At which point is KK x10 activated?
Re: At which point is KK x10 activated?
That's interesting, about the Daizenshuu entry. Perhaps it not being colored that way is a potential slip-up from Shueisha? I can understand it being easy to miss, though. They probably just wanted to make sure at least one instance was clearly shown as the Kaio-Ken before Kaio's comment on it.
[ BlueSky | Bsky: DBS Plots | DeviantArt | Twitter (Depreciated) ]
[PSN/Steam: KaboomKrusader | Switch FC: SW-4304-7361-2824 | ACNH Dream Address: DA-1637-4046-7415 ("SlamZone") ]
Powar Levuls! — DBZ | Movies & Specials | GT
[PSN/Steam: KaboomKrusader | Switch FC: SW-4304-7361-2824 | ACNH Dream Address: DA-1637-4046-7415 ("SlamZone") ]
Powar Levuls! — DBZ | Movies & Specials | GT
Re: At which point is KK x10 activated?
You skipped like 95% of my post to only focus on the first part. Where's the part where Goku stops using KK and Piccolo/Vegeta/Gohan/Krillin go WTF GOKU UR POWER??? Or Goku sensing the entire fight, realizing Freeza/Piccolo/Vegeta's current power, and leaving the healing chamber going "I'm so strong now, even I'm surprised." Why would he be surprised at a strength 4-5x weaker than Piccolo and Vegeta?freezamite wrote:From another thread:I wouldn't say that he is affected by every single use. Goku uses KKx2 in short burst, but without any short-term drawback like being damaged or exhausted.Draken wrote:Riddle me this : Goku uses KKx2/x3/x4 on Vegeta, and every single use without exception causes Goku visible strain and is quite tiring. Goku leaves the gravity chamber upon arriving at Namek and proclaims he might be able to use up to KKx10 now. Might, as his maximum. Yet he can now suddenly use an "invisible kaioken" with absolutely no strain and remain completely calm and composed? And use it continuously without rest? Piccolo, Vegeta, Gohan, Krillin, and Freeza all saw Goku and the Z-warriors were all in awe of Goku's power. Piccolo + Vegeta = Both easily over one million, in awe of 300,000? Are you retconning KK being a short burst of power to suit your own needs? Because otherwise Piccolo would be like "Wait... Goku just dropped to WAY less than what he was putting out a moment ago... wait.... kaioken... GOKU YOU SCRUB."
He only get's visibly damaged when he uses KK that he "can't" use, like KKx3 and KKx4.
When he arrives at Namek, he says that he can use up to KKx10, so I assume that at that point he has the KKx10 as dominated as the KKx2 was back on the earth.
In that context, between the zenkay power up and the time he stays on the healing machine he perfects this level of KK even more, to the point where he can use it even at no cost.
Remember that the fact that the KKx10 is invisible it's also valid for your point, because what you say is a KK aura it's in fact a flying aura (black eyes coupled with the fact that it disappears as soon as Goku stops flying at full speed) and the page where Kaito says "Goku is already using KKx10" has Goku drawn with NO AURA.
So in my opinion, in front of the conflicting points I have explained on my message above, the fact that Goku has perfected the use of the KKx10 seeing how the KKx20 deals less damage to him than the KKx4 did back on the earth (and that's 10 levels of KK, and double the level if you wan't to look at it from a relative perspective) is a better approach than him suddenly activating it after some inexplicable blows he receives and Freezer breaks the internal manga coherency in order to adapt to it.
Regards!
- freezamite
- Banned
- Posts: 392
- Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:57 pm
Re: At which point is KK x10 activated?
The invisible Kaioh Ken is perfectly "visible" on the very same page Kaioh is saying Goku is using the KKx10 and there's no KK aura drawn anywhere.Kaboom wrote:Just a few panels after this is when Kaio points out that Goku's using the Kaio-Ken x10 already. Seems like this is what he's referring to, and Goku's still helpless against Freeza.
There continues to be no evidence of an "invisible Kaio-Ken" happening anywhere.
Besides that, it's a bit curious to say the least how the flying aura of Goku against Freezer, which doesn't have even the whitened eyes present on every single KK aura, it's coloured as if it was a KK aura. And an aura that at first glance was drawn like a KK aura (besides it being still a flying aura because it disappeared once Goku stopped his movement) it's coloured as some sort of SSJ aura.
Considering that this colouration wasn't made by Toriyama, and it was made by the same ones that made the guides, it's not strange that it coincides with what the guides explain.
I don't know what are you trying to achieve saying that I skipped 95% of your post. I only answered one of the two arguments you made and I forgot to answer the other one, and you put more text on the first one than on the second one, so I don't know what's your concept of 95% but it surely differs from the one I have.Draken wrote: You skipped like 95% of my post to only focus on the first part. Where's the part where Goku stops using KK and Piccolo/Vegeta/Gohan/Krillin go WTF GOKU UR POWER??? Or Goku sensing the entire fight, realizing Freeza/Piccolo/Vegeta's current power, and leaving the healing chamber going "I'm so strong now, even I'm surprised." Why would he be surprised at a strength 4-5x weaker than Piccolo and Vegeta?
That being said, Goku always considered the KK part of his resources as a fighter. He in fact scared Ginyu using the KK, so I don't know why it should be different at that point of the series. He is weaker than them in terms of pure strength, but he is much stronger when everything is factored in, and that's what matters in the end.
On the other hand, I'm still waiting for you to respond to those contradictions I found on your theory:
Paraphrasing your percentage take on the situation, you've avoided to answer 100% of my arguments (and this time it's a real 100%).This KK activation based on the aura has the following problems:
1. It lacks coherence with the context of the story. Yes, Goku was resistant and such, but Raditz destroyed him while fighting softly and the difference was only of 3x, and he lost to fighters who had the same power than him. If Vegeta who was also praised by his endurance or Nappa who's endurance surprised even Goku weren't able to resist those kinds of differences, Goku also wasn't able to do that. (The context of this is Goku resisting Freezer's hits at 50% without using the KK, when those hits were strong enough to surpass him with the KKx10 activated).
2. It lacks coherence with the context of the action. So he powers up 10 times and receives more damage than when he wasn't powered up? Why did he power up then?
3. It even lacks coherence with how it was drawn. KK's aura always implied whitened eyes and this one doesn't have it. You could say that this is also true for my theory of the "invisible" KKx10, but at least it's coherent in that KKx10 is always drawn without a KK aura. On the other hand, that sudden KK activation based on the aura drawn lacks coherence with all the previous KK auras and also with how the KKx10 was represented itself, because in those pages Goku is clearly using the KK... without an aura (Chapter 312 page 14 and Chapter 313 page 1). So you also have the "invisible Kaioh Ken" problem.
4. It lacks coherence with every other similar situation resembling that (a sudden increase in strength as a surprise attack) and breaks the character of Freezer. How could Freezer react to that attack if Goku, in a much more favourable situation, couldn't react to a similar one?
That was Goku's situation compared to this one:
4.1. Goku was aware that Freezer was at his 50% AND Freezer said he would increase his power.
4.2. Goku was at a much bigger distance from Freezer, thus having more time to react to the surprise attack than Freezer had.
4.3. Goku had the ability to sense Freezer's power, unlike Freezer who couldn't have sensed Goku's increase in power with the KKx10.
4.4. Goku was looking at Freezer, Freezer wasn't even looking at Goku.
4.5. Freezer's increase was an order of magnitude lower than Goku's increase, so even when still a surprise attack, it was much less of a surprise in terms of how much the strength was increased.
4.6. Also according to you, the difference in power between 70% Freezer and SSJ Goku was more or less the same as the one between Goku KKx10 and Freezer at 50% of his power (84 - 150 vs 30 - 60).
Re: At which point is KK x10 activated?
I didn't even read your thread, I just saw the last page. And you still haven't answered my question either so.... Still skipped my post. What happens when Goku drops KK? KK is not a constant powerup like Super Saiyan, it's an extremely short burst of power. How does no one else in the series notice Goku's 10x decrease in strength every time the drop stops? How was Goku amazed at a power level of 300,000 when he had sensed powers of 1/2/3 million?
1. Since when were gaps 100% consistent? Nappa x Goku = 2x gap, Nappa not one shot. Vegeta x Cui = 1.33x gap, Cui one shot. Raditz x Goku = 3x gap (as said by yourself), Goku not one shot.
2. Because Freeza powered up EVEN more? Freeza was using ~3% of his full power, or 3.6 million.
3. Others have already shown you color manga sketches so idk what more you want.
4. Because Freeza had that much of a lead on Goku? 50% Freeza = 60 million. Goku = jump from 3 mill to 30 mill. It's like jumping from a 5 year old kid to a 12 year old kid when fighting a veteran boxer who's in his prime.
150/84 = 1.74x ish gap. 60/30 = 2x gap. Not even close. And irrelevant since, as stated above and proven with several examples, PL gaps are inconsistent.
1. Since when were gaps 100% consistent? Nappa x Goku = 2x gap, Nappa not one shot. Vegeta x Cui = 1.33x gap, Cui one shot. Raditz x Goku = 3x gap (as said by yourself), Goku not one shot.
2. Because Freeza powered up EVEN more? Freeza was using ~3% of his full power, or 3.6 million.
3. Others have already shown you color manga sketches so idk what more you want.
4. Because Freeza had that much of a lead on Goku? 50% Freeza = 60 million. Goku = jump from 3 mill to 30 mill. It's like jumping from a 5 year old kid to a 12 year old kid when fighting a veteran boxer who's in his prime.
150/84 = 1.74x ish gap. 60/30 = 2x gap. Not even close. And irrelevant since, as stated above and proven with several examples, PL gaps are inconsistent.
Re: At which point is KK x10 activated?
Here's the version in the full color manga.
No red.
(And...somebody already posted this. Oh well.)
In the past, I did think this panel was Kaio-ken, but not a high level of it by any means. There's no reason for Goku to use his utmost limit at this point.
No red.
(And...somebody already posted this. Oh well.)
In the past, I did think this panel was Kaio-ken, but not a high level of it by any means. There's no reason for Goku to use his utmost limit at this point.
- freezamite
- Banned
- Posts: 392
- Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:57 pm
Re: At which point is KK x10 activated?
KK is a technique that works while it's activated, and it doesn't have anything to do with it being used on short burst or long ones.Draken wrote:I didn't even read your thread, I just saw the last page. And you still haven't answered my question either so.... Still skipped my post. What happens when Goku drops KK? KK is not a constant powerup like Super Saiyan, it's an extremely short burst of power. How does no one else in the series notice Goku's 10x decrease in strength every time the drop stops? How was Goku amazed at a power level of 300,000 when he had sensed powers of 1/2/3 million?
During the fight against Vegeta the KKx3 was used during more time than the KKx2 ever was, and the KKx3 was clearly worse.
If the KK can be maintained after activation, and we were never explained about a limit in that sense, then there's no reason to think that there was a limit here.
Raditz was kicking Goku softly enough not to kill him, said by Raditz himself, so of course the difference can't be the same as two fighters that go all out since the beginning.Draken wrote:1. Since when were gaps 100% consistent? Nappa x Goku = 2x gap, Nappa not one shot. Vegeta x Cui = 1.33x gap, Cui one shot. Raditz x Goku = 3x gap (as said by yourself), Goku not one shot.
Regarding the other gaps, that only proves HOW INCONSISTENT THE DAIZENSHUU IS, not the manga. On the manga, every time that there was a killing intent, a 10% difference was big enough to be decisive and you won't find a single example that contradicts this.
Of course, for the sake of coherency, power gaps have to be consistent with what we are told.
No, we are speaking from after Freeza has already powered up. Freezer powers up to 50% and deals to blows to Goku before the point where you say the KKx10 is activated. But then he activates it and he is still destroyed by Freezer, who deals a blow that harms him even more than the previous hits. That's what I meant with how inconsistent the action drawn was.Draken wrote:2. Because Freeza powered up EVEN more? Freeza was using ~3% of his full power, or 3.6 million.
Colored mangas are like official guides or filler episodes, material not made by the author. If we go with the coloured manga, then Goku was a SSJ with its golden aura even before using KKx10 according to you.Draken wrote:3. Others have already shown you color manga sketches so idk what more you want.
We are speaking strictly about what Toriyama did at that point, and if I grab the manga this is the first and last KK aura drawn with Goku's eyes not being white coloured, so it's inconsistent with all the other KK auras drawn.
And you still have to explain why on the page Kaito says Goku is using KKx10 he has no aura drawn (as I said, invisible KK also applies to you).
Even if 2x is still bigger than 1.74x, this scene is impossible to explain for a Freezer that:Draken wrote:4. Because Freeza had that much of a lead on Goku? 50% Freeza = 60 million. Goku = jump from 3 mill to 30 mill. It's like jumping from a 5 year old kid to a 12 year old kid when fighting a veteran boxer who's in his prime.
150/84 = 1.74x ish gap. 60/30 = 2x gap. Not even close. And irrelevant since, as stated above and proven with several examples, PL gaps are inconsistent.
1. Has no ability to sense energy increases.
2. Is not looking at Goku.
And in contrast we have multiple even wider power gaps or much more favourable situations that couldn't prevent for the sneak factor to be there.
We know Freezer wasn't very good at noticing sudden changes, like when Piccolo successfully sneak attacks him from behind or when Goku manages to distract him with two telepatically-controlled energy attacks, so how could he be the only character able to react to that, and why he suddenly becomes incapable of doing so?

