speed exclusively (like Butta did).

[Draken]

Vegeta says that the bigger battle power gets, the fastest you get as well. That doesn't mean that you can't train you speed exclusively (like Butta did).

So it doesn't directly correlate with speed. If speed rises, ki doesn't always rise (Burter). If your ki rises by 100% doesn't mean your speed will rise by 100%.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Vegeta says that the bigger battle power gets, the fastest you get as well. That doesn't mean that you can't train you speed exclusively (like Butta did).

So it doesn't directly correlate with speed. If speed rises, ki doesn't always rise (Burter). If your ki rises by 100% doesn't mean your speed will rise by 100%.

No, if ki rises, speed rises as well. By if speed rises, ki doesn't always rise.

[Draken]

Vegeta says that the bigger battle power gets, the fastest you get as well. That doesn't mean that you can't train you speed exclusively (like Butta did).

So it doesn't directly correlate with speed. If speed rises, ki doesn't always rise (Burter). If your ki rises by 100% doesn't mean your speed will rise by 100%.

No, if ki rises, speed rises as well. By if speed rises, ki doesn't always rise.

Draken said: "if speed rises, ki doesn't always rise". Increasing your ki by 100% doesn't necessarily mean your speed will as well, or there'd be no point in pointing out KK precisely multiplies everything and not just ki.

[RandomGuy96]

if ki rises, speed rises as well.

So Grade III Trunks is faster than Grade II Trunks? Piccolo while firing an SBC is faster than Piccolo normally? Cell got faster when he shot up his ki to fight SS2 Gohan, despite saying he was already using his true speed before?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So Grade III Trunks is faster than Grade II Trunks?

That's different. SSG3 limits the combat speed because of the huge muscles. And ki attacks aren't the same as actual fighters.

[freezamite]

2. Goku had to use KKx2 to catch Nappa before he could reach Krilin and Gohan. With a difference that big that would be completely out of place

I hate it when people use that explanation. First off, ki has never been stated to correlate directly with speed. But even that aside, Nappa had a huge head start on Goku. Let's say Nappa was 50 meters away from Krillin and Gohan, traveling at 10 meters per second. Goku was 100 meters away from them, traveling at 20 meters per second. In 5 seconds both of them would reach Krillin/Gohan. However, that wouldn't be enough, as Nappa was about to launch a ranged attack and Goku has to reach Nappa BEFORE Nappa gets close enough. So he used KK to increase his speed to 40 meters a second and catch Nappa quickly.

Firstly, KK multiplied one's Ki in a balanced way, or in other words, it mulitplied the user's battle power which is the same as multiplying everything.
Secondly, this is DB. In DB differences much smaller in terms of power resulted in brutal differences impossible to overcome. The difference between Nappa and Goku wasn't as big as the one you say. This is not about common sense, but about what the manga tells us. Even if to you a 2x difference is not enough, in DB terms a 2x difference is absolutely decisive, and Goku would have made without KK what he did with it activated.

There's actually some precedence to this, given that when Raditz was first witnessing Piccolo charging up the Makankosappo, he specifically says

Chapter: 201 (DBZ 7), P7.2, P13.3
Context: said as Piccolo charges up the Makankosappo.
Raditz: “Th-this one's battle power is 1,020...30...!!! Un-unbelievable!!!! It's still rising!!!!
Raditz: “Battle power 1,330...!!!! He's gathered a-all of his battle power into his fingertips...!!!!”

That definitely does seem to imply that ki can be collected and transferred into a single point, and therefore isn't 1,330 all across his body.

Ki can be manipulated, and thus collected and transferred into a single point as you say. In fact, this is what a KameHame and nearly every single technique in DB does.
But Gohan had no ki manipulation abilities, in fact, he didn't even know how to fight at that point of the series. His number is not the reading of a technique but the reading of his strength. Its like when Goku is 430 at the beginning of the fight. That's the global reading and it's valid through the whole body.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commotio_cordis

Yeah, it's such a shame that:
1. The effects of the hit where NEVER attributed to it hitting a delicate spot unlike the eye attacks.
2. Gohan was a kid with 0 ability to fight and simply tackled Raditz. That's not a hit on a vital spot, it never was and it never will be.

Not really. What about Burter being a speedster, or PC raising his speed without increasing his strength? Ki has never directly correlated with speed, except in Kaioken where it's specifically stated everything gets multiplied.

BP and KI are different things. That being said, KK doubles the user's KI and also it's BP so it doubles it's speed. This doesn't mean than within a certain level of KI a character can be faster than another one or even a character that has been fighting at a lower level, to start to fight at his maximum speed.
But when Gohan goes from SSJ1 to SSJ2, it also surpasses PC's speed...

Vegeta says that the bigger battle power gets, the fastest you get as well. That doesn't mean that you can't train you speed exclusively (like Butta did).

So it doesn't directly correlate with speed. If speed rises, ki doesn't always rise (Burter). If your ki rises by 100% doesn't mean your speed will rise by 100%.

No, if ki rises, speed rises as well. By if speed rises, ki doesn't always rise.

Almost. Let's say that when the Ki rises in an equilibrated way, then the speed also rises. Speaking of the KK, this was the case. In fact, this was the case for almost nearly every single character and transformation seen on the series except for the ones that other posters pointed at you and that just as you answered were exceptions with their limitations perfectly explained on the manga.

[Darkprince410]

Yeah, it's such a shame that:
1. The effects of the hit where NEVER attributed to it hitting a delicate spot unlike the eye attacks.
2. Gohan was a kid with 0 ability to fight and simply tackled Raditz. That's not a hit on a vital spot, it never was and it never will be.

It was never attributed to not being due to hitting a vital spot either, and even though Gohan has no concept of vital areas and was in a blind rage when he launched his attack, he could still have very likely hit him in a vital area. I mean, if Gohan had, instead of striking him in the torso, hit him in his "dragonballs" instead, would you still say that where he hit Raditz was inconsequential because he has no ability to fight? Of course not!

[Rocketman]

2. Gohan was a kid with 0 ability to fight and simply tackled Raditz. That's not a hit on a vital spot, it never was and it never will be.

Kids with 0 ability to fight kill each other by hits to the center of the chest in the real world.

[Insertclevername]

I always assumed Raditz got hit in the solar plexis.

[freezamite]

It was never attributed to not being due to hitting a vital spot either, and even though Gohan has no concept of vital areas and was in a blind rage when he launched his attack, he could still have very likely hit him in a vital area. I mean, if Gohan had, instead of striking him in the torso, hit him in his "dragonballs" instead, would you still say that where he hit Raditz was inconsequential because he has no ability to fight? Of course not!

The basic problem I see here is the burden of proof, although in this case it's not that difficult to demonstrate that Gohan didn't hit any vital spot.
I mean, for one part, it's you who have to demonstrate that Gohan effectively hit a vital spot with some quotes of the manga. Yes, it's a way to explain how a 1500 Raditz received so much damage, but you have to back it with some manga facts.

As I said, in this case this "burden of proof" thing it's not that important because we have those quotes that clearly invalidate Gohan hitting a vital spot:

Chapter: 204 (DBZ 10), P12.1-2
Vegeta: “At any rate, the battle power of Kakarot’s son is unusually high, even by the standards of Saiyan children.”
Nappa: “Maybe his reading was wrong.”
Vegeta: “No, it wasn’t wrong. Raditz really took a large amount of damage from that brat’s attack. It seems that mixing Saiyan and Earthling blood begets a powerful hybrid.”

Vegeta green-lighted the scoutter reading based on how much damage Raditz took after the hit, so this implies that no "extra damage due to vital spot targeting" was involved there. He could know Raditz lost a lot of power because Raditz clearly said so, but nor Raditz nor anyone else ever mentioned Gohan being a lucky bastard so Vegeta couldn't factor that into de equation.
Had Gohan hit a vital spot of Raditz, the sentence should be "no, the kid has to be stronger in order to deal so much damage to Raditz" or something like "well, it may be, but he had to hit Raditz on a vital spot in order to deal him so much damage..."

It was never implied or said on the manga that Gohan hit Raditz's vital spot as far as I know, so it can't be assumed. The problem, as I say, is the burden of proof. Instead of adjusting the numbers to what's drawn on the manga what you do is to try to adjust what happens on the manga so the numbers of the Daizenshuu make any sense.

Kids with 0 ability to fight kill each other by hits to the center of the chest in the real world.

I'm not saying it's impossible for Gohan to have hit a vital spot if this was real life... the problem is that this is a manga, and there are some writing rules that the author can't skip. I mean, in real life we wouldn't know how much strength Raditz had, and it could be a plausible hypothesis that he had hit a vital spot, but in a manga or any well made literary you have to give the reader a fixed set of rules because the author wants to transmit a certain idea.
Things don't happen randomly on a manga, and even when luck can be introduced on a literary as a factor, it's always a "calculated" luck by the author.

What I mean with that is that Toriyama had the intention to demonstrate that Gohan's rage attacks increase its strength dramatically. Even when judging by the spot where Gohan hits there could be the possibility of randomly hitting a vital part, if Toriyama had wanted that factor to be accounted in there it would have written that a vital spot was hit on that attack in one way or another. He never did that, because there was never the intention of Gohan hitting a vital spot there, the intention was always to show the incredible increase in strength that Gohan can suffer once he madly enrages against someone.