Why were 17 and 18 evil in Trunks' timeline?

[Rocketman]

I don't buy the "they just got bored" excuse, I mean 17 contributed energy to the genki dama to defeat Buu and before that lived as a law-abiding citizen apparently and 18 became a Z senshi, can you see any of the other Z-senshi (even Piccolo, who used to be evil) deciding to randomly kill everyone just because they got bored and there was no one around to stop them?

Vegeta.

[90sDBZ]

They got bored (no goal), had no moral guidance (16) and were unopposed in terms of power (everything else in the Cell Arc).

In the main timeline, shortly after 17 and 18 are released, the heroes catch up to them in terms of power. By the end of the arc, just a few days later, their power is basically like an ant to Gohan, Vegeta and Trunks. If they got out of line, they could be killed. The ones in Trunks' timeline didn't have that fear. They were released and didn't have a true goal with Gokū dead. I imagine that similar to the main models, they would have started by having fun and, without 16 there to ground them back into humanity, things grow exponentially from there as they eventually needed bigger and more exciting "games" to satisfy them. Fighting with the Z Warriors probably exacerbated the situation, as that would be the most fun they could have at the time and all their actions afterward tried to recapture that feeling.

It has nothing to do with boredom. Someone doesn't just go from being a decent person to being a pure evil psychopath because they're bored. They were literally different Androids. And powerlevels had nothing to do with it either. The future 17 and 18 were strong enough to one-shot most of the Z Fighters and took delight in mercilessly hunting them all down and killing them in cold blood. The main timeline 17 and 18 were also strong enough to do that but they let them live and even gave friendly advice to Krillin to give them senzu beans. And the main timeline 17 and 18 believed in fair play while the future 17 and 18 would always gang up on opponents. At no point did the main timeline 17 and 18 show any signs of being as evil as their future counterparts. I even wonder sometimes if they actually would have killed Goku after managing to defeat him. Okay sure 16 wanted him dead but 17 just saw it as a game. I bet he only cared about the challenge of fighting Goku and wouldn't have bothered killing him in the end.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I don't buy the "they just got bored" excuse, I mean 17 contributed energy to the genki dama to defeat Buu and before that lived as a law-abiding citizen apparently and 18 became a Z senshi, can you see any of the other Z-senshi (even Piccolo, who used to be evil) deciding to randomly kill everyone just because they got bored and there was no one around to stop them?

Vegeta.

Was the strongest person on Earth after the end of the Namek saga until the arrival of Mecha Frieza and King Cold and didn't kill anyone during that time.

[Rocketman]

Was the strongest person on Earth after the end of the Namek saga until the arrival of Mecha Freeza and King Cold and didn't kill anyone during that time.

Where do you think all the animal-people went?

[Kamiccolo9]

Was the strongest person on Earth after the end of the Namek saga until the arrival of Mecha Freeza and King Cold and didn't kill anyone during that time.

Where do you think all the animal-people went?

Does that mean the King managed to fight Vegeta off? Because I'd pay to see that.

[rereboy]

It has nothing to do with boredom. Someone doesn't just go from being a decent person

Decent person? You mean taking what they want, doing what they want, robbing what they want, destroying what they want, and barely stopping before committing actual random murder like they were shown doing after they left the lab? Gee, what decent guys indeed...

Not to mention that they were searching for Goku in order to kill him, even though they didn't actually have to, since they had free will, they could even decide to turn on their creator, like they did... #17 even mentions that basically they were going to kill Goku because it would fulfill a sense of purpose. Such a nice guy, deciding to commit murder because it seems like some sort of purpose in his life... Now imagine that same guy with no sense of purpose... Is it really that hard to picture Future #17 when you imagine that?

[Jackal puFF]

They were also weaker right? Why was that?

[dbgtFO]

They were also weaker right? Why was that?

Unfortunately never elaborated upon.
Like people have suggested in the other thread, they could just have been holding back though I don't agree with that.

[Jackal puFF]

They were also weaker right? Why was that?

Unfortunately never elaborated upon.
Like people have suggested in the other thread, they could just have been holding back though I don't agree with that.

That's really strange.. The nice ones wouldn't hold back but the evil ones would? Yeah... Aha..

[rereboy]

They were also weaker right? Why was that?

Unfortunately never elaborated upon.
Like people have suggested in the other thread, they could just have been holding back though I don't agree with that.

That's really strange.. The nice ones wouldn't hold back but the evil ones would? Yeah... Aha..

If they didn't hold back, the fight would be much too short to entertain them and eventually they would kill Gohan and Trunks too quickly and then they wouldn't have anybody else to entertain them... By holding back they manage to keep Gohan and Trunks as a frequent "play buddy" for years.

And #17 actually states to Future Gohan that he had been holding much back before he kills him in the manga, so its confirmed that they did hold back regarding Gohan at least. Perhaps they didn't regarding Trunks, but they did regarding Gohan.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I don't see how they couldn't have held-back against Trunks, honestly. If #17 was most likely enough to take Gohan down alone, Trunks (not much different from Gohan) would've gotten erased with ease fighting both of them going all-out. They didn't take him seriously.

[90sDBZ]

It has nothing to do with boredom. Someone doesn't just go from being a decent person

Decent person? You mean taking what they want, doing what they want, robbing what they want, destroying what they want, and barely stopping before committing actual random murder like they were shown doing after they left the lab? Gee, what decent guys indeed...

Not to mention that they were searching for Goku in order to kill him, even though they didn't actually have to, since they had free will, they could even decide to turn on their creator, like they did... #17 even mentions that basically they were going to kill Goku because it would fulfill a sense of purpose. Such a nice guy, deciding to commit murder because it seems like some sort of purpose in his life... Now imagine that same guy with no sense of purpose... Is it really that hard to picture Future #17 when you imagine that?

Compared to their future counterparts and other DBZ villains they were pretty damn decent. And I don't remember them actually killing anyone except for maybe in filler. Can you specify when? And if you want to call them evil for destroying random stuff then you could also call Goku evil for throwing Fat Buu through a building that may have been full of people. Or you could call the Z Fighters evil for destroying parts of the countryside during training. Okay they were planning on killing Goku but so was 16 and he proved to be heroic later on as did 18 in the Buu saga. The future 18 would never try and help humans regardless of circumstance. Hell future 18 KILLED Krillin. That says it all.

Future 17 and 18 even stated that seeing humans angers them. Even Kami noticed that main timeline 17 and 18 weren't nearly as bad as Trunks had predicted. I'm not sure what was said in the manga exactly but in Kai right before Trunks kills the Androids he says that their past counterparts weren't so bad. If Trunks says that then it must be true.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Trunks had absolutely zero interactions with the cyborgs when they were first released in his timeline. He has no clue what they were like back then, and everyone else in the main timeline based their perceptions of the twins off what Trunks had told them...which is only reliable in regards to his experience with them. The anime chose to make the pair of delinquents-turned-cyborgs from Trunks' timeline evil right off the bat, but if you only follow the information Toriyama gave us about them in Cell Arc and Trunks The Story, that doesn't have to be the only interpretation. The 17 and 18 in Trunks' timeline could have been just as "nice" at first, but growing bored and having that much power? Well, power can easily corrupt a person, and it's especially common in fiction.

[rereboy]

Compared to their future counterparts and other DBZ villains they were pretty damn decent. And I don't remember them actually killing anyone except for maybe in filler. Can you specify when? And if you want to call them evil for destroying random stuff then you could also call Goku evil for throwing Fat Buu through a building that may have been full of people. Or you could call the Z Fighters evil for destroying parts of the countryside during training. Okay they were planning on killing Goku but so was 16 and he proved to be heroic later on as did 18 in the Buu saga. The future 18 would never try and help humans regardless of circumstance. Hell future 18 KILLED Krillin. That says it all.

Future 17 and 18 even stated that seeing humans angers them. Even Kami noticed that main timeline 17 and 18 weren't nearly as bad as Trunks had predicted. I'm not sure what was said in the manga exactly but in Kai right before Trunks kills the Androids he says that their past counterparts weren't so bad. If Trunks says that then it must be true.

I said that they did everything (destroy, rob, do what they want) but stopped at actually randomly killing people in the present.

Nonetheless, they were searching for Goku in order to kill him, not because they actually had to, but because it seemed like a good idea, a purpose for them to follow, and they also almost killed every one of the gang. Oh, yes, they almost certainly did. They left them all badly injured, except Krillin because Krillin hadn't attacked. They even mentioned to Krillin that he should tend to them before they started to die from their injuries.

Now imagine if Krillin had also attacked... They would all be dead, or most of them. There would be nobody to give them senzu beans and I doubt that the androids would tend to their injuries (except maybe #16).

Oh, and a driver died due to Vegeta's and #18's fight, blown up by a ki blast in the manga. None of them even mentioned him, flinched or showed any sign that it mattered at all.

Very decent persons indeed...

The whole argument was that the Future androids are just like the present ones but with Goku already dead, no one to oppose them, and no purpose or objectives. Given what I stated about the present androids, it doesn't seem at all a stretch to think that they would evolve into Future #17 and #18 in the same circumstances.

[Polyphase Avatron]

It has nothing to do with boredom. Someone doesn't just go from being a decent person

Decent person? You mean taking what they want, doing what they want, robbing what they want, destroying what they want, and barely stopping before committing actual random murder like they were shown doing after they left the lab? Gee, what decent guys indeed...

Not to mention that they were searching for Goku in order to kill him, even though they didn't actually have to, since they had free will, they could even decide to turn on their creator, like they did... #17 even mentions that basically they were going to kill Goku because it would fulfill a sense of purpose. Such a nice guy, deciding to commit murder because it seems like some sort of purpose in his life... Now imagine that same guy with no sense of purpose... Is it really that hard to picture Future #17 when you imagine that?

Compared to their future counterparts and other DBZ villains they were pretty damn decent. And I don't remember them actually killing anyone except for maybe in filler. Can you specify when? And if you want to call them evil for destroying random stuff then you could also call Goku evil for throwing Fat Buu through a building that may have been full of people. Or you could call the Z Fighters evil for destroying parts of the countryside during training. Okay they were planning on killing Goku but so was 16 and he proved to be heroic later on as did 18 in the Buu saga. The future 18 would never try and help humans regardless of circumstance. Hell future 18 KILLED Krillin. That says it all.

Future 17 and 18 even stated that seeing humans angers them. Even Kami noticed that main timeline 17 and 18 weren't nearly as bad as Trunks had predicted. I'm not sure what was said in the manga exactly but in Kai right before Trunks kills the Androids he says that their past counterparts weren't so bad. If Trunks says that then it must be true.

Not to mention that Cell pulled the whole "eviler than thou" thing on them and they were disgusted at how evil he was, even though he hadn't killed nearly as many people as their future selves did.

[Duo]

I always liked the theory of 17 and 18's evil being a result of Goku's actions in Future Trunks' timeline. More specifically, while Goku killed Freeza and King Cold immediately, he spared the henchmen and let them go. The henchmen then wrought havoc on several cities and pre-cyborg 17 and 18 saw their parents get murdered in front of them by one of the henchmen. The Z-fighters clean up the rogue henchmen sometime later but by then the damage is done, and 17 and 18 are abducted by Gero, as per course. I forgot if this idea was stated in a guidebook or interview or if its' purely fan invention, but I like it. It seems like something Goku would do and it's a solid explanation as to why 17 and 18 would be so detached and uncaring from the rest of humanity, because they lost all that mattered to them.

I like this too, but I can't confirm a source to save my life!

[rereboy]

Because its pure speculation.

[90sDBZ]

I said that they did everything (destroy, rob, do what they want) but stopped at actually randomly killing people in the present.

Nonetheless, they were searching for Goku in order to kill him, not because they actually had to, but because it seemed like a good idea, a purpose for them to follow, and they also almost killed every one of the gang. Oh, yes, they almost certainly did. They left them all badly injured, except Krillin because Krillin hadn't attacked. They even mentioned to Krillin that he should tend to them before they started to die from their injuries.

Now imagine if Krillin had also attacked... They would all be dead, or most of them. There would be nobody to give them senzu beans and I doubt that the androids would tend to their injuries (except maybe #16).

Oh, and a driver died due to Vegeta's and #18's fight, blown up by a ki blast in the manga. None of them even mentioned him, flinched or showed any sign that it mattered at all.

Very decent persons indeed...

The whole argument was that the Future androids are just like the present ones but with Goku already dead, no one to oppose them, and no purpose or objectives. Given what I stated about the present androids, it doesn't seem at all a stretch to think that they would evolve into Future #17 and #18 in the same circumstances.

Nonetheless they still allowed all those humans they encountered to live. Even the ones that opposed them and the ones they robbed. The future Androids wanted every human dead. The present time Androids never once express a desire to kill humans. They even made it clear they had no interest in fighting or killing cowards by letting Krillin go unharmed twice due to his clear inferiority and reluctance to fight. The future Androids took pleasure in killing those weaker than themselves. Also present 17 insisted on continuing to fight Piccolo 1-on-1 even though he could have been a threat to him while the Future Androids would gang up on an opponent at the first sign of a threat(Gohan) or even a lack of a threat(the human Z fighters). The present Androids actually had honour.

[Sshadow5001]

Perhaps the years of having all that power and no-one who can stop them turned them a little strange/unstable.

[ABED]

I always liked the theory of 17 and 18's evil being a result of Goku's actions in Future Trunks' timeline. More specifically, while Goku killed Freeza and King Cold immediately, he spared the henchmen and let them go. The henchmen then wrought havoc on several cities and pre-cyborg 17 and 18 saw their parents get murdered in front of them by one of the henchmen. The Z-fighters clean up the rogue henchmen sometime later but by then the damage is done, and 17 and 18 are abducted by Gero, as per course. I forgot if this idea was stated in a guidebook or interview or if its' purely fan invention, but I like it. It seems like something Goku would do and it's a solid explanation as to why 17 and 18 would be so detached and uncaring from the rest of humanity, because they lost all that mattered to them.

I like this too, but I can't confirm a source to save my life!

That still doesn't explain why they are evil. It says why they hate Goku but not why they want to kill everyone. It's pseudo-psychology.

I don't think there needs to be any "explanation" beyond some people are just evil.