Does anybody actually think that DBZ got better post-Namek?

[thatdbzguy]

Not following intelligent opinions of intelligent people is moronic.

An argument could be made against that too. I for one would rather be a dumb original than, say, a genius sheep.

I don't think being original is dumb.

Just being dumb is being dumb.

[petronka101]

I like the Buu saga for some of the reasons people have already stated. Aditionally, and I know I’m in a small minority here, but I like Babidi as a villain. It was a refreshing concept to the DBZ world where villains are mainly based on physical strength. I also liked the idea of mind control over those who had evil in their hearts. It was a neat concept that I felt could've been explored a little more. I didn't like Babidi's desing though, it was annoying as heck.

On a side note, I’m new to this forum and I don’t want to sound rude. However I can’t help but notice your posts @thatdbzguy in all these threads. You’re starting to sound like a Wikipedia example of a so called “concern” troll. A friend of my mine used to do this on Naruto forums, proclaiming to be a Naruto fan while trying to make real Naruto fans admit or say that the series was dumb or just horrible and then he would laugh about it or try to post the replies on troll communities with silly titles like "Narutards", etc. It gets old very quickly. Sorry if that’s not the case but it’s the way you’re coming across. Anyways, I don’t want to get into a fight with anyone, so this will be my first and only postt about this.

[Godo]

Not following intelligent opinions of intelligent people is moronic.

Opinions are made by independent deductions based on facts, your personal interpretation and your personal standing on different subjects.
If you are a follower of an opinion, just because of that it is made by an intelligent person, it isn't your opinion, really.
If you are a follower of an opinion that just happens to belong to an intelligent person, but only because of that it fits with your logic and interpretation, then that wouldn't be moronic.

I like the Buu saga for some of the reasons people have already stated. Aditionally, and I know I’m in a small minority here, but I like Babidi as a villain. It was a refreshing concept to the DBZ world where villains are mainly based on physical strength. I also liked the idea of mind control over those who had evil in their hearts. It was a neat concept that I felt could've been explored a little more. I didn't like Babidi's desing though, it was annoying as heck.

I too liked this idea a lot, with Babidi being able to defend himself via his minions. Also the enslavement of people's minds was a cool thing. They could have made it like in the Baby arc, where at one point, Goku would have to fight most of his friends (as in fighting Piccolo, no. 18 and Vegeta at the same time, ignoring the power difference established, because I don't care much about that).

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Not following intelligent opinions of intelligent people is moronic.

By following you mean acknowledging? If, so I do acknowledge but don't give a rat's ass what other people think. I'll enjoy what I want.

[baneofdemon22]

I like the Buu saga for some of the reasons people have already stated. Aditionally, and I know I’m in a small minority here, but I like Babidi as a villain. It was a refreshing concept to the DBZ world where villains are mainly based on physical strength. I also liked the idea of mind control over those who had evil in their hearts. It was a neat concept that I felt could've been explored a little more. I didn't like Babidi's desing though, it was annoying as heck.

You are not alone! I love it too! Dabura doesn't seem to get much love either, but I really like his character and enjoyed the humor in relation to him being a demon.

[baneofdemon22]

Godo, I love your recollection of each saga! It just boils the Dragon Ball sagas to absolute pure joy!

[Fizzer]

ThatDBZGuy, intelligent people (however you define intelligence) don't necessarily have better believes than anyone else. If they did, there'd be some kind of clear correlation between intelligence and particular political beliefs, and particular religious beliefs, or whatever, but there is no such thing. Furthermore, an opinion cannot possibly be right or wrong.

Ask yourself: Why do you do things like watching DBZ? Why is it that you watch any films or TV shows, or play any video games, or whatever it is that you do with your time? What drives you to do it, and also what is the intended purpose of those things?

Now, excuse me if this comes off as rude, I say this with the very best intentions, but have you ever received any kind of psychiatric therapy? I have, and it most certainly contributed to the fact that I'm still alive. It's helpful stuff. I only say this because something about your mental state seems to be causing you a lot of unnecessary anxiety in frankly abnormal amounts. Whether it's self-worth issues, a phobia or being wrong or something else, it doesn't have to be like this. Don't you think you'd be happier if you could just do the things you enjoyed without feeling like other people are judging you or getting yourself worked up about who's "right" about cartoons? I'm not telling you have a mental condition or anything, I wouldn't know (and if you did, it wouldn't be anything "wrong" with you any more than having the flu is). If you've never seen anyone about these issues, it might be a good idea to just have one single session with someone, and if they say "This is completely normal, nothing to worry about here", you haven't real lost anything. Just a thought.

Sorry for the off-topic post.

[thatdbzguy]

ThatDBZGuy, intelligent people (however you define intelligence) don't necessarily have better believes than anyone else. If they did, there'd be some kind of clear correlation between intelligence and particular political beliefs, and particular religious beliefs, or whatever, but there is no such thing. Furthermore, an opinion cannot possibly be right or wrong.

Ask yourself: Why do you do things like watching DBZ? Why is it that you watch any films or TV shows, or play any video games, or whatever it is that you do with your time? What drives you to do it, and also what is the intended purpose of those things?

Now, excuse me if this comes off as rude, I say this with the very best intentions, but have you ever received any kind of psychiatric therapy? I have, and it most certainly contributed to the fact that I'm still alive. It's helpful stuff. I only say this because something about your mental state seems to be causing you a lot of unnecessary anxiety in frankly abnormal amounts. Whether it's self-worth issues, a phobia or being wrong or something else, it doesn't have to be like this. Don't you think you'd be happier if you could just do the things you enjoyed without feeling like other people are judging you or getting yourself worked up about who's "right" about cartoons? I'm not telling you have a mental condition or anything, I wouldn't know (and if you did, it wouldn't be anything "wrong" with you any more than having the flu is). If you've never seen anyone about these issues, it might be a good idea to just have one single session with someone, and if they say "This is completely normal, nothing to worry about here", you haven't real lost anything. Just a thought.

Sorry for the off-topic post.

Back when I was younger, I received some therapy, although it wasn't anything really notable. I was mainly there just so they could see if a medicine I was taking had any positive/negative effects on me.

Anyway, there's no way in hell I'm signing up for therapy just because I let the opinions of others involving a children's cartoon bother me. There's other people that a therapist could help who actually have real issues.

[Fizzer]

Back when I was younger, I received some therapy, although it wasn't anything really notable. I was mainly there just so they could see if a medicine I was taking had any positive/negative effects on me.

Anyway, there's no way in hell I'm signing up for therapy just because I let the opinions of others involving a children's cartoon bother me. There's other people that a therapist could help who actually have real issues.

Okay, I just thought it seemed like something deeper than that, like this was just one facet of it. If this relates to DBZ and DBZ only then, okay, I misinterpreted the situation.

[90sDBZ]

I definitely think the Frieza saga was DBZ at its peak. Although I still love the Cell and Buu sagas. And not just for nostalgia. I'm actually one of the few who thinks the Buu saga was an improvement over the Cell saga and even the Saiyan saga.

[thatdbzguy]

Back when I was younger, I received some therapy, although it wasn't anything really notable. I was mainly there just so they could see if a medicine I was taking had any positive/negative effects on me.

Anyway, there's no way in hell I'm signing up for therapy just because I let the opinions of others involving a children's cartoon bother me. There's other people that a therapist could help who actually have real issues.

Okay, I just thought it seemed like something deeper than that, like this was just one facet of it. If this relates to DBZ and DBZ only then, okay, I misinterpreted the situation.

To be honest, I have a problem accepting the negative opinions of anything I'm passionate about, not just DBZ.

[Fizzer]

Back when I was younger, I received some therapy, although it wasn't anything really notable. I was mainly there just so they could see if a medicine I was taking had any positive/negative effects on me.

Anyway, there's no way in hell I'm signing up for therapy just because I let the opinions of others involving a children's cartoon bother me. There's other people that a therapist could help who actually have real issues.

Okay, I just thought it seemed like something deeper than that, like this was just one facet of it. If this relates to DBZ and DBZ only then, okay, I misinterpreted the situation.

To be honest, I have a problem accepting the negative opinions of anything I'm passionate about, not just DBZ.

Yeah, so that could be big deal. If it bothers you and affects your self-esteem then it's not a small problem. I guess it's just down to how much this affects your life, but if it does have some significant impact on your happiness then it's definitely a problem worth trying to solve.

[Metalwario64]

To be honest, I have a problem accepting the negative opinions of anything I'm passionate about, not just DBZ.

Dude, just ask yourself this question: why does it matter at all what other people think?

Seriously, just think for yourself. You've already admitted this is a problem with you, so really, just do it.

[roscaifed]

As a series I don't think it got better post-Namek. But Gohans story arc, especially his fight with Cell, was the best part of the Z era imo.

[thatdbzguy]

Yeah, so that could be big deal. If it bothers you and affects your self-esteem then it's not a small problem. I guess it's just down to how much this affects your life, but if it does have some significant impact on your happiness then it's definitely a problem worth trying to solve.

I'm sure it'll get better with age.

[sangofe]

Yeah, the best saga was the Boo saga, namely the fusion sagas.

[DBZ Mick]

Anime-wise, yes, I do think it did- well the Boo arc anyway. With all the filler which helped the story, some of the most beautiful animation in the series...

Manga wise- perhaps not but I still think it had it's moments.

[TheAldella]

I don't believe the manga improved at all, but the Dragon Ball Z anime got much better. Less filler was annoying and they actually extended some of the fights.

[Duo]

One of the big weaknesses of the Freeza arc takes place in the second half (after Goku lands) where the plot starts super-charging everybody's power level left and right into absolutely absurdity. Vegeta getting a near-death power up that takes him from 24,000 to over 30,000? Sure. One that takes him from over 30,000 to competing with first stage Freeza at 530,000? Goku going from 90,000ish to 3 million? Was this really necessary escalation or just careless BIG NUMBERS N' STUFF?

The Artificial Human / Cell arc also cuts its own tail off, but in a very different way. Cell's completion turns the character from a horror movie premise into a gentler version of Piccolo Daimao. This works in relationship to Gohan coming of age, but it runs counter to what the story had been building up. Also, Gohan spends most of the arc in the background and suddenly we're expected to buy into him emotionally. Rule of cool seriously makes up for a lot of missing ground on this one.

The Majin Buu arc trips itself up when Gohan's buildup into the savior of the universe flops to the wayside and leads into convoluted nonsense. This ties the Cell arc and Majin Buu arc together nicely in totally mishandling the character of Gohan. This indicates a bit of writing weakness on the part of Akira Toriyama. Fortunately, Goku / Vegeta are amazing and I don't mind (SPOILERS AHEAD) Battle of Gods bringing the focus onto them if it makes a better story.

Most of these problems of character focus and needless escalation did not exist much prior to the start of the Namek arc. I think the best we see in all of Dragon Ball is volumes 3 thru 20 of the tankobon (Goku training with Muten-Roshi thru the end of the Saiyan arc). The major DBZ arcs are guilty as heck of copying the Piccolo Daimao arc, to boot.

[Fizzer]

One of the big weaknesses of the Freeza arc takes place in the second half (after Goku lands) where the plot starts super-charging everybody's power level left and right into absolutely absurdity. Vegeta getting a near-death power up that takes him from 24,000 to over 30,000? Sure. One that takes him from over 30,000 to competing with first stage Freeza at 530,000? Goku going from 90,000ish to 3 million? Was this really necessary escalation or just careless BIG NUMBERS N' STUFF?

This is one of my biggest problems with the arc. Just make Freeza less ridiculously powerful, basically, and it fixes the rest. Freeza's first form could be something comparable to the Ginyu Force, and the "over one million" line could just be scrapped. If, say, Goku get's a Zenkai from 90,000 to 100,000, that puts him at 2,000,000, which means that Freeza's maximum power would only have to be something like 5,000,000 for 50% Freeza to be beating Goku. Goku's 9,000 to 90,000 makes more sense because it's six days worth of constant zenkais, but after that the numbers were completely unnecessary.