Is Vegetto the Strongest of Any Anime Characters?

[Hellspawn28]

Vegito is the strongest character in anime.

Super Buu's whole universal dimension rip thing was a filler. Vegito lacks good feats to view him as his own character, so he's not even closet to being the strongest anime character. He's not even the strongest DB character since we know that Beerus and Uisu could beat him.

Actually it was said in the manga that Buu can destroy a universe with that power.

Spoiler:

Vegito then must be above universal level to actually fight Buu. but hey like everyone(?) says, Dragon Ball is inconsistent with powers. He would easily top even Beerus, who's a galaxy buster, and ssj god Goku.

Elder Kaioshin means that every planet will be gone because no one will be around to stop Buu. Beerus is a solar system buster, not a galaxy buster. The galaxy buster line was only in the trailer and not shown in the film.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I've never seen anyone destroy a solar system though except in non-canon movies and filler...

Either way you could point out that even if someone in DBU could destroy the universe it only has 4 galaxies so series like Saint Seiya and TTGL would still be stronger.

[Toriyama-sama]

I'll just bring up my other post on this subject...

I have always said that the strength of DBZ characters is commendable in the arena of fiction because:

1) They are comparatively "normal" and contained within a humanoid body
2) They are mortal
3) They exist solely in the physical plane (afterlife notwithstanding)
4) Their power is self-generated and relies on common ideas of stamina
5) They use physical force and do not rely on "magic"

Follow these stipulations, and you're going to have a hell of a time finding a character that can put up a fight against SSJ4 Goku.

You know, I agree with this and actually it's been my stance on the matter for a long time. There's really no point in making direct comparisons between characters from distinct fictional universes, especially when their governing laws are so different from each other and from the real laws of Physics, and this is something I would like to address in the following.


Besides, it seems to me the abilities many of these nearly omnipotent beings rely on merely translate in terms of defying real scientific phenomena, or better yet, the common sense notions people have of them. The thing is, if we go by common sense (which, like every scientist finds out soon after starting his technical education, in general couldn't be farther from the truth) any comparison immediately and invariably becomes faulty and invalid, whilst if we go by actual science... nothing really will make sense either.

Black hole busting? How exactly does that make a character powerful by itself (by Dragon Ball standards of course)? And what does that even mean in the first place? Surely these can't be real "black holes", because according to our present understanding of the issue, they do not just explode or something. Whether or not they can be "destroyed" is still an open question, but even if the answer is yes, the intuitive interpretation of that word isn't accurate in the least.

And surviving the Big Bang? Again, what does that even mean? It's not like the concept of Big Bang translates to some colossal explosion of unimaginable proportions, or whatever it may be that the common sense assumes, so how does that make a character powerful (or durable)? It just makes them "magically" able to remain unaffected by space-time and its mass-energy content, as if they're some kind of ghosts.


So, basically, Goku gets exponentially stronger througout Dragon Ball. An idea of what his power might be in the end, even though we don't really get much information about ki measuring scales, can be ascertained through his early displays of strength and his subsequent on-screen interactions with other fighters (e.g. A is 2x stronger than B, then B trains and becomes 2x stronger than A, which means he now is 4x stronger than initially; repeat ad infinitum; remember the exponential grows FAST). Then we bring in some random entity from some random fictional universe who can manipulate space-time and matter, is the size of the Earth and has survived a Big Crunch and a Big Bang. But hey, perhaps some weak deity who can become incorporeal at will can survive a BC/BB; plus, in Dragon Ball bigger doesn't equate to stronger, and we've seen people manipulating matter, time-traveling, stopping time and teleporting from one place to another. Sure, these abilities are very useful and can make all the difference in battle, but don't make someone strong by themselves.

So, who would win in the end? Well, it would depend on a multitude of factors, of course. Power, abilities, experience, the universe in which the battle is fought and, last but not the least, the author's intention.

[rereboy]

Dragon Ball has no sense of real scientific accuracy in the fighters' abilities. Everything they do is completely impossible according to science.

So, its pointless to criticize other franchises' abilities on those grounds just because they seem even more impossible to you. There's no "even more impossible". One thing is possible or its not. And if everything they do in Dragon Ball is impossible, why are you even criticizing the other franchises on those grounds?

[Toriyama-sama]

I am not criticizing other franchises. I am simply saying that a black hole, and the Big Bang, and other exotic phenomena, are not what you think they are, in such a way that it makes no sense to say that "character X is a black hole buster, therefore character X is a lot stronger than Vegetto" or something like that.

[rereboy]

I am not criticizing other franchises. I am simply saying that a black hole, and the Big Bang, and other exotic phenomena, are not what you think they are, in such a way that it makes no sense to say that "character X is a black hole buster, therefore character X is a lot stronger than Vegetto" or something like that.

Umm, yes it does... Whatever powers or process that character used to destroy the black hole (as in making it cease to exist) would also most certainly destroy Vegetto, and if not that exact ability, those characters have tons of different abilities with power way beyond Vegetto.

All that Vegetto can really do, when we really get down to it, is destroy stuff on a big scale, but these characters can destroy stuff on an almost incomprehensible larger scale than Vegetto, besides all the other stuff they can do...

[Toriyama-sama]

Why do you think it would also destroy Vegetto? What do you mean by "destroying a black hole" or making it "cease to exist"? And why do you think Vegetto wouldn't be able to destroy a black hole as well? (Using the same definition of "destroy", and assuming a universe with laws that allow for a black hole and Vegetto to coexist.) Why is Vegetto "inferior" to a black hole?

Because, again, a black hole is not the same kind of physical object you see everyday.

[rereboy]

Why do you think it would also destroy Vegetto? What do you mean by "destroying a black hole"? And why do you think Vegetto wouldn't be able to destroy a black hole as well? (Using the same definition of "destroy", and assuming a universe with laws that allow for a black hole and Vegetto to coexist.) Why is Vegetto "inferior" to a black hole?

Because if it can destroy/nullify/make disappear something as powerful, complex and even immaterial as a black hole, an organic living being that can be destroyed by an normal explosion as long as it is big enough, shouldn't be a challenge.

Its a feat beyond the scale of any feat seen or implied in Dragon Ball.

[Toriyama-sama]

Well, a black hole is probably much less complex than every other type of celestial object, actually. I also don't think it makes sense to say it's powerful (as in "character X is powerful"). And it does contain mass, charge and angular momentum, so I wouldn't call it imaterial either.

According to current knowledge a black hole is a region of space-time geometrically disconnected from the outside, in such a way that you can go in but you can't get out. An explosion isn't going to affect it, at least directly. In other words, you can't bust a black hole.

You can probably make it disappear with magic, though. Then of course, magic can potentially accomplish everything. But Vegetto possesses magical abilities as well!

As I said, this truly is trying to compare the incomparable.

[rereboy]

Well, a black hole is probably much less complex than every other type of celestial object, actually. I also don't think it makes sense to say it's powerful (as in "character X is powerful"). And it does contain mass, charge and angular momentum, so I wouldn't call it imaterial either.

According to current knowledge a black hole is a region of space-time geometrically disconnected from the outside, in such a way that you can go in but you can't get out. An explosion isn't going to affect it, at least directly. In other words, you can't bust a black hole.

You can probably make it disappear with magic, though. Then of course, magic can potentially accomplish everything. But Vegetto possesses magical abilities as well!

As I said, this truly is trying to compare the incomparable.

No, its not. A character that can destroy a black hole, like you correctly described, has to have more than just an ability to make things go boom like Vegetto does. A character able to do that probably either has such strong magic that it can make it happen, or reality, space-time warping abilities that defy comprehension. Either of which should be more than enough to take care of Vegetto, not to mention all the other things that it can do.

Also, we understand planets and the like way better than we understand black holes. Hence why I said they are more complex. And they are very powerful due to the energy involved in it. Its pull is so strong that not even light escapes. Imagine the energy involved in something like that.

[Toriyama-sama]

The thing is, no one knows what Vegetto can endure, but whatever may be needed to take him down just won't bust a black hole simply because there's no way to bust a black hole (note that this was the initial claim). So, in order to "destroy" one, you pretty much have to resort to the kind of abilities we only find in fiction, which still doesn't mean those very abilities would be enough to anihilate Vegetto. In short, it's perfectly possible to come up with something that eliminates one but not the other, and vice-versa. Just depends on the writer.

And just because we have much more knowledge about planets than we have about black holes doesn't mean the latter are more complex than the former. Which is not to say general relativity (a theory that describes gravitation and predicts black holes) is simple, because it most definitely isn't. The reason we know much more about other celestial objects is that they're much more accessible than black holes are, which in turn makes them much easier to study. By the way, don't think in terms of "pull"; that's a classical mechanical concept, general relativity makes no use of it. (To be honest, that's exactly the problem with the whole stuff: Physics is very counterintuive and you can't think of it in terms of what you obtain from your senses.)

[rereboy]

The thing is, no one knows what Vegetto can endure, but whatever may be needed to take him down just won't bust a black hole simply because there's no way to bust a black hole (note that this was the initial claim). So, in order to "destroy" one, you pretty much have to resort to the kind of abilities we only find in fiction, which still doesn't mean those very abilities would be enough to anihilate Vegetto. In short, it's perfectly possible to come up with something that eliminates one but not the other, and vice-versa. Just depends on the writer.

And just because we have much more knowledge about planets than we have about black holes doesn't mean the latter are more complex than the former. Which is not to say general relativity (a theory that describes gravitation and predicts black holes) is simple, because it most definitely isn't. The reason we know much more about other celestial objects is that they're much more accessible than black holes are, which in turn makes them much easier to study.

We have a pretty good idea of what Vegetto is and can endure. He is just like Goku and Vegeta and the other saiyans, but he has much more Ki and is stronger because of it. That's basically all there is to it.

And busting a black hole is simply another way to say that, with his power and abilities, a character is able to make a black hole cease to exist.

Obviously, how the character is able to "destroy" the black hole matters to the discussion of beating Vegetto. If its a scientist with a machine that can make black holes disappear, I doubt Vegetto has much to fear in direct battle, but I was talking more about the characters that can make a black hole cease to exist by snapping their fingers.

Complexity is a subjective term. Something is more complex than another if we understand it less than the other thing, if we find it more complicated. In fact, something might be complex to me and simple to you, while another thing is complex to you and simple to me. So, no, black holes are more complex than most of the things we know about since we understand them poorly.

[Toriyama-sama]

We have a pretty good idea of what Vegetto is and can endure. He is just like Goku and Vegeta and the other saiyans, but he has much more Ki and is stronger because of it. That's basically all there is to it.

We have never seen the limit of Vegetto's power (plus I'm of the opinion DB has no limits), but we know he has at least some magical abilities.

And busting a black hole is simply another way to say that, with his power and abilities, a character is able to make a black hole cease to exist.

Well I disagree. Would be much more accurate to just say "said individual can create stuff out of thin air and make it disappear in the same fashion". Hardly a rare ability in fiction, and we've seen it in Dragon Ball.

Obviously, how the character is able to "destroy" the black hole matters to the discussion of beating Vegetto. If its a scientist with a machine that can make black holes disappear, I doubt Vegetto has much to fear in direct battle, but I was talking more about the characters that can make a black hole cease to exist by snapping their fingers.

As you can see, you do agree that many factors play out in a match. If you are willing to conceed that a ficticious (normal human) scientist can create a machine that makes black holes disappear, then it's automatically obvious that the ability in itself won't win battles. A strong foe that warps reality might be a problem, but then again, this is not necessarily so and an immediate counterexample that comes to mind is none other than Gogeta and Janemba.

Complexity is a subjective term. Something is more complex than another if we understand it less than the other thing. In fact, something might be complex to me and simple to you, while another thing is complex to you and simple to me. So, no, black holes are more complex than most of the things we know about since we understand them poorly.

Black holes are more simple than planets in the sense that electrons are also more simple than planets: an electron can be described by a single wave function and a black hole can be described a single metric, but the same doesn't happen with a planet, which is a complex, in part even chaotic, system.
Which is not to say quantum mechanics (electron) or general relativity (black hole) are easy. But classical mechanics (solid, liquid and gaseous phases of Earth, and most of everyday phenomena) and statistical mechanics (atmosphere) aren't easy either. The fact that we know little about black holes stems from the fact that we have very little experimental data to test the theory and from the (theoretical) inacessibility of the inner region (hence me insisting in the phrase "current understanding") and not from it being a particularly difficult subject comparatively to the others (unless you really delve into the hardcore mathematical rigour, which is usually left to mathematicians themselves and not so much to theoretical physicists).

[Draken]

TTGL accidentally swipes Vegetto with his tongue while panting and fighting multi-dimensional multiverse busters and erases him.

[Hellspawn28]

TTGL is the size of the galaxy. So the DBZ characters are just sperm compare to it.

[Draken]

TTGL is the size of the galaxy. So the DBZ characters are just sperm compare to it.

Sorry I meant to say TTGL accidentally erases the solar system

[rereboy]

We have never seen the limit of Vegetto's power (plus I'm of the opinion DB has no limits), but we know he has at least some magical abilities.

Like what? Resisting Buu's candy beam is probably just because he's so strong compared to Buu that not even Buu's magic worked properly.

Well I disagree. Would be much more accurate to just say "said individual can create stuff out of thin air and make it disappear in the same fashion". Hardly a rare ability in fiction, and we've seen it in Dragon Ball.

No, disappear or cease to exist in the same way that a person ceases to exist when she is killed. There are lots of ways a person can be killed, but all that matters is that the person ceases to exist right? Its the same line of thought regarding a black hole.

By the way, you are nitpicking what is a pretty straightforward concept. The destruction of a black hole is, by definition, no different than the destruction of anything else. When something is destroyed, it ceases to exist as it once was (or disappears entirely). For example, a planet destroyed by an explosion ceases to exist as a planet, and is merely space debris. But, as a black hole is a different thing than a planet, what is required to destroy a black hole is different than what is required to destroy a planet. What is necessary to make it cease to exist as a black hole, is different. But that's the only difference. The concept of the destruction of the black hole itself is pretty straightforward.

As you can see, you do agree that many factors play out in a match. If you are willing to conceed that a ficticious (normal human) scientist can create a machine that makes black holes disappear, then it's automatically obvious that the ability in itself won't win battles. A strong foe that warps reality might be a problem, but then again, this is not necessarily so and an immediate counterexample that comes to mind is none other than Gogeta and Janemba.

Most of the characters listed by me on the top half of that list aren't scientists with extraordinary machines, but beings of incredible power that surpass Vegetto in every way.

Black holes are more simple than planets in the sense that electrons are also more simple than planets: an electron can be described by a single wave function and a black hole can be described a single metric, but the same doesn't happen with a planet, which is a complex, in part even chaotic, system.
Which is not to say quantum mechanics (electron) or general relativity (black hole) are easy. But classical mechanics (solid, liquid and gaseous phases of Earth, and most of everyday phenomena) and statistical mechanics (atmosphere) aren't easy either. The fact that we know little about black holes stems from the fact that we have very little experimental data to test the theory and from the (theoretical) inacessibility of the inner region (hence me insisting in the phrase "current understanding") and not from it being a particularly difficult subject comparatively to the others (unless you really delve into the hardcore mathematical rigour, which is usually left to mathematicians themselves and not so much to theoretical physicists).

And you ignored my point completely. Nice.

[Cursed Lemon]

TTGL is the size of the galaxy. So the DBZ characters are just sperm compare to it.

Orrrrrr...

DBZ characters are like tricky little bacteria.

[Rocketman]

You can't destroy a black hole. It is a hole, nothingness. It is not even empty space.

[Draken]

You can't destroy a black hole. It is a hole, nothingness. It is not even empty space.

What if TOAA wanted to destroy a black hole???