"Explain why DBZ is bad."

[TripleRach]

Villains can still help heroes too; like Vegeta in the Namek arc!

Heroes can also still help villain too; like Vegeta in the Cell arc!

If that was in reply to me, I'm not really denying that Oozaru Gokuu was a villain. I just ended up rambling about the unintentional good things he did during his rampage too.

But my issue was mainly with the idea that Pilaf had already been stopped by Oolong, because while that did save the world, it didn't really "stop" Pilaf at all because of the prison situation.

There's a reason why most people who've seen both prefer DB over DBZ.

You keep saying this, but from personal experience DBZ seems to be more popular by far, even among people who've read the entire manga or watched the entire anime. Not just in the US with FUNimation's out-of-order releases, but it gets the most attention in Japan too, and it seems to be the same for the rest of the world. Sure, there are some outspoken people who prefer the DB era (including myself), but no way is that a majority opinion.

Even if that were true, does popularity automatically mean good? I seem to remember arguments about Justin Bieber earlier in the thread that insisted the opposite.

[thatdbzguy]

I thought you were talking about the manga and not DBZ in this topic . Why the need to talk about parts of the same thing instead of the whole thing? DB is just one story, one manga.

Also, once again, its all subjective. A person may think that the DBZ part has positives that outweigh its negatives, and that even outweigh the positives of DB, making it their favorite part of DB.

I said earlier that I'm going to refer to the second portion of the manga as DBZ because that's shorter to type than "second half of the manga".

[thatdbzguy]

Villains can still help heroes too; like Vegeta in the Namek arc!

Heroes can also still help villain too; like Vegeta in the Cell arc!

If that was in reply to me, I'm not really denying that Oozaru Gokuu was a villain. I just ended up rambling about the unintentional good things he did during his rampage too.

But my issue was mainly with the idea that Pilaf had already been stopped by Oolong, because while that did save the world, it didn't really "stop" Pilaf at all because of the prison situation.

There's a reason why most people who've seen both prefer DB over DBZ.

You keep saying this, but from personal experience DBZ seems to be more popular by far, even among people who've read the entire manga or watched the entire anime. Not just in the US with FUNimation's out-of-order releases, but it gets the most attention in Japan too, and it seems to be the same for the rest of the world. Sure, there are some outspoken people who prefer the DB era (including myself), but no way is that a majority opinion.

Even if that were true, does popularity automatically mean good? I seem to remember arguments about Justin Bieber earlier in the thread that insisted the opposite.

DBZ is more known, but that doesn't mean it's mostly preferred to DB. In MY experience, practically everybody who's watched both DB and DBZ (or read the manga) prefer the DB portion.

[Zephyr]

None of the reasons you listed are objective qualities, like character depth, story complexity, etc.

None of the reasons you listed are reasons that make a story objectively bad either.

So plot holes, inconsistencies, and plots with hardly any depth are good?

Those are objective qualities for imperfection, not being "bad". Again, you're missing a premise that says exactly what amount of negative qualities and imperfections make something go from "imperfect" to "bad", and if/when you do add that premise, it will be a subjective premise entirely, as there is no objective formula for how imperfect something must be in order to be overall "bad".

I said earlier that I'm going to refer to the second portion of the manga as DBZ because that's shorter to type than "second half of the manga".

That's a pointlessly contrived way of analyzing a work of fiction. Making an arbitrary split in the story, where there really is none, and treating the two arbitrarily split halves as two separate entities that warrant separate analysis is as far from "objective analysis of a complete story" as you can get.

Hell, the Saiyan - Buu arcs aren't even half of the story arcs. That's less than half of the story. You're comparing 4 arcs to 6 arcs. If you wanted to cut the story in half, objectively, going by story arc, you would end the first half after the Piccolo Daimao arc and start the second half at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai arc. You can't really treat the start of an isolated body of literature worthy of analysis being in the middle of a story that's yet to be finished getting told. Why on earth would you start reading Green Eggs and Ham, or One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, at the half way mark, and try to pass off your critique of what you just read as an objective analysis of a complete story?

Or if you wanted to go, objectively by chapter number, and make an even split so that there are the same number of chapters in each half (since that, objectively, mathematically, would be taking the first half and second half of the manga), you would be splitting the 519 chapters into two halves. So the second half of the manga, as you seem keen on analyzing, would begin half way through chapter 259, which is smack dab in the middle of the Namek arc. You can't really treat the start of an isolated body of literature worthy of analysis as being in the middle of a chapter, in the middle of a story arc. That's a 100% arbitrary and subjective point to begin your analysis.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

DBZ is more known, but that doesn't mean it's mostly preferred to DB. In MY experience, practically everybody who's watched both DB and DBZ (or read the manga) prefer the DB portion.

I can agree with this statement somewhere. A lot of people who prefer DBZ have never seen DB or ignored it because it was subtle and more complex than DBZ was.. but in any hypathetical survey I can bet people only prefer DBZ because of Tonami nostalgia and SSJ2 Gohan. Solely.

Its a shame though. I have to respect GT's initial concept trying to merge the best of both series together... on paper thats a great idea, but in execution it wasn't planned out right.

[Kamiccolo9]

DBZ is more known, but that doesn't mean it's mostly preferred to DB. In MY experience, practically everybody who's watched both DB and DBZ (or read the manga) prefer the DB portion.

I can agree with this statement somewhere. A lot of people who prefer DBZ have never seen DB or ignored it because it was subtle and more complex than DBZ was.. but in any hypathetical survey I can bet people only prefer DBZ because of Tonami nostalgia and SSJ2 Gohan. Solely.

Its a shame though. I have to respect GT's initial concept trying to merge the best of both series together... on paper thats a great idea, but in execution it wasn't planned out right.

You'd lose that bet. I prefer DBZ because I thought the majority of DB up until the Piccolo Daimao Arc was boring. I prefer the direction that it took at that point, when more action and a darker storyline was introduced. I also consider the Buu Arc to be one of the two high points of the series (the other being the 23rd Budokai.)

[Insertclevername]

DBZ is more known, but that doesn't mean it's mostly preferred to DB. In MY experience, practically everybody who's watched both DB and DBZ (or read the manga) prefer the DB portion.

I can agree with this statement somewhere. A lot of people who prefer DBZ have never seen DB or ignored it because it was subtle and more complex than DBZ was..

I'm not sure how in any way the first six arcs of Dragon Ball were more complex than the last four.

[thatdbzguy]

DBZ is more known, but that doesn't mean it's mostly preferred to DB. In MY experience, practically everybody who's watched both DB and DBZ (or read the manga) prefer the DB portion.

I can agree with this statement somewhere. A lot of people who prefer DBZ have never seen DB or ignored it because it was subtle and more complex than DBZ was.. but in any hypathetical survey I can bet people only prefer DBZ because of Tonami nostalgia and SSJ2 Gohan. Solely.

Its a shame though. I have to respect GT's initial concept trying to merge the best of both series together... on paper thats a great idea, but in execution it wasn't planned out right.

>Dragon Ball
>Complex

Pick one.

[manuelc]

I think that you are looking at DBZ too "black and white." You can't say it is completely bad, or completely 100% good. It, like any series, has both good and bad. Even some of the "flaws" you mentioned are not flaws in my opinion.

Making everyone who isn't a Saiyan useless Character balance does not necessarily make a series good. I find the saiyans more interesting than namekians and earthlings.

Characters range from being one-dimensional to two-dimensional There are deep characters (off the top of my head, Vegeta Gohan and Freeza.)

A repetitive, overly simplistic story A simple story is not a flaw.

Also, first post on here even though I've been a member since 2011

[VegettoEX]

You know what, thatdbzguy? Enough is enough.

At this point you've resorted to 4chan speak. You've done little to seriously engage with any in-depth response given to you. It's clear that you're not the least bit interested in the conversation you actually started, and instead just want to hear your own viewpoints parroted back at you. When they're not regurgitated right back, you just fall into a self-loathing-fandom schtick.

Any further dismissive posts will result in a formal strike against your account. Multiple strikes can and will result in a temporary and/or permanent ban on your account, which removes access to the entirety of the Kanzenshuu website (the whole actual website, the forum, the podcast, etc.).

You've signed up and registered on Kanzenshuu. We expect you to engage with and converse with your fellow fans in a certain way. If you're not willing to do that, as is clear from the responses you're getting, we're not really willing to engage back in that conversation with you at all.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

You'd lose that bet. I prefer DBZ because I thought the majority of DB up until the Piccolo Daimao Arc was boring. I prefer the direction that it took at that point, when more action and a darker storyline was introduced. I also consider the Buu Arc to be one of the two high points of the series (the other being the 23rd Budokai.)

So do I, but I was referring to most of the fanbase whos only heard of DBZ through Tonami and stuck with it from Tonami. Most people I ask about their impression on the franchise give me such reasoning, they hated DB and thought SSJ2 Teen Gohan was badass, nothing more. Most people off this site has that general opinion on the franchise. If you don't fall into that group then it must be because your familiarity extends from more than just the Tonami/remastered dub.

[WittyUsername]

DBZ is more known, but that doesn't mean it's mostly preferred to DB. In MY experience, practically everybody who's watched both DB and DBZ (or read the manga) prefer the DB portion.

I can agree with this statement somewhere. A lot of people who prefer DBZ have never seen DB or ignored it because it was subtle and more complex than DBZ was..

I'm not sure how in any way the first six arcs of Dragon Ball were more complex than the last four.

Personally, I don't think it's necessarily more complex but I do think it's more enjoyable and less contrived than the 'Z' portion of the series.

[Kid Buu]

I dont really understand the characters becoming useless one. Yamcha, Krillin, and Tenshinhan were basically inferior to Goku from their debut arcs and were only really there for the tournaments. It makes sense that their role decreased once the plot moved beyond tournaments. Piccolo, Gohan, & Vegeta are omnipresent through all of Z and I actually enjoy their Buu arc incarnations a lot.

[thatdbzguy]

I dont really understand the characters becoming useless one. Yamcha, Krillin, and Tenshinhan were basically inferior to Goku from their debut arcs and were only really there for the tournaments. It makes sense that their role decreased once the plot moved beyond tournaments. Piccolo, Gohan, & Vegeta are omnipresent through all of Z and I actually enjoy their Buu arc incarnations a lot.

People often confuse less screen-time with uselessness.

[baneofdemon22]

I dont really understand the characters becoming useless one. Yamcha, Krillin, and Tenshinhan were basically inferior to Goku from their debut arcs and were only really there for the tournaments. It makes sense that their role decreased once the plot moved beyond tournaments. Piccolo, Gohan, & Vegeta are omnipresent through all of Z and I actually enjoy their Buu arc incarnations a lot.

I agree with you! I really like them as all Dragon Ball characters, but it seemed natural for them to go in a different direction.

[SaiyanZ]

A story isn't bad if its simplistic. Disney films have simplistic stories yet they are some of the best films ever. Repetition isn't terrible either, One Piece follows a basic formula for its arcs too: Straw Hats go to island, island has oppressed people, Straw Hats save oppressed and become friends, Straw Hats leave (outside of Marineford this is true). One Piece is known for having one of the best stories in manga of all-time, so your point is moot.

Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Kami and Majin Buu are examples of characters that aren't 1-D and/or 2-D.

Not useless, just unable to win fights

Depends on what you consider a plot hole or inconsistency.

Don't know what you mean. The Z-Fighters dying against Nappa was not due to stupidity; Buu absorbing people wasn't due to it either. Most of it was because of a character's arrogance and/or obliviousness.

The RoSaT isn't a deus ex machina since Goku had used it before as a child, in an entirely new place at Kami's. Fusion isn't one either since it didn't come out of nowhere and was taught to him by the Metamorese. Neither was SSJ3 since he trained to get it, which made a nice plot twist when it did appear. I fail to see how believability is killed in the Buu saga of all things

Naruto, Hunter x Hunter and YuYu Hakusho are series which have means of revival after death, so I guess death means nothing in those series as well right? Not a very strong argument.

[DonZ]

Cause it's not.

[VegettoEX]

Cause it's not.

You need to add more context than this.

Who are you responding to? What else do you have to say? Why?

[Mystic Buu]

I dont really understand the characters becoming useless one. Yamcha, Krillin, and Tenshinhan were basically inferior to Goku from their debut arcs and were only really there for the tournaments. It makes sense that their role decreased once the plot moved beyond tournaments. Piccolo, Gohan, & Vegeta are omnipresent through all of Z and I actually enjoy their Buu arc incarnations a lot.

Their strength can't be compared to Saiyans and other overpowered creatures.I hate that.

[MysticVegeta]

I, myself, hold Dragon Ball above Z, because the characters were much more interesting.

However, I like to cheat by reading the Manga, so Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z are the same thing

I agree that the Humans shouldn't of taken a back seat. Tenshinhan seemed really powerful during Dragon Ball, as did Yamcha, but the rest of your "Explanation" I don't agree with, not at all.