Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
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rereboy
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by rereboy » Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:30 am
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:You mean that Goku & Piccolo transformed against Raditz? What?
Goku and Piccolo collaborated with each other against Raditz just like Goku and Vegeta collaborated with each other agaisnt Buu. The only difference is how they collaborated.
In both cases there is a team up, a joining of forces by two characters agaisnt an opponent.
Vegetto is the result of that collaboration between Goku and Vegeta, not a form of Goku like SSJ Goku or Kaioken Goku.
How do you not understand this? Its obvious...
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:35 am
Kaio-ken is not a form, it's just a red aura.
Vegetto isn't just a result of collaboration between Goku & Vegeta. Goku & Vegeta merged & transformed into a new being. Even the manga states that the result of Fusion is a transformation. I don't understand why we argue about this when the manga itself states that it's a transformation. You are saying that if Vegetto, a collaboration between Goku & Vegeta, is a transformation, the Goku & Piccolo transformed against Raditz, and I can't understand how you connect these two things.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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rereboy
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by rereboy » Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:43 am
You keep saying that its a transformation... So? Its a transformation that requires the collaboration of the two characters via the fusion technique! its the result of their collaboration! Goku can't turn into Vegetto/Gogeta on his own, he can't achieve that result without the collaboration of Vegeta! Therefore its not really a form of Goku! Its a form, a transformation, a result, a being, of two individual characters collaborating together. A team up. End of story.
By the way, forms aren't exclusively transformations. Kaioken is a form, just like Roshi's 100% Kamehameha is a form. Its a state that the character can achieve visibly different and with different characteristics than his normal state. Therefore a different form of the character.
Last edited by
rereboy on Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:47 am
That's what I've been saying all the time. Of course he needs Vegeta and the technique or the earrings to turn into Gogeta or Vegetto, but this doesn't stop it from being a transformation. Like Cell needs #17 & #18 to transform, or like Boo needs others like Gohan or Gotenks to transform, or like Goku needs 6 righteous Saiyans to transform into Super Saiyan God, etc.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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rereboy
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by rereboy » Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:54 am
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:That's what I've been saying all the time. Of course he needs Vegeta and the technique or the earrings to turn into Gogeta or Vegetto, but this doesn't stop it from being a transformation. Like Cell needs #17 & #18 to transform, or like Boo needs others like Gohan or Gotenks to transform, or like Goku needs 6 righteous Saiyans to transform into Super Saiyan God, etc.
And I'm not saying that its not a transformation, I'm saying that it doesn't make sense to call it a form of Goku. That was the whole point.
Cell's, Buu's and SSJG cases are different cases because, even though their transformation requires outside help, they are, in principle, permanent transformations, not a form that can be achieved by the character like SSJ for example. And even in these cases you wouldn't say that Perfect Cell is a form of Imperfect Cell. No, you would say that Imperfect Cell can turn into Perfect Cell if he absorbs the androids, transforming himself into basically a new character.
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rereboy on Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:58 am
rereboy wrote:I'm saying that it doesn't make sense to call it a form of Goku.
Well, I disagree.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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rereboy
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by rereboy » Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:01 pm
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:rereboy wrote:I'm saying that it doesn't make sense to call it a form of Goku.
Well, I disagree.
Well, I don't know what to tell you. You were already given numerous examples of why that doesn't make sense.
It makes sense to consider a state that a character can achieve on his own (via transformation or technique) as a form, like SSJ or Freeza's different forms.
But a transformation that involves the assimilation of several characters into one to create another (Cell and Buu) or a collaboration of several characters to create a brand new character (Vegetto, Gotenks), shouldn't really be consider a form of just one of the characters involved. It doesn't make much sense.
But even still it would make more sense to consider those cases as forms if we really wanted to than Vegetto as a form of Goku because in those cases clearly one of the characters involved has the upper hand in the transformation (Cell and Buu). With Vegetto, its 50-50, there's no upper hand, no way to distinguish between the characters involved, he is as much Goku as he is Vegeta.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:18 pm
A form is the result of a transformation. Since Goku/Vegeta transforms into Vegetto, Vegetto is a form of Goku/Vegeta. The means that he needs to transform are irrelevant. Any Saiyan always needs a tail & Bruits Waves to transform into an Oozaru, so by your logic, Oozaru in not a form.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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rereboy
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by rereboy » Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:40 pm
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:A form is the result of a transformation.
No, a form is a significant variation of one character. The problem with Vegetto is that its not one single character at all. Its two characters mixed into one brand new character thanks to their collaboration.
Like I said, at least Buu and Cell are still mostly Buu and mostly Cell even after transforming. Vegetto is not even mostly Goku.
Last edited by
rereboy on Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:42 pm
So, Boo has only one form?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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rereboy
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by rereboy » Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:44 pm
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:So, Boo has only one form?
Each single Buu is a different entity, a different character. Even the personality of each Buu is different. Buu doesn't have forms like Freeza does, he just changes into different characters.
But, like I said, he is still mostly Buu in every single one. Vegetto is not even mostly Goku.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:47 pm
I disagree. The means to transform, and the personality change, are irrelevant things IMO. If Goku transforms into Vegetto, then Vegetto is both a different person and a form of both Goku & Vegeta.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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rereboy
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by rereboy » Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:53 pm
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I disagree. The means to transform, and the personality change, are irrelevant things IMO. If Goku transforms into Vegetto, then Vegetto is both a different person and a form of both Goku & Vegeta.
I won't argue with you when you say that Vegetto can be considered a form of Goku AND Vegeta together, because then I would just be arguing the term "form" and nothing really relevant besides the use of the term.
I just disagree with you calling Vegetto a form of Goku. Vegetto is no form, transformation or variation of any single character. Considering him a form of Goku just leads to misconceptions like saying that X character is stronger than any form of Goku so that must include Vegetto.
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TenshiGokuu
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by TenshiGokuu » Sat Jan 11, 2014 2:34 pm
Vegito is the strongest character in anime
.
Hellspawn28 wrote:Super Buu's whole universal dimension rip thing was a filler. Vegito lacks good feats to view him as his own character, so he's not even closet to being the strongest anime character. He's not even the strongest DB character since we know that Beerus and Uisu could beat him.
Actually it was said in the manga that
Buu can destroy a universe with that power
.
Vegito then must be above universal level to actually fight
Buu. but hey like
every
one(?) says
, Dragon
Ball is
inconsistent with powers
. He would easily top even
Beerus, who
's a galaxy buster
, and ssj god
Goku.
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rereboy
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by rereboy » Sat Jan 11, 2014 2:37 pm
Buu can destroy the universe just like Freeza could. One planet at a time. That's not what a universe buster is. A Universe buster can destroy the universe in one attack.
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TenshiGokuu
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by TenshiGokuu » Sat Jan 11, 2014 2:40 pm
rereboy wrote:Buu can destroy the universe just like Freeza could. One planet at a time. That's not what a universe buster is. A Universe buster can destroy the universe in one attack.
Are you saying that ripping universes isnt a busting feat? He would have easily destroyed a universe if
Vegito didn
't send his ass through the time barrier.
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rereboy
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by rereboy » Sat Jan 11, 2014 3:16 pm
TenshiGokuu wrote:
are you saying that ripping universes isnt a busting feat? he would have easily destroyed a universe if veggito didnt didnt send his ass through the time barrier.
That's called
filler. It didn't happen in the manga.
And its illogical filler too. If Gohan-Buu can scream and end the universe, then if Vegetto talked loudly the universe would implode given how much stronger Vegetto was compared to Gohan-Buu.
Conclusion? Ignore the filler scene.
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Kamiccolo9
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by Kamiccolo9 » Sat Jan 11, 2014 3:22 pm
rereboy wrote:TenshiGokuu wrote:
are you saying that ripping universes isnt a busting feat? he would have easily destroyed a universe if veggito didnt didnt send his ass through the time barrier.
That's called
filler. It didn't happen in the manga.
And its illogical filler too. If Gohan-Buu can scream and end the universe, then if Vegetto talked loudly the universe would implode given how much stronger Vegetto was compared to Gohan-Buu.
Conclusion? Ignore the filler scene.
Even if you count the filler, it's really not all that impressive in the grand scheme of things when determining "the strongest anime character." Plenty of people who have already been mentioned could do much worse than what Buu did with barely a thought. Dragon Ball characters, when compared to the
real anime heavyweights, just aren't that big a deal.
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TenshiGokuu
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by TenshiGokuu » Sat Jan 11, 2014 4:42 pm
rereboy wrote:TenshiGokuu wrote:
are you saying that ripping universes isnt a busting feat? he would have easily destroyed a universe if veggito didnt didnt send his ass through the time barrier.
That's called
filler. It didn't happen in the manga.
And its illogical filler too. If Gohan-Buu can scream and end the universe, then if Vegetto talked loudly the universe would implode given how much stronger Vegetto was compared to Gohan-Buu.
Conclusion? Ignore the filler scene.
Well
I think fillers exist everywhere,
and there is nothing really bad about them
.
<Off-topic random images removed by moderator>
THEY EXIST AND THEY ARE CANON AND YOU CANT DENY THEM
.
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Rocketman
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by Rocketman » Sat Jan 11, 2014 6:35 pm
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Goku & Vegeta perform a combined transformation through Fusion or Potara. This isn't my interpretation, this is stated in the manga.
And it's not the same as calling Cell a form of Freeza. Cell has Freeza's, etc cells, he was born with them, and there isn't any way to separate from them. Same for Gohan. Goku & Vegeta transformed into Gogeta & Vegetto, with the first being temporary, and the second being not necessarily permanent. Vegetto & Gogeta don't just have the cells of Goku & Vegeta, they are Goku & Vegeta themselves.
So is Perfect Cell a form of #18?
