Who's Stronger: Janemba or Hirudegarn.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

That still doesn't explain basic things like Goku tanking a punch to the face from the same guy who defeated Gohan with a light smack of his tail.

If the base Saiyans can fight with #13, #14, and #15, who are slightly below the Super Saiyans, if base Gohan can fight wit SS Goten, and if base Goku can beat non-serious SS Gohan & Goten, the SS3 Goku can take the hits of the much stronger than him Hildegarn. Like I've said, Toei doesn't follow the same logic with the manga's logic in their own content (filler, movies, specials, GT).

Well, Toei is a company, not a person. We don't know if the statement about Janenba > Hildegarn was made by the writer of the movie.

You really don't need to explain the production of the movies to me of all people .

Yeah yeah, I know.

So what would it take for you to be OK with it? Would it have to be the writer? The director? The producer?

Who does it take, and how much, for you to believe something? It was stated on a website. What if it was also stated in an interview? In a guide book? In the movie pamphlet? But never in the movie itself? What would it take? Would it ever matter?

It depends on the source. While it may be an official source, it doesn't always make it correct. Guidebooks like the Daizenshuu are mostly correct, but they still have some mistakes, and there are sources that have just wrong things, like RandomGuy96 has already said. And I find most of the official BP (minus the manga ones) questionable.

Yusuke Watanabe says "Birusu" is a pun on one thing, Toriyama thought something else, and the overall production company behind the movie says something else, too. So which is it? Who do you believe? Which is it? Which is the truth?

This is a complicated issue here. I take Beerus because it combines both intended puns.

Is the original ending to the manga the "real" one, or is the updated kanzenban ending? Toriyama personally drew them both. So which is it?

The latest one, because it shows the author's latest vision of the series.

[RandomGuy96]

If the base Saiyans can fight with #13, #14, and #15, who are slightly below the Super Saiyans, if base Gohan can fight wit SS Goten, and if base Goku can beat non-serious SS Gohan & Goten, the SS3 Goku can take the hits of the much stronger than him Hildegarn. Like I've said, Toei doesn't follow the same logic with the manga's logic in their own content (filler, movies, specials, GT).

So basically "it doesn't have to make sense because it doesn't make sense"?

That's not just "manga logic", that's blatantly showing one character to be stronger than another.

Gotenks: gets punched once and is down for the count.

Goku: gets punched numerous times and is fine.

[Duo]

I'm with Mike on this one. I never even asked myself how these two would stack up against one another. We have no idea if the writers had the same strength level in mind for Goku from one film to the next, to just begin listing potential problems of comparison.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So basically "it doesn't have to make sense because it doesn't make sense"?

It doesn't make sense by the manga standards, but it makes sense by the anime standards.

That's not just "manga logic", that's blatantly showing one character to be stronger than another.

Gotenks: gets punched once and is down for the count.

Goku: gets punched numerous times and is fine.

Forgot to mention, but Goku was fully ready to take the hits (and he barely managed to stay awake), while Gotenks & Gohan were caught off-guard.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

How was Gotenks taken off-guard? Didn't Hirudegarn fly right up to him and punch him in the face? To me, it just shows the newly transformed Hirudegarn was simply stronger than Gotenks.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

How was Gotenks taken off-guard? Didn't Hirudegarn fly right up to him and punch him in the face?

Yes, but Gotenks was still in a WTF moment.

To me, it just shows the newly transformed Hirudegarn was simply stronger than Gotenks.

I don't disagree with that, Hildegarn is stronger than U. Gohan, SS3 Gotenks, and SS3 Goku IMO. My point was that Gohan & Gotenks, who are stronger than Goku going by the manga, were KOed by Hildegarn's hits because they were caught off-guard, while Goku could resist because he was fully ready to take them.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Oh, okay. I understand what you mean now.

[Herms]

We have no idea if the writers had the same strength level in mind for Goku from one film to the next, to just begin listing potential problems of comparison.

That's the main thing, really: there's that big shift in how SSj3 Goku is handled. When DBZ movie 12 was made, the anime was at the point where all Goku had done with SSj3 was have an inconclusive battle with a relatively weak form of Boo, and he was hyping up Fusion as the only way to beat Boo for real. So it's natural that in the movie SSj3 Goku is portrayed as ultimately no match for the villain, and Fusion is the key to victory.

By the time DBZ movie 13 was made though, the anime was at the point where Goku was turning his back on any form of fusion since it didn't suit his personality, and fighting one-on-one with what the anime repeatedly called the strongest form of Boo. So DBZ movie 13 simply follows suit and has SSj3 Goku be the strongest guy in town, using a fancy new attack to take down a villain who easily beats the pants off everyone else. It's hard to reconcile any of this from an "in-universe" perspective, but that's really not how the movie writers were thinking.

[Duo]

That's the main thing, really: there's that big shift in how SSj3 Goku is handled. When DBZ movie 12 was made, the anime was at the point where all Goku had done with SSj3 was have an inconclusive battle with a relatively weak form of Boo, and he was hyping up Fusion as the only way to beat Boo for real. So it's natural that in the movie SSj3 Goku is portrayed as ultimately no match for the villain, and Fusion is the key to victory.

By the time DBZ movie 13 was made though, the anime was at the point where Goku was turning his back on any form of fusion since it didn't suit his personality, and fighting one-on-one with what the anime repeatedly called the strongest form of Boo. So DBZ movie 13 simply follows suit and has SSj3 Goku be the strongest guy in town, using a fancy new attack to take down a villain who easily beats the pants off everyone else. It's hard to reconcile any of this from an "in-universe" perspective, but that's really not how the movie writers were thinking.

This way of thinking can essentially explain every single film. It's not based on series continuity or carefully balanced power relationships - it's just running with the general idea's happening in the anime at the time and setting them up differently to tell another story. Brilliant post, Herms.

[thegoodnamesgone]

Well Hirudegarn was killed by an SSJ3 Goku, while Janemba was killed by a fusion of Goku and Vegeta = Gogeta which is stronger than SSJ3 Goku, to add Janemba basically defeated SSJ3 Goku.

[Origibros]

I was just wondering this a few minutes ago, I'd have to go with Super Janemba (Goku beat large Janempa easily) as they both used illusions to beat their enemies except if I recall correctly Hirudegarn did it vastly more often, meaning he might not be able to 1v1 an opponent like Mystic Gohan, Goku did beat Hirudegarn but he had to use the OP Dragons Fist so... It's a tricky one but Super Janemba whilst he did get hit from Goku a few times, he sorely outclassed him. A good question because I'm still not sure. But I'm going to say Super Janemba.

[goku the krump dancer]

Both Movie 12 and Movie 13 had different promises to them...

In Movie 12 fusion was the only way to win so Janemba was made strong enough to overpower SSJ3 Goku.

In Movie 13 "If Goku cant do it no one can" seems to be the theme of the film so SSJ3 Goku was made to stand tall in the film, regardless of who is supposed to be stronger than who which to be completely honest is still up in the air, post Boo. so anything goes really since nothing specifically stated.

So in Movie 13 Goku could be A. Stronger than he was in the previous film or B. Hildegarn might not be as strong as the previous movie's main villain despite taking out characters who were stronger than Goku in the Boo arc.

[Duo]

The events of Movie 13 were hax as heck going in Goku's favor. Hard to really even take it into consideration for any power level debate given how little sense some of the events seem to make. That movie was far better written for emotional content then it was for power level balancing. Which I'm totally cool with nowadays!

[RandomGuy96]

The events of Movie 13 were hax as heck going in Goku's favor. Hard to really even take it into consideration for any power level debate given how little sense some of the events seem to make. That movie was far better written for emotional content then it was for power level balancing. Which I'm totally cool with nowadays!

I like the theory that cutting off the monster's tail made him much weaker. That makes it feel like Trunks actually had SOME impact, and makes Hildegarn a closer counterpart to Super Buu, who he has a similar role to (as Janemba has a similar role and personality to Buu's fat and pure forms).

His top and bottom halves are two parts of a whole that are united to form an enormously powerful being. So, the evil and good halves of Buu. His first form is said enormously powerful being, but is still weaker than Gotenks, who beats on him and hits him with a barrage of ki blasts. He'd be equivalent to Super Buu. His 'evolved' form is a much more powerful version of his previous form, who is now not only stronger than Gotenks, but Gohan as well, who he easily defeats, similar to Buutenks. Finally, he gets an important piece of him severed, causing his strength to drop significantly, and fights with SS3 Goku before falling to Goku's ultimate technique, representing Super Buu's reversion to Pure Buu and destruction by the Genki Dama.

[Duo]

The events of Movie 13 were hax as heck going in Goku's favor. Hard to really even take it into consideration for any power level debate given how little sense some of the events seem to make. That movie was far better written for emotional content then it was for power level balancing. Which I'm totally cool with nowadays!

I like the theory that cutting off the monster's tail made him much weaker. That makes it feel like Trunks actually had SOME impact, and makes Hildegarn a closer counterpart to Super Buu, who he has a similar role to (as Janemba has a similar role and personality to Buu's fat and pure forms).

I never heard of that idea, but it makes a great deal of sense. It's too bad the official materials don't make such a reference, because it rectifies a lot of problems continuity enthusiasts have with the film.

[Herms]

It should have turned out that he's just some little kid who transformed into a monster, and then he reverts back to normal after Trunks cuts off his tail.

OK, maybe not.

[Darkprince410]

The events of Movie 13 were hax as heck going in Goku's favor. Hard to really even take it into consideration for any power level debate given how little sense some of the events seem to make. That movie was far better written for emotional content then it was for power level balancing. Which I'm totally cool with nowadays!

I like the theory that cutting off the monster's tail made him much weaker. That makes it feel like Trunks actually had SOME impact, and makes Hildegarn a closer counterpart to Super Buu, who he has a similar role to (as Janemba has a similar role and personality to Buu's fat and pure forms).

I never heard of that idea, but it makes a great deal of sense. It's too bad the official materials don't make such a reference, because it rectifies a lot of problems continuity enthusiasts have with the film.

I've brought that up as a theory of mine in the past (don't know if others had come to the conclusion as well, but I know I've brought it up before), as we see during one of the scenes that Hildegarn uses his tail for some form of eating/absorption. We see him open his tail up and extend out hundreds of tentacles, grabbing and pulling people back into it, likely for some form of sustenance. Since it's more than a simple appendage to him (rather a vital part of his being) and that he doesn't have the means to regenerate it like Cell, losing it would likely be significantly damaging to his healthy.

[Kaboom]

I like the theory that cutting off the monster's tail made him much weaker. That makes it feel like Trunks actually had SOME impact, and makes Hildegarn a closer counterpart to Super Buu, who he has a similar role to (as Janemba has a similar role and personality to Buu's fat and pure forms).

His top and bottom halves are two parts of a whole that are united to form an enormously powerful being. So, the evil and good halves of Buu. His first form is said enormously powerful being, but is still weaker than Gotenks, who beats on him and hits him with a barrage of ki blasts. He'd be equivalent to Super Buu. His 'evolved' form is a much more powerful version of his previous form, who is now not only stronger than Gotenks, but Gohan as well, who he easily defeats, similar to Buutenks. Finally, he gets an important piece of him severed, causing his strength to drop significantly, and fights with SS3 Goku before falling to Goku's ultimate technique, representing Super Buu's reversion to Pure Buu and destruction by the Genki Dama.

And all the while, Janemba's full power is more-or-less equivalent to that of Gohan-Boo, and they both get their butts kicked by a Goku/Vegeta Fusion.

All partially-serious kidding aside, I like that theory too, and it's the sort of idea I subscribe to when it comes to Hildegarn as well. Having re-watched the movie recently, I noted that SSJ3 Goku never actually "exchanged blows" with Hildegarn until AFTER Trunks chopped his tail off (all he did before it was dodge one swipe). It could very well be the case that Hildy's power did indeed drop a whole bunch to the point where Goku could defend against him adequately before getting his opening for the Dragon Fist.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Having re-watched the movie recently, I noted that SSJ3 Goku never actually "exchanged blows" with Hildegarn until AFTER Trunks chopped his tail off (all he did before it was dodge one swipe).

Didn't Goku transform after the tail was cut? I'm not sure though.

[Kaboom]

Didn't Goku transform after the tail was cut? I'm not sure though.

Nope. Hildegarn escapes, Goku goes SSJ3, Hildegarn throws one swipe which Goku dodges, Trunks chops off Hildy's tail, final showdown ensues.