"Explain why DBZ is bad."

[Insertclevername]

The only Deus Ex Machina that was legitamently BS to me by that definition was Kid Gohan. Somehow he can surpass everyone time and time again just by getting angry... and this hidden power nonsense was just ridiculous... Then ultimate Gohan being renouned as the strongest individual Z fighter preBoG was complete crap. He earned nothing he had and can't fight for beans. It was utterly pointless.

A Gohan fan being completely honest about him and his bullshit? I like that.

This is why I like Vegeta. (Reality gives him No Favours.)

And Gohan didn't? He's completely incompetent in the first two arcs save for his moments of rage, and most of the time he gets the ever loving shit kicked out of him immediately after those said moments of rage. I mean, if I wanted to write a masturbatory-esque fan fic, I wouldn't have this happen to me; which is even worse given the context of the scene.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

And Gohan didn't? He's completely incompetent in the first two arcs save for his moments of rage, and most of the time he gets the ever loving shit kicked out of him immediately after those said moments of rage. I mean, if I wanted to write a masturbatory-esque fan fic, I wouldn't have this happen to me; which is even worse given the context of the scene.

It was passable for him in the early Saiyan saga because it was just a hint of his potential but it didnt define anything other than just having strength above his age. He wasnt THAT much stronger than the adults when he used it, it was only just a tool for him to keep up. Everyone including Nappa was around the same margin of power then. All under 10.000.

The level this potential just skyrockets by the Freeza saga was where it turned into BS, because Freeza was already established to be leagues above everyone else, and even far above Piccolo and Vegeta who were unquestionably stronger than he ever was after training. Gohan never trained in that era yet he completely surpassed them all and with the same excuse.It doesnt work here. If so why couldn't he beat The ginyu force himself? Because he wasnt angry.. c'mon. Then him beating up 2nd, and then 4th form Freeza suggests that his power shot up from Guldo level to over 1.million? Vegeta feared Freeza's 1.million mark and yet Kid Gohan just magically tiers there? Its a bad plothole to me. Him Surpassing Vegeta let alone piccolo who've both had more fights than he has thus = more power ups from them are outclassed by a scrubby kid when he gets mad regardless? Put Kid Buu in that saga and somehow he'd surpass SSJ3 for a few seconds... oh wait... then we have BoG where Vegeta magically does the same thing..

If anything is wrong with DBZ, its these "Anger gives me strength" asspulls because it just screws everything up just established. It only worked when they needed to push themselves up to a cap to get SSJ because they were already at the cap limit, but just needed to push through it...(Future Trunks trying to go SSJ) but using it to surpass a cap while under a previous one is BS to me. Especially if the margins inbetween are light years away from each other like SSJ3 is for SSJ2 or Freeza is to everyone under SSJ.

Goku letting Vegeta go was stupid: No, even Vegeta say it on Boo's arc. Goku likes fight, he don't search kill the enemy, he just want have some fun. So I want fight again with this guy, I will train hard and try again, its simple.

Not quite. It was implied to be more personal. Goku let Vegeta go because he had a high respect for him and realizing he was Saiyan as well made him see a lineage-based rivalry in between them between clashing ethics. He also knew Vegeta saw it. He let Vegeta go because of how Vegeta previous taught him his origin and challenged him with the whole "Elite > Low-Class" reiterations he gave him.

Freeza ignoring Dende as he flew past him was stupid: Why will I kill someone needlessly (assuming I'm Freeza)?, I have the Dragon Ball's, I just want ask my wish and destroy this planet. So I leave him live a little more.

Freeza only kills people who get in his way really. Dende wasn't a threat to him until he found out he could heal people. Then he killed him right away. He also tried to kill him instantly when he was wishing everyone back to Earth.

Vegeta letting Cell reach his perfect form was stupid: Come on! its Vegeta, you think that he could live with himself thinking "Mmm, Perfect Cell would be stronger than me?", "I'm the strongest man in the world, so why I have to be worried?"?. If Cell was good, Goku would act exactly like Vegeta.

It was more like Vegeta wast still the concieted bastard he was since he debuted and wasnt trying to protect anyone really. He didnt care, he just wanted to prove his SSJ form was superior to Goku and 2nd Form Cell fed his own logic back to him. Granted it could have been done a little more conspiculously.

[RandomGuy96]

The level this potential just skyrockets by the Freeza saga was where it turned into BS, because Freeza was already established to be leagues above everyone else, and even far above Piccolo and Vegeta who were unquestionably stronger than he ever was after training. Gohan never trained in that era yet he completely surpassed them all and with the same excuse.It doesnt work here. If so why couldn't he beat The ginyu force himself? Because he wasnt angry.. c'mon. Then him beating up 2nd, and then 4th form Freeza suggests that his power shot up from Guldo level to over 1.million? Vegeta feared Freeza's 1.million mark and yet Kid Gohan just magically tiers there? Its a bad plothole to me. Him Surpassing Vegeta let alone piccolo who've both had more fights than he has thus = more power ups from them are outclassed by a scrubby kid when he gets mad regardless? Put Kid Buu in that saga and somehow he'd surpass SSJ3 for a few seconds... oh wait... then we have BoG where Vegeta magically does the same thing..

It was from a combination of Guru's power up (which Krillin also got) and zenkais (which Goku and Vegeta also got, and their's were WAY more bullshitty than Gohan's). He started at 14,000 right after the unlock, then roughly doubled by the time of the fight with Ginyu-Goku, then shot up massively from there to over 200,000 before fighting Freeza, then according to Vegeta it kept rising and was at a level that could at least help with 1st form Freeza by the time the fight started, then he got a zenkai during the battle with Freeza, allowing his power to shoot up to the million mark. Then he got mad, which is what let him put a scratch on third form Freeza, on top of his already significant power. He didn't simply get his ass kicked once or twice then suddenly become dozens of times stronger, like Goku and Vegeta did in that very same arc, or get several times stronger by essentially absorbing a strong fighter using a technique that was never known to the audience before, like Piccolo.

But Goku definitely has, hands down, the most bullshit power ups in the series. He's no match for the villain? No problem, just drink some magic water and now he's ready. Get beaten up once? He gets 33 times stronger. Get mad after getting beaten up? He becomes fifty times stronger than that.

Also, him punching final form Freeza was filler. In the manga, no one aside from Goku could lay a finger on him.

[Saiga]

And he never actually got to punch out final form Freeza outside of filler. Overall in that fight, his performance was worse than Piccolo's.

[Kid Buu]

Vegeta got plenty of bullshit. Mass-murderer who gets away with it, aids the villains in getting stronger and gets away with it, and doesn't have to work a single day in his life thanks to his wife. Chiaotzu and Yamcha are the ones that luck never threw a bone to.

[thatdbzguy]

The only Deus Ex Machina that was legitamently BS to me by that definition was Kid Gohan. Somehow he can surpass everyone time and time again just by getting angry... and this hidden power nonsense was just ridiculous... Then ultimate Gohan being renouned as the strongest individual Z fighter preBoG was complete crap. He earned nothing he had and can't fight for beans. It was utterly pointless.

A Gohan fan being completely honest about him and his bullshit? I like that.

This is why I like Vegeta. (Reality gives him No Favours.)

This is why I despise Kid Gohan. (DBZ was his own Fanfic)

He is the reason "why DBZ is bad".

That entire Gohan vs Final Form Freeza fight was filler.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

He didn't simply get his ass kicked once or twice then suddenly become dozens of times stronger, like Goku and Vegeta did in that very same arc, or get several times stronger by essentially absorbing a strong fighter using a technique that was never known to the audience before, like Piccolo.

Sure thats true, but the way Gohan gets it, is potrayed in a very farfetched way. I can believe Goku and Vegeta`s because they actually trained before hand. Vegeta also got his ass kicked throught the saga so his zenkais at least added up but only to keep up with Freeza. Goku is iffy because his Zenkai was huge but then again he trained under gravity + kaioken + His wounds were deeper than Vegeta`s. (Assuming that makes a difference in how much of a Zenkai you get), but still, the gaps were never as big as Gohan`s.

And he never actually got to punch out final form Freeza outside of filler. Overall in that fight, his performance was worse than Piccolo's.

Also, In the manga, no one aside from Goku could lay a finger on him.

If its filler okay but the concept still applies a bit. Though them leaving that in Kai is what threw me off.

Vegeta got plenty of bullshit. Mass-murderer who gets away with it, aids the villains in getting stronger and gets away with it, and doesn't have to work a single day in his life thanks to his wife. Chiaotzu and Yamcha are the ones that luck never threw a bone to.

He broke the laws of being a hero, not the laws of the universe.

But Goku definitely has, hands down, the most bullshit power ups in the series. He's no match for the villain? No problem, just drink some magic water and now he's ready. Get beaten up once? He gets 33 times stronger. Get mad after getting beaten up? He becomes fifty times stronger than that.

Ehhhh... we`ll hes Goku though... the story was already set up like that from Dragonball. He has the protagonist-Boost. Its like when Yugi always gets the right card at his 100Lp cap.

[thatdbzguy]

Numerous people have posted massive walls of texts explaining their views on the issues brought up in the original post, but you just ignore everything and make posts that are only a sentence long. And this was after you complained that nobody that addressed them, thinking it was proof that DBZ is bad or something. I'd like to join this conversation, but I can't take you seriously at all.

The majority of the posts have amounted to simply "Yeah, those are issues, but DBZ is still the awesomezzz!" People get on me about not explaining things, when ironically enough, nobody is giving me any good reasons as to why DBZ is good.

[Ninja Murasaki]

Numerous people have posted massive walls of texts explaining their views on the issues brought up in the original post, but you just ignore everything and make posts that are only a sentence long. And this was after you complained that nobody that addressed them, thinking it was proof that DBZ is bad or something. I'd like to join this conversation, but I can't take you seriously at all.

The majority of the posts have amounted to simply "Yeah, those are issues, but DBZ is still the awesomezzz!" People get on me about not explaining things, when ironically enough, nobody is giving me any good reasons as to why DBZ is good.

Because its fun despite all its large flaws that haven't aged well compared to modern anime.

[RandomGuy96]

Sure thats true, but the way Gohan gets it, is potrayed in a very farfetched way. I can believe Goku and Vegeta`s because they actually trained before hand. Vegeta also got his ass kicked throught the saga so his zenkais at least added up but only to keep up with Freeza. Goku is iffy because his Zenkai was huge but then again he trained under gravity + kaioken + His wounds were deeper than Vegeta`s. (Assuming that makes a difference in how much of a Zenkai you get), but still, the gaps were never as big as Gohan`s.

The amount of training they do beforehand should have absolutely nothing to do with their near-death boosts. They just randomly got dozens of times stronger from single boosts- despite NEVER receiving such large boosts before- to keep with Freeza. Gohan didn't even get those.

What's wrong with the gaps? Gohan got two near death boosts + unlocked potential + anger boost, and it couldn't even get him to half the power of base Goku, who just got one near death healing boost.

Krillin: 1,800 --> 13,000 --> 26,000 --> 75,000 --> ?

Gohan: 1,500 --> 14,000 --> 28,000 --> 200,000 --> ? --> >1,000,000

Vegeta: 18,000 --> 24,000 --> 30,000 --> 250,000 --> ? --> ~2,000,000

Goku: 8,000 --> 90,000 --> 3,000,000

[ABED]

But Goku definitely has, hands down, the most bullshit power ups in the series. He's no match for the villain? No problem, just drink some magic water and now he's ready. Get beaten up once? He gets 33 times stronger. Get mad after getting beaten up? He becomes fifty times stronger than that.

Let's not do the damn math, the math doesn't make sense. However, Goku earned his power ups. That magic water was torturous for several hours, and Goku trained insanely hard before he got to Namek. The rage that turned him into a Super Saiyan was well earned. His friends and allies were being picked off one by one, his son was threatened, and that entire arc had established the idea of Super Saiyan. It all made sense. Gohan just had bottomless dormant power, seemingly. No matter how many times he was supposed to have had his power taken to his limits, he supposedly didn't reach the depth of his limits.

The majority of the posts have amounted to simply "Yeah, those are issues, but DBZ is still the awesomezzz!" People get on me about not explaining things, when ironically enough, nobody is giving me any good reasons as to why DBZ is good.

I think the Freeza arc does a good job of building up Freeza's presence and evilness. The Vegeta arc had a lot of great material such as Piccolo protecting his only friend which was ironically the son of his greatest enemy. The fight with Vegeta is also excellent and makes good use of all the characters, even Yajirobe.

You don't have to go far in this forum to find plenty of posts where people say what they like about the series. You haven't given a single one.

[thatdbzguy]

Numerous people have posted massive walls of texts explaining their views on the issues brought up in the original post, but you just ignore everything and make posts that are only a sentence long. And this was after you complained that nobody that addressed them, thinking it was proof that DBZ is bad or something. I'd like to join this conversation, but I can't take you seriously at all.

The majority of the posts have amounted to simply "Yeah, those are issues, but DBZ is still the awesomezzz!" People get on me about not explaining things, when ironically enough, nobody is giving me any good reasons as to why DBZ is good.

Because its fun despite all its large flaws that haven't aged well compared to modern anime.

Fun =/= Quality

[ABED]

Fun =/= Quality

What are you looking for with this thread? Are you trying to convince people that it's a bad show or do you want us to give you reasons why you should think it's good?

[thatdbzguy]

Fun =/= Quality

What are you looking for with this thread? Are you trying to convince people that it's a bad show or do you want us to give you reasons why you should think it's good?

Both.

[Insertclevername]

Ehhhh... we`ll hes Goku though... the story was already set up like that from Dragonball. He has the protagonist-Boost. Its like when Yugi always gets the right card at his 100Lp cap.

I don't know if I can really get behind that. Why should other characters be criticized for their power ups but not Gokuu? Even if he is the protagonist, he still inhabits the same laws of nature everyone else does and should therefor be under the same level of scrutiny.

Fun =/= Quality

If the series is trying to just entertain instead of enlighten, then yes, fun would equal quality.

Fun =/= Quality

What are you looking for with this thread? Are you trying to convince people that it's a bad show or do you want us to give you reasons why you should think it's good?

Both.

Well, you're not doing a very good job at the former since you are cherry picking who to respond to; completely ignoring a lot of the points various other members (including myself) have made in the previous pages.

[Kid Buu]

Well I made a thread a while back on why I like DBZ, so you can see my reasoning there.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Numerous people have posted massive walls of texts explaining their views on the issues brought up in the original post, but you just ignore everything and make posts that are only a sentence long. And this was after you complained that nobody that addressed them, thinking it was proof that DBZ is bad or something. I'd like to join this conversation, but I can't take you seriously at all.

The majority of the posts have amounted to simply "Yeah, those are issues, but DBZ is still the awesomezzz!" People get on me about not explaining things, when ironically enough, nobody is giving me any good reasons as to why DBZ is good.

You`re trying to insist that DBZ is absolutely unenjoyable because of it`s flaws. It isn`t. DBZ is fun to watch because it isnt a master piece, its just for action junkies. Most of DBZ`s flaws are just technicallities, not plot pit-stops. If they were to just halt the story itself like SAO`s sudden forceful romance angle THEN it would be rudely disturbing... or if DBZ was trying to be a pseudo-psychological show like Naruto is that requires analysis then we`d have a problem... but nothing in DBZ`s flaws really stops you from watching the show as it is and how it presents itself. It isnt awesomezzz but fun for kids... and it started the direction of the shonen genre. Thats why people love it. Its the original and flawed by its aging. I`d assume its just the nostalgia fantards that see it as flawless and they are the issue as I see it. Akira himself doesnt even like his work that much.

[RandomGuy96]

Let's not do the damn math, the math doesn't make sense.

It makes perfect sense, actually.

However, Goku earned his power ups. That magic water was torturous for several hours

So is that more or less worse than Gohan having to watch everyone he knows get murdered for 24 hours while not being able to do anything about it?

And being tortuous for several hours really does not compare to all the training all the side characters did for years, including the immortal old master, and they STILL all ended up much weaker than Goku simply because he was the only one super speshul enough to get his dormant power drawn out by the magic water.

and Goku trained insanely hard before he got to Namek

He trained for one week. How does that justify him suddenly spiking in power, when he had not gotten such absurd gains at any other time in the series? It's pretty much just here where he gets over ten times stronger in one week. Vegeta, who could kick his ass without kaio-ken back on Earth, now doesn't even possess a third of Goku's strength thanks to his bullshit week in the gravity chamber.

The rage that turned him into a Super Saiyan was well earned.

How do you "earn" rage? He just got mad and suddenly became fifty times stronger, strong enough to beat the villain who was easily kicking his ass five minutes ago.

His friends and allies were being picked off one by one, his son was threatened, and that entire arc had established the idea of Super Saiyan

Gohan witnessed all of is friends being tortured and murdered, as well as his father being beaten to near death by his uncle and then killed by the devil back in the saiyan arc. He didn't earn a rage boost?

It all made sense

It really didn't. Goku just randomly gets more from the same power-ups than anyone else (e.g. his zenkai was absurdly stronger than anyone else's for no reason, he easily masters kaio-ken x20 when the god who invented it + Piccolo couldn't even master x2) because he's ostensibly the protagonist. Gohan never got fifty times stronger just from getting angry once.

Gohan just had bottomless dormant power, seemingly. No matter how many times he was supposed to have had his power taken to his limits, he supposedly didn't reach the depth of his limits.

He never got his power drawn out to the limit. He just got some of it unlocked, in much the same way Goku did. Also, logically his dormant power would grow proportionally with his regular power as he trained (which he does in the saiyan arc, android arc, and Cell Saga). The only one you could argue was meant to be final was the Ultimate power up from the god of gods that made him several times stronger than Goku- and that was more of a transformation rather than a straight unlock in the vein of Guru's power up or the god water. In other words, more like randomly becoming a Super Saiyan than randomly getting a x33 zenkai.

[ABED]

Ehhhh... we`ll hes Goku though... the story was already set up like that from Dragonball. He has the protagonist-Boost. Its like when Yugi always gets the right card at his 100Lp cap.

I don't know if I can really get behind that. Why should other characters be criticized for their power ups but not Gokuu? Even if he is the protagonist, he still inhabits the same laws of nature everyone else does and should therefor be under the same level of scrutiny.

Fun =/= Quality

If the series is trying to just entertain instead of enlighten, then yes, fun would equal quality.

Yes, Goku is subject to the same level of scrutiny but the difference is Goku is proactive and goal oriented. He trains incredibly hard. I give a character like that far more credit than one who has stuff just happen to them often for narrative expediency.

No the math doesn't make sense. If being a few power level points apart makes all the difference, being several thousand times stronger should mean the one with the bigger number has no trouble with the weaker opponent.

Mr. Magic water as you call him trains harder than just about anyone in the show. About the only one who arguably trains harder is Vegeta.

[Black_Anime_Fan]

The majority of the posts have amounted to simply "Yeah, those are issues, but DBZ is still the awesomezzz!" People get on me about not explaining things, when ironically enough, nobody is giving me any good reasons as to why DBZ is good.

Don't you have a question to answer?

Mindless fun is fun, but not actual good literature.

Read the rest of my previous post.
And again, by who's standards are we judging whether or not it's good or bad literature? If it doesn't measure up to your standards, that's fine. That doesn't make something "objectively bad."

Plenty of people on this thread have already made counterarguments against you, now why don't you stop ignoring them and stop paying attention to those quote on quote "DBZ is still the awesomezzz!" comments.