Why are 18 & 17 stronger in the present than in Trunks' time

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

But as I say, at that point Trunks still had a greater interest than simply tell the others what he knew. He was trying to convince the others to pull back until Goku was healed and increase their chances at winning, so it's only logical that if he lied before he would do it again.
It's only after the fight against the androids has taken place that he had no reason to lie about that subject.

He told them the Androids had infinite energy, so why would he continue to purposely hold-back pertinent information? It wouldn't have changed anything. If Trunks admitted he could put up a fight against the Androids, would this have lessened their efforts to find the Androids? Probably not. As I said, everyone trained for the last three yrs, so the motivation was already there. Trunks's reflection of his Androids in comparison to the ones he had just fought with the others is to show how terrifyingly strong the main timeline Androids were. So in essence, Trunks's battle with his Androids was quite impressive compared to his efforts (sword was useless, was down in two attacks) against these new Androids.

Also, they were trying to destroy the Androids before they were awakened by Gero. To lie at that point really adds nothing to Trunks's plan. Before fighting the Androids of the main timeline, the Future Androids were the strongest beings he's ever fought--so he assumed they were the same as the ones in the main timeline.

On the contrary. The fact that he was considered a toy meant that he was able to put up a decent fight, otherwise Trunks would've been killed like the rest of the humans.
I don't think Trunks has to be able to fight them BOTH equally, I mean, maybe Trunks was only able to fight against one of them during a short period of time.

The Future Androids were shown to enjoy games. #17 tells #18 if she gets rid of Trunks, they'll have one less toy to play with. They treated Gohan in the same manner, except they had gotten bored with him. Trunks admits he was lucky to have survived the battle, so that's more on the Androids not going out of their way to finish him, if anything.

Yes, I don't deny that. He was still below both androids, and this is why I say that the most probable scenario is that he "cheated" in order to kill them. But what I mean is that even if he "cheated" the difference in terms of pure strength couldn't be "huge" in the sense of the androids being above that 10% barrier that translates into complete dominance.

So if #17 decided to sit out and let #18 fight Trunks alone, how would the fight go in your opinion?

She didn't damage Vegeta either at that point, so I don't see why Vegeta not seriously damaging #18 is a proof of him being under the android, when we see that the android wasn't able to injure Vegeta either.

When Vegeta punches her in the stomach, she doesn't flinch one bit--yet she stuns him with a knee-bash and knocks him away. That attack certainly didn't tickle Vegeta. Both Piccolo and #17 were beating the crap out of each other--since we can visible damage on both. That's an equal fight in terms of power. Vegeta getting pissed that he can't hurt #18 is very telling.

The fight was portrayed as an equal match, and I think that if we don't see Vegeta connecting bigger hits on #18 is purely because that match was there to hype the androids, so instead of having Vegeta and #18 trading and connecting huge punches between them Toriyama decided to go for a fight where none of the characters could connect a solid punch until one of them became tired.

That might be so, but she's still stronger than him. Later, as powered-up (not full-power) Piccolo is fighting Cell, #16 says one of the new powers "rivals" both of the Androids. Since Piccolo is later shown to be on-par with #17, it makes sense for powered-up Piccolo to be in the same range of power as both of the Androids, but not stronger just yet. Vegeta says Piccolo is superior to his Super Saiyan, and hates that the Saiyans are continuously surpassed by everyone. This likely includes Cell as well.

Also, #18 never has an issue admitting when someone is really strong. She says Vegeta was helpless against her, and that seems more than clear enough to me.

But that would be out of character. Trunks doesn't know about that remote control until he casually discovers it's existence after bringing Bulma the maps he found on Guero's lab, and in fact, he is pretty amazed by the finding.

Trunks realizes that Gero needed a remote control to stop the Androids when they weren't taking orders, but yeah, he had no idea about the blueprints.

Also, we're talking about two different versions of Trunks: the one we know and see in the Manga, and the one (Cell's time) that spent time in the past before going back in the future to defeat the Androids. Everything that Trunks does is totally unknown to us, aside from the fact that he defeated the Androids and wanted to tell the others about his victory.

If he had known about this remote control before instead of appearing in front of Goku & the others and defeating Mecha Freezer he would've gone directly towards Guero's lab, destroyed it, and take the control remote since the beginning and even without explaining anything to Goku & the others.

Yes, but again, we're talking about two different versions of Trunks. The Trunks from Cell's timeline would've likely gotten it from the past timeline he was in, which is obviously different than the timeline we know. My guess is they fought the Androids of that time, likely came across the blueprints in some way--or perhaps salvaged enough pieces of the broken remote control (that the Androids would've probably destroyed once Gero awakened them) so Bulma could create a new one. Trunks would then have the chance to take this device to his time in order to destroy the Androids once they're done with the Androids of that time.

Personally I like the idea of this more than a sneak attack.

But then, how did he kill them without the remote control?

I don't think he could without powering-up as much as he did in the main timeline.

[freezamite]

He told them the Androids had infinite energy, so why would he continue to purposely hold-back pertinent information? It wouldn't have changed anything. If Trunks admitted he could put up a fight against the Androids, would this have lessened their efforts to find the Androids? Probably not. As I said, everyone trained for the last three yrs, so the motivation was already there.

He only pulled back the information that he considered dangerous. Trunks wanted to avoid the fight until the chances of winning were as high as possible, and he decided to lie or to tell a partial truth in order to achieve that.
Of course, if you want some people who are willing to fight not to do so, to scare them is a logical tactic even if it was ineffective.

Trunks's reflection of his Androids in comparison to the ones he had just fought with the others is to show how terrifyingly strong the main timeline Androids were.

I don't deny that, but at the same time, that also put the future androids at a level where Trunks could put a fight against them.

Also, they were trying to destroy the Androids before they were awakened by Gero. To lie at that point really adds nothing to Trunks's plan. Before fighting the Androids of the main timeline, the Future Androids were the strongest beings he's ever fought--so he assumed they were the same as the ones in the main timeline.

Everyone in DB is a fighting maniac. If Trunks at that point had said that he could fight against the future android you could be sure that both Piccolo and Vegeta would have preferred to fight instead than finding the lab and destroying the androids.
In fact, seeing what Vegeta does with Cell afterwards, I wouldn't be surprised that even with the lies Trunks told he had the intention of fighting the androids since the beginning.

The Future Androids were shown to enjoy games. #17 tells #18 if she gets rid of Trunks, they'll have one less toy to play with. They treated Gohan in the same manner, except they had gotten bored with him. Trunks admits he was lucky to have survived the battle, so that's more on the Androids not going out of their way to finish him, if anything.

Well, the first two lines where as you say a fallacy for my part. The androids also toyed with Gohan when he was clearly no macth for them, so it was a bad argument.
That being said, Trunks being considered a toy doesn't mean he couldn't fight against one of them during a few minutes, for example.

So if #17 decided to sit out and let #18 fight Trunks alone, how would the fight go in your opinion?

Something like Piccolo vs #17 on the present timeline if like in the present timeline, #18 is weaker than #17.

When Vegeta punches her in the stomach, she doesn't flinch one bit--yet she stuns him with a knee-bash and knocks him away. That attack certainly didn't tickle Vegeta.

But at that point Vegeta wasn't fighting seriously. The real fight (with both of them going at it with all they got) starts after that scene, and from there on the difference is nothing big until Vegeta had lost too much energy.

Both Piccolo and #17 were beating the crap out of each other--since we can visible damage on both. That's an equal fight in terms of power. Vegeta getting pissed that he can't hurt #18 is very telling.

It's not that he got scared or anything, so him not doing the android too much damage was within his calculations. Vegeta it's a pretty transparent character in that sense, once he knows he has no chance he starts to tremble and to fear the enemy.
For how he reacts, he just didn't launch an attack with the intent to kill the android.

That might be so, but she's still stronger than him. Later, as powered-up (not full-power) Piccolo is fighting Cell, #16 says one of the new powers "rivals" both of the Androids. Since Piccolo is later shown to be on-par with #17, it makes sense for powered-up Piccolo to be in the same range of power as both of the Androids, but not stronger just yet. Vegeta says Piccolo is superior to his Super Saiyan, and hates that the Saiyans are continuously surpassed by everyone. This likely includes Cell as well.

I don't think Cell is included in that "stronger than SSJ" category at that point (he in fact saw Vegeta and was really impressed by how strong it had become).
As you say, at that moment Piccolo wasn't full powered still, and we also know that #17 was stronger than #18. By how #16 speaks, something like #17 > Piccolo > #18 with those differences being really tiny is a plausible scenario.

Also, #18 never has an issue admitting when someone is really strong. She says Vegeta was helpless against her, and that seems more than clear enough to me.

But that's because Vegeta really was helpless against her. The chances of Vegeta winning were absolutely 0. But what made that difference wasn't the brute force but the unlimited energy the android had.

Trunks realizes that Gero needed a remote control to stop the Androids when they weren't taking orders, but yeah, he had no idea about the blueprints.

When did he realize that? I mean, in Trunk's future line he knows the android were created by Guero and that they killed him, but I don't see how he would realize the existence of that controller...

Also, we're talking about two different versions of Trunks: the one we know and see in the Manga, and the one (Cell's time) that spent time in the past before going back in the future to defeat the Androids. Everything that Trunks does is totally unknown to us, aside from the fact that he defeated the Androids and wanted to tell the others about his victory.

Do we really know that Trunks spent time on the earth? I mean, this is not said on the manga as far as I recall.
There are clearly two different Trunks, that's true, and since what created the timeline difference was Cell travelling back in time before Trunk's arrival, every action on the present timeline that we see could be different on the one we don't see so... well, I think it's really a possibility for Trunks to investigate on the present timeline until he finds about the remote.

My guess is they fought the Androids of that time, likely came across the blueprints in some way--or perhaps salvaged enough pieces of the broken remote control (that the Androids would've probably destroyed once Gero awakened them) so Bulma could create a new one. Trunks would then have the chance to take this device to his time in order to destroy the Androids once they're done with the Androids of that time.

Personally I like the idea of this more than a sneak attack.

Well, Trunks sneak attacked at least one time the androids on the present timeline and also Cell while he was still transforming. But what you say it's also a possibility, a bit convoluted (I prefer to apply the Occam's razor if possible) but it surely is possible that things resulted this way.

I don't think he could without powering-up as much as he did in the main timeline.

In the main timeline he powered up to the point of being able to defeat 2nd form Cell so there was no need to power up that much to kill those androids.
The 2nd timeline is never shown, and since Cell affected the whole actions Trunks did on the 3rd timeline then every plausible scenario about how he could defeated the future androids is possible. At this point I think this is more a matter of tastes. I prefer to go with the less convoluted option of him being able to fight against the androids and attacking them in a way he could kill them, but it's true that what you say is equally possible thanks to that being an entirely different Trunks since the beginning.

Regards!

[FoolsGil]

I like Saligir's idea on it: Like any other machine, 17 and 18 go through mechanical wear and tear. Sure, they could still hold back plenty of power, but Present 17 and 18 held back against Vegeta and the others, there's a good chance both timeline Androids version of holding back and full power are just at two different levels.

[freezamite]

I like Saligir's idea on it: Like any other machine, 17 and 18 go through mechanical wear and tear. Sure, they could still hold back plenty of power, but Present 17 and 18 held back against Vegeta and the others, there's a good chance both timeline Androids version of holding back and full power are just at two different levels.

#18 clearly says that she is fighting at maximum strength, and #17 confirms that saying that #18 won't be able to win if everyone goes against her since the beginning.

[dbgtFO]

I agree with Turlast in saying #18 was a good deal stronger than Vegeta.
Once they started fighting seriously Vegeta didn't manage to damage her one bit, whereas when #18 hit Vegeta, he was always getting visibly damaged, contrast that with #17 vs Piccolo, where both ended up bleeding severely from their mouths.

[freezamite]

I agree with Turlast in saying #18 was a good deal stronger than Vegeta.
Once they started fighting seriously Vegeta didn't manage to damage her one bit, whereas when #18 hit Vegeta, he was always getting visibly damaged, contrast that with #17 vs Piccolo, where both ended up bleeding severely from their mouths.

From what I can tell, none of them injuries the other until Vegeta has lost enough ki to be clearly below the android.
And then we have Trunks saying that Vegeta fights #18 at the same level, and Piccolo saying that if Vegeta loses is because he gets tired, so at this point I think I need to ask you to give me an indication of at which pages Vegeta gets clearly injured and the android doesn't before Vegeta loses too much energy to fight it.

[dbgtFO]

Chapter 352, when #18 and Vegeta got serious, #18 wasn't fazed at all by Vegeta's hit, whereas Vegeta crumbled after taking #18's hits. Then in the next chapter even after having Vegeta blast her in the face, she's completely fine contrasted with Vegeta bleeding from his forehead and mouth a testament to her superiority.
In my opinion that's made even clearer, when we see the later fight between Piccolo and #17. Piccolo was stated to be as strong as #17 and both fighters ended up being visibly damaged instead of just one of them.
The fight seems to go in the same vein as other fights, where Vegeta seems to be putting up a good fight, but is ultimately unable to do anything of significance against his opponent and ends up getting severely injured as logic would dictate.
This backed up by #18 disregarding Vegeta's strength before going on to break his arm.

I just don't see why I should think, that Vegeta was just as strong as #18.

[freezamite]

Chapter 352, when #18 and Vegeta got serious, #18 wasn't fazed at all by Vegeta's hit, whereas Vegeta crumbled after taking #18's hits. Then in the next chapter even after having Vegeta blast her in the face, she's completely fine contrasted with Vegeta bleeding from his forehead and mouth a testament to her superiority.

That example you put is from before Vegeta got serious. From the strength checker:

Chapter: 352 (DBZ 158), P10.3-4
Context: after Vegeta tries to blast No.18, only managing to destroy a truck
No.18: “That blast just now wasn’t anywhere near your all.”
Vegeta: “Of course not…If I gave it my all, the entire Earth would be wiped out…”

After that, she responds:

Chapter: 352 (DBZ 158), P11.1
Context: after fighting Vegeta for awhile
No.18: “I haven’t been giving it anywhere near my all either. Can you tell?”

And then, even if it's not on the strength checker, Vegeta says something on the lines of:
In this case fight with all you got, otherwise you'll regret it.

It's at this point that #18 surpasses Vegeta, but that's because #18 is fighting seriously and Vegeta still isn't. After that Vegeta is overpowered and receives a head-but, and he also is kneed on the stomach and hit on the face (with a bit of blood coming out of his head and mouth). But that all happens on the context of #18 going at it with all she got, and Vegeta still not doing so.
This is also confirmed by the fact that Vegeta's reaction to that showing of #18 it's not the same he has when he is surpassed. Vegeta may enjoy to fight, but when he is overpowered he gets scared and starts to tremble. It happened against Zarbon, it happened against the Ginyu force, it happened with Freezer and it happens again with Perfect Cell. So him reacting the way he did against #18 hits meant that what he said about him not using all he got was true.

After that, the fight resumes at chapter 353 with both of them going at full force, and none of them have a big advantage over the other one. Nor in terms of strength, nor in terms of speed.
The quotes are also very clear on that part:

Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P12.3-6
Trunks: “Am-amazing! I hadn’t realized that father was this strong…! To think that he’s able to fight on par with that outrageous android…!”
Piccolo: “Vegeta’s going to be killed…[ ] Watch…Bit by bit, the android is starting to push him back. It’s because his enemy’s power never falls at all, while Vegeta’s stamina falls the more he moves.”

So more than a big difference of power, it's how the fight is portrayed by Toriyama. This was the androids presentation and he wanted to hype them, so instead of a brutal fight where both fighters connected huge impacts on the other fighter, he decided to go for a much cleaner approach, and also to include that little scene of #18 attacking at full force while Vegeta was still not going at his maximum fighting capacity.

In my opinion that's made even clearer, when we see the later fight between Piccolo and #17. Piccolo was stated to be as strong as #17 and both fighters ended up being visibly damaged instead of just one of them.
The fight seems to go in the same vein as other fights, where Vegeta seems to be putting up a good fight, but is ultimately unable to do anything of significance against his opponent and ends up getting severely injured as logic would dictate.
This backed up by #18 disregarding Vegeta's strength before going on to break his arm.

I just don't see why I should think, that Vegeta was just as strong as #18.

Piccolo was, when powered up to his maximum strength, a bit above #17. Not strong enough to compensate the fact that #17 had unlimited energy, but enough to put a great fight against him.
Vegeta on the other hand was just as strong as #18, and to make it worse (for him) it was #18 who went all out first (so Vegeta lost a bit of energy even before he got serious).
Of course, in a scenario of two equally strong fighters where one of them doesn't lose energy when is damaged and doesn't get tired thanks to the unlimited energy, and the other one being a normal fighter in that sense, the one without the unlimited energy has nearly 0 chances to win.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

When #18 said Vegeta wasn't going all-out, that was when he blew up the truck with his Chi-blast.

dbgt is referring to when Vegeta knocked #18 down and used his Chi-blast to destroy her jacket. Right after, Vegeta says he's starting to be annoyed at how #18 can seemingly act as if nothing he's doing matters.

Vegeta isn't on-par with #18. Powered-up Piccolo is, according to #16, around the same level as both Androids:

No.16: “I don’t know. Neither is in my data. But one of the powers is large enough to rival you two.”

Vegeta later admits all of them are without a doubt stronger than Super Saiyans:

Vegeta: “They’re all just dicking around with me…! Easily surpassing the Super Saiyan, the greatest in the universe…!”

Vegeta can't sense #18, but he was well aware of her power and her stamina advantage. So it's not like he'd just forget about that. The above is nothing more than Vegeta reinforcing the fact that Piccolo and the Androids are simply more powerful than any Super Saiyan at this point.

Vegeta barely makes #18 flinch at his attacks, which shouldn't be possible if he's on her level. Also, Piccolo and #17 did an equal amount of damage to each other, so everything points to them being equal. There's also #17 and #18 both saying Piccolo is on the same level as #17 in terms of power. Keeping it in this saga, another good example is #16 Vs Imperfect Cell.

These two have the same power--and it's shown as both knock each other around a good bit quite evenly. Both kept getting the one-up on each other, which is a prime example of what an equal battle is. Vegeta does none of that in his battle. What's funny is Trunks somehow believing Vegeta is fighting on-par with #18 when she's doing nothing but blocking all of his attacks.

[Duo]

I love the explanation provided in DB Multiverse (fan manga) that says the Artificial Humans power source isn't actually "infinite" as it slowly reduces in power over a long stretch of time. Like 20 years.

Otherwise this topic has always bothered me as some inconsistent nonsense in the story.

[freezamite]

When #18 said Vegeta wasn't going all-out, that was when he blew up the truck with his Chi-blast.

dbgt is referring to when Vegeta knocked #18 down and used his Chi-blast to destroy her jacket. Right after, Vegeta says he's starting to be annoyed at how #18 can seemingly act as if nothing he's doing matters.

And when #18 starts going all out, in the scene Vegeta punches her in the stomach but doesn't harm her, and afterwards he is punched on the face and some blood comes from his forehead.

After Vegeta gets serious, none of them dominates the other one until Vegeta loses enough energy for the android to win. This goes from chapter 353 onwards. The fight on chapter 352 was with 18 going all out and Vegeta restraining part of his power, and it was there when #18 harmed Vegeta and made him bleed.

Vegeta can't sense #18, but he was well aware of her power and her stamina advantage. So it's not like he'd just forget about that. The above is nothing more than Vegeta reinforcing the fact that Piccolo and the Androids are simply more powerful than any Super Saiyan at this point.

Nobody is saying the androids and Piccolo-Kami weren't above Vegeta, the problem is that you take this as a power-focused speech, while there were other factors.
#17 was stronger than #18, and when #16 said that Piccolo was comparable to them in terms of strength he wasn't going all out (he was still using the training clothes with extra-weight). #18 was above Vegeta because of her infinite stamina, and not because she was more powerful than him. On the other hand, Piccolo didn't have any stamina advantage as far as we know, so it was his power that surpassed the SSJ.

In both cases the sentence "they're above me" is completely true, even if for different reasons.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

After Vegeta gets serious, none of them dominates the other one until Vegeta loses enough energy for the android to win. This goes from chapter 353 onwards. The fight on chapter 352 was with 18 going all out and Vegeta restraining part of his power, and it was there when #18 harmed Vegeta and made him bleed.

Then why is Vegeta mad that he can't damage #18? If they were equal, surely she wouldn't have been able to sit there and take his attack like it was nothing. The only thing destroyed is her jacket, and she immediately calls Vegeta weak right after he admits he's stronger than Goku. Again, if you want to look at an actual battle of equals in this saga, look at #17 Vs Piccolo and #16 Vs Cell. Both Androids have the stamina advantage and yet they still get knocked around by the opposition and take visible damage; something Vegeta could barely do in his battle. #17 even mentions that Piccolo's stamina is beginning to drop, but right before he said that, Piccolo was able to knock him down with a regular Chi-Blast. Vegeta's utterly destroyed and treated like a total weakling because of a gradual decrease in stamina. Similar, only Vegeta isn't in a position to put up a good fight like Piccolo because he's not as strong as his opponent.

Nobody is saying the androids and Piccolo-Kami weren't above Vegeta, the problem is that you take this as a power-focused speech, while there were other factors.
#17 was stronger than #18, and when #16 said that Piccolo was comparable to them in terms of strength he wasn't going all out (he was still using the training clothes with extra-weight). #18 was above Vegeta because of her infinite stamina, and not because she was more powerful than him. On the other hand, Piccolo didn't have any stamina advantage as far as we know, so it was his power that surpassed the SSJ.

No. It IS a power based statement if they're easily surpassing the Super Saiyan. The #16 statement on Piccolo puts him in the Androids league of power, which Vegeta is not in at all. The fact that non full-power Piccolo has a level of power rivaling the Androids while Vegeta states Piccolo is noticeably stronger than himself doesn't help your stance. You're going to use that single line from Piccolo where Vegeta is "slowly" being pushed back in light of everything else that puts Vegeta below the Androids and possibly Imperfect Cell?

In both cases the sentence "they're above me" is completely true, even if for different reasons.

She was above Vegeta because she had infinite stamina AND was more powerful than him. Vegeta knows she has infinite stamina and still states they easily surpass the Super Saiyan. It's not just "above me", it's above a level of power only the Saiyans had at that point.

[freezamite]

Then why is Vegeta mad that he can't damage #18? If they were equal, surely she wouldn't have been able to sit there and take his attack like it was nothing.

Where do you read that Vegeta was mad about anything? In fact, his reaction confirms that #18 wasn't more powerful than him, and that the result of his attack was far from unexpected.
Vegeta isn't the kind of character that laughs when is surpassed by a stronger opponent, he is the kind that once he sees he doesn't have a chance he starts to tremble and to fear the enemy.

This is valid for Vegeta in every fight he has. He trembles in front of Freezer's final form, he trembles in front of Zarbon's transformation and he trembles in front of Perfect Cell.
Yet when he fights #18 and according to you he launches his strongest attack to her and she isn't even damaged, Vegeta knowing he has no possibility suddenly changes his personality and reacts with a smile on his face.

Sorry, but this approach breaks the character. Vegeta's attack, even if he was fighting at full force, wasn't the strongest one he had, and for how the android reacts to it he clearly thinks that he can win.

In fact, after this scene you point as an evidence of Vegeta being "mad" (that's as mad as Goku was after connecting that surprise kick on Freezer, way before he powered up to 50%) and no one will say that Goku was below Freezer at that point of the fight in terms of strength.

The only thing destroyed is her jacket, and she immediately calls Vegeta weak right after he admits he's stronger than Goku.

She says this:

Vegeta: “Don’t kid yourself. He may have temporarily slipped by me, but now things have returned to normal and I should be on top again.”
No.18: “What? So you’re nothing special. Either of you.”

which never specifies about what she is talking. An opponent that's only as strong as you but lacks infinite stamina (which means that only will be able to fight you during a few seconds or a minute at best) it's of course "nothing special" from her perspective.
Vegeta had 0 chances of winning so he was considered "nothing special". So what?

Again, if you want to look at an actual battle of equals in this saga, look at #17 Vs Piccolo and #16 Vs Cell.

Or you could look at the first part of the Goku vs Freezer or Goku vs Cell where they fight without connecting clean hits at least for a few chapters. This was the kind of fight that Vegeta was given to #18 and the reason was obvious, that fight was to hype the androids so even if on Toriyama's head they had that strong, they had to be presented in the most spectacular way possible, but always in-character.

#17 even mentions that Piccolo's stamina is beginning to drop, but right before he said that, Piccolo was able to knock him down with a regular Chi-Blast.

And Vegeta was also able to knock #18 down with her attacks, it's only that he couldn't fight for enough time to harm her as much as piccolo did to #17, probably because Piccolo was stronger than #17 in terms of strength, but not enough to kill him before loosing energy.

Similar, only Vegeta isn't in a position to put up a good fight like Piccolo because he's not as strong as his opponent.

Which contradicts everything that's said of that fight. He put a good enough fight during the few seconds/minutes he was strong enough to do so.
What that means is that Piccolo was stronger compared to #17, than Vegeta was compared to #18.
But Vegeta could clearly hold its own against the android, maybe if he didn't underestimate her and if he attacked at maximum strength since the beginning, he would've had a chance to connect stronger punches and to deal more damage to her.

No. It IS a power based statement if they're easily surpassing the Super Saiyan.

So if Peter and I decide to have a 2km long race around our village, and he wins me by a 10 minutes difference because I'm only able to run at the same speed as him for a tiny fraction of time, he can't say he surpassed me?
#18 clearly surpassed Vegeta, and it did it thanks to its unlimited energy.

The #16 statement on Piccolo puts him in the Androids league of power, which Vegeta is not in at all. The fact that non full-power Piccolo has a level of power rivaling the Androids while Vegeta states Piccolo is noticeably stronger than himself doesn't help your stance.

Why not?
Piccolo powered up > #17 > Piccolo vs Cell > #18 = SSJ Vegeta and there you have it.

You're going to use that single line from Piccolo where Vegeta is "slowly" being pushed back in light of everything else that puts Vegeta below the Androids and possibly Imperfect Cell?

Everything else it's just your interpretations on the manga, and we're still discussing them because as you see I have another interpretation of what happens.
As I see it, there's no reason to doubt those lines (there's also the line where Trunks says Vegeta is fighting the android at her same level).

She was above Vegeta because she had infinite stamina AND was more powerful than him. Vegeta knows she has infinite stamina and still states they easily surpass the Super Saiyan.

No, that AND you put here is what we're discussing, and it's never said anywhere. To you it's implied, but to me clearly isn't. And of course, the fact that he knows that the android has infinite stamina when he says this clearly reinforces my stance of he not speaking about power levels but about SSJ being surpassed as fighters (and that's what matters in the end).

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Where do you read that Vegeta was mad about anything? In fact, his reaction confirms that #18 wasn't more powerful than him, and that the result of his attack was far from unexpected.

He's annoyed that she's not hurt from his attack. Vegeta was no longer playing at this point. He was trying to finish her off. #18 can act like nothing is happening because he's nowhere near strong enough to get a reaction out of her.

Vegeta isn't the kind of character that laughs when is surpassed by a stronger opponent, he is the kind that once he sees he doesn't have a chance he starts to tremble and to fear the enemy.This is valid for Vegeta in every fight he has. He trembles in front of Freezer's final form, he trembles in front of Zarbon's transformation and he trembles in front of Perfect Cell.

He didn't laugh, he had a slight smile while telling her he's annoyed that she can pretend like his attacks don't matter. Also, he never trembled against Reacoom after he showed no damage from his attack; he kept on fighting until he lost the battle. He can't sense #18, so he wouldn't be aware of how strong she is until he feels her strongest attacks.

Yet when he fights #18 and according to you he launches his strongest attack to her and she isn't even damaged, Vegeta knowing he has no possibility suddenly changes his personality and reacts with a smile on his face.

He doesn't know he has no chance, but he is annoyed that she isn't hurt. Those certainly aren't words from someone not trying to cause damage.

Sorry, but this approach breaks the character. Vegeta's attack, even if he was fighting at full force, wasn't the strongest one he had, and for how the android reacts to it he clearly thinks that he can win.

So he was going all-out, but not doing his best. Good. I can say the same about #18, then. Also, if we're going to go by character showings, Vegeta was always shown to be incredibly durable--even when he was outmatched by his enemy. #18 broke his arm without any trouble at all and he couldn't stop it. That signifies a noticeable power difference.

In fact, after this scene you point as an evidence of Vegeta being "mad" (that's as mad as Goku was after connecting that surprise kick on Freezer, way before he powered up to 50%) and no one will say that Goku was below Freezer at that point of the fight in terms of strength.

Vegeta mentions he's annoyed that #18 can act as if nothing's happening. Unless you can prove his statement is baseless, it's accurate. Otherwise, why would he mention it if he wasn't even trying his best? Also, the difference between that part you're referring to and this is that Goku wasn't going all-out, Vegeta was. Big difference.

which never specifies about what she is talking. An opponent that's only as strong as you but lacks infinite stamina (which means that only will be able to fight you during a few seconds or a minute at best) it's of course "nothing special" from her perspective.
Vegeta had 0 chances of winning so he was considered "nothing special". So what?

It means exactly what it says. And she certainly doesn't think Vegeta is as strong as her if she considers him helpless in their battle.

Or you could look at the first part of the Goku vs Freezer or Goku vs Cell where they fight without connecting clean hits at least for a few chapters. This was the kind of fight that Vegeta was given to #18 and the reason was obvious, that fight was to hype the androids so even if on Toriyama's head they had that strong, they had to be presented in the most spectacular way possible, but always in-character.

Hyping the Androids would be having them way stronger than their opposition, not as strong as them. This, according to you, is Vegeta losing badly because he didn't have enough stamina--while failing to do any damage in the process.

And Vegeta was also able to knock #18 down with her attacks, it's only that he couldn't fight for enough time to harm her as much as piccolo did to #17, probably because Piccolo was stronger than #17 in terms of strength, but not enough to kill him before loosing energy.

Piccolo was on-par with #17. It's stated twice. He's not stronger--and he certainly doesn't take #17's attacks as if they're nothing.

What that means is that Piccolo was stronger compared to #17, than Vegeta was compared to #18.

No. It means Piccolo was actually an equal to #17 and Vegeta was not. #17 was knocking Piccolo around in a similar fashion.

But Vegeta could clearly hold its own against the android, maybe if he didn't underestimate her and if he attacked at maximum strength since the beginning, he would've had a chance to connect stronger punches and to deal more damage to her.

And did no visible damage to her at all. Either way, doesn't look equal to me.

So if Peter and I decide to have a 2km long race around our village, and he wins me by a 10 minutes difference because I'm only able to run at the same speed as him for a tiny fraction of time, he can't say he surpassed me?

That...example doesn't really help. Peter surpassed you because he was simply a better runner than you; especially if it was by a 10 min difference. He left you in the dust and you were never in a position to do anything worthwhile in that race. Peter and #18 are actually really similar; their opposition couldn't keep up with them and therefore was never in a position to gain the upper-hand. The issue here is you're trying to seperate the power and stamina. #18 was simply better than Vegeta.

#18 clearly surpassed Vegeta, and it did it thanks to its unlimited energy.

Point out the amount of times "surpassed" has been used in the context of this series without it ever being focused on power.

So why was she able to disable him with so much ease? We've seen when Vegeta is running low on stamina earlier (against #19), he had to revert to normal and makes note of his lack of stamina after being absorbed. None of that happens here. What actually happens is he slowly loses power and less than a page later he gets utterly manhandled by someone who is more powerful than himself.

Piccolo powered up > #17 > Piccolo vs Cell > #18 = SSJ Vegeta and there you have it.

So Vegeta is #18's equal and the more powerful Piccolo rivals #17 and #18 while being way stronger than Vegeta...and #18? Does not compute--otherwise, he would only be rivaling #17 and would be way stronger than #18, whom you have exactly equal to Vegeta.

We're told twice that Piccolo is on-par with #17, which the battle shows us. Piccolo fighting Cell can be between the Androids or behind #18 because rivaling doesn't necessarily mean stronger or equal. He just has a power large enough to rival them. Cell's weaker than #18 and only acknowledges that Vegeta is stronger than he thought he was. According to Goku, he can't beat Cell or the Androids, and since Vegeta isn't way stronger than Goku, I see no reason why this wouldn't apply to Vegeta as well. Vegeta makes note of Piccolo and Cell's power before admitting how easily the Super Saiyans are being surpassed.

Everything else it's just your interpretations on the manga, and we're still discussing them because as you see I have another interpretation of what happens.
As I see it, there's no reason to doubt those lines (there's also the line where Trunks says Vegeta is fighting the android at her same level).

#18 parrying all of Vegeta's attacks is an equal fight? Oh.

I have no reason to doubt this line:

No.18: “[Vegeta]’s a damn fool…! Does he think that someone who was helpless against me could do anything against Cell the way he is now…?!”

But wait. Vegeta has the same power as #18, and #18 can even tell Piccolo is on #17's level, so she's not dumb or inept at understanding power. Vegeta was helpless in their battle, according to her. That's not putting up a good fight--it means he was unable to do anything relevant in the fight. Based on what you're saying, it was an equal fight, and she only won because she had an advantage in stamina. If that were the case, why didn't she bother to mention Vegeta was on-par with her like #17 does to Piccolo? Because Vegeta's not on-par with her.

No, that AND you put here is what we're discussing, and it's never said anywhere. To you it's implied, but to me clearly isn't. And of course, the fact that he knows that the android has infinite stamina when he says this clearly reinforces my stance of he not speaking about power levels but about SSJ being surpassed as fighters (and that's what matters in the end).

Except Piccolo, the Androids and Cell are all grouped together as surpassing the Super Saiyans. Vegeta actually acknowledges Cell's "ridiculously huge Battle Power", btw. The chances of him being weaker than Cell are pretty good, I believe.

[freezamite]

Where do you read that Vegeta was mad about anything? In fact, his reaction confirms that #18 wasn't more powerful than him, and that the result of his attack was far from unexpected.

He's annoyed that she's not hurt from his attack. Vegeta was no longer playing at this point. He was trying to finish her off. #18 can act like nothing is happening because he's nowhere near strong enough to get a reaction out of her.

As I said, if that was a totally unexpected result for Vegeta and he had given all he got in that attack he would be as terrified as when he fights against Cell or Freezer or anyone else that surpasses him.
His reaction is not that one, but more the kind of reaction he had when he fought against 4th form Freezer (the weakest one).
It's undeniable that after that attack, Vegeta still thinks he can win the fight, which wouldn't make any sense if that was all he got and he couldn't do any damage to #18.

He didn't laugh, he had a slight smile while telling her he's annoyed that she can pretend like his attacks don't matter. Also, he never trembled against Reacoom after he showed no damage from his attack; he kept on fighting until he lost the battle. He can't sense #18, so he wouldn't be aware of how strong she is until he feels her strongest attacks.

He never trembled against Reecoome you say? He trembled against the whole special squad even before they landed on Namek, desperately trying to achieve his immortality wish to fight them. At the point he fought against Reecoome he had already trembled a lot, so there was no point on trembling even more.

He doesn't know he has no chance, but he is annoyed that she isn't hurt. Those certainly aren't words from someone not trying to cause damage.

Why wouldn't he? Didn't he know he hadn't a chance against Freezer even before Freezer landed a single hit on him?
If that was all his strength, and he couldn't do anything to #18, why does he react as if he has a chance? Why wouldn't he ignore the fact that he's done for, when he has clearly showed that in front of situations like that he is perfectly capable of recognising when he has no chances of winning?

So he was going all-out, but not doing his best. Good. I can say the same about #18, then.

You're talking specifically about the damage dealt. He was going all-out, but he launched fast attacks instead of strong, concentrated ones. Since he was impressed by the android speed before I don't think this kind of approach can surprise anyone.
Cell and Goku also connect a lot of hits, but not all of them have the same effect because like in real fights, going all out doesn't mean "to throw the biggest punches all the time".

What I mean is that there are two kinds of "even" fights in DB, the ones where both characters destroy each other, and the ones where none of them is significantly superior to the other one and none of them achieve to damage the other one. Vegeta SSJ vs #18 was the second type of fight.

Also, if we're going to go by character showings, Vegeta was always shown to be incredibly durable--even when he was outmatched by his enemy. #18 broke his arm without any trouble at all and he couldn't stop it. That signifies a noticeable power difference.

And again, at that point the difference between Vegeta and the android was high enough for that to happen. Vegeta was losing energy all the time, and the android wasn't. The difference got bigger and bigger until Vegeta couldn't fight against the android. That's what we are told and that's coherent with all that's said about that fight.

Vegeta mentions he's annoyed that #18 can act as if nothing's happening. Unless you can prove his statement is baseless, it's accurate. Otherwise, why would he mention it if he wasn't even trying his best? Also, the difference between that part you're referring to and this is that Goku wasn't going all-out, Vegeta was. Big difference.

Going all out doesn't mean to show your best attacks. Vegeta was a bit annoyed that he couldn't harm the android, but he wasn't terrified or even surprised by that fact, and he still thinks he can win, so its obvious that this wasn't Vegeta's biggest attack as you say or that he couldn't harm the android had he connected his best hits on her.

It means exactly what it says. And she certainly doesn't think Vegeta is as strong as her if she considers him helpless in their battle.

Exactly, what it says and not "what you want it to say". This phrase means that Vegeta is helpless against her, but in no way it says he is helpless because she is stronger. Vegeta loses because he lacks stamina compared to her, not because he couldn't reach her level when he was at his best condition.

Everything that's said on that fight or afterwards can be explained/justified if we just take it by what it says, but on the other hand, the moment you try to read this as "difference of brute force" you contradict Trunks and Piccolo's statements about the fight.

Hyping the Androids would be having them way stronger than their opposition, not as strong as them. This, according to you, is Vegeta losing badly because he didn't have enough stamina--while failing to do any damage in the process.

As I said, you can't go out of character. Of course, had the androids destroyed the SSJ with a single punch they would've been even more hyped than they were, but Toriyama decided that #18 would be as strong as Vegeta, and then he drew the fight considering that and hyping her as much as possible.

Another example of this is when SSJ2 Cell comes back from his explosion. He needed to be hyped as the final enemy, and killing Trunks wasn't of course enough for that. But on the other hand, he didn't want Cell to be much stronger than SSJ2 Gohan, so instead of him arriving and kicking SSJ2 Gohan's ass, Toriyama made a situation where Cell got hyped and at the same time those in-character limitations wouldn't be broken.

If we go with the android's presentation fight, #17 for example knocked Trunks with a single hit, which makes sense considering he was stronger than #18 and Trunks was weaker than Vegeta.

Another thing that's said during that fight, this time by #17 after seeing how strong Vegeta was, is that if they (the z-warriors) attacked all at once #18 wouldn't be able to win.
If the difference with the strongest one of the group (Vegeta) was so big that his best attack wouldn't be able to harm her even in the slightest, that sentence would lack any sense.

Piccolo was on-par with #17. It's stated twice. He's not stronger--and he certainly doesn't take #17's attacks as if they're nothing.

To be "on-par" doesn't mean to have exactly the same strength. Someone with 3.000.000 of units can be said to be on par with someone with 3.001.000 units or someone with a power of 2.999.000.
Piccolo was "on par" with #17, but since he could negate the stamina difference for that much time I think it's a logical approach to say that he was a bit above in terms of pure strength, but not enough to translate this into a decisive advantage.
Since Vegeta could only fight #18 for a shorter period of time, and considering he already took some damage before getting serious, I would say that he was at the same level of power than #18, but this time not on the higher part of what can be considered "same level as".

No. It means Piccolo was actually an equal to #17 and Vegeta was not. #17 was knocking Piccolo around in a similar fashion.

Piccolo told #17 he lacked strength despite his speed was good enough, which means that he was a bit above him.

And did no visible damage to her at all. Either way, doesn't look equal to me.

And the android also didn't do any visible damage to him during the time Vegeta is strong enough to fight against her.
It wasn't an equal fight, but it wasn't equal because of the difference in stamina and not the difference in brute force.

That...example doesn't really help. Peter surpassed you because he was simply a better runner than you; especially if it was by a 10 min difference. He left you in the dust and you were never in a position to do anything worthwhile in that race. Peter and #18 are actually really similar; their opposition couldn't keep up with them and therefore was never in a position to gain the upper-hand.

So what I say has it's coherence after all.

The issue here is you're trying to seperate the power and stamina. #18 was simply better than Vegeta.

And why is that an "issue"? We're told that #18 had unlimited stamina, and of course she didn't had unlimitedly high amount of strength, so to separate them it's not only not an issue, but a must.

Point out the amount of times "surpassed" has been used in the context of this series without it ever being focused on power.

Point out the amount of times a character with special "stamina" appeared, and there you have it. For what I recall, Goku said Freezer he surpassed him and that was also all thanks to the stamina difference (the match was totally even before Freezer had lost too much energy to properly fight against SSJ Goku), and in that fight, stamina is the reason #18 surpasses Vegeta.

So why was she able to disable him with so much ease? We've seen when Vegeta is running low on stamina earlier (against #19), he had to revert to normal and makes note of his lack of stamina after being absorbed.

That's false. Vegeta didn't have to revert to normal, he does that in order to reserve his power and only after he has scared #20.
Besides that, the difference between SSJ Vegeta and #19 was so big that even with the energy absorbed, he could dominate it completely. This wasn't the case for his fight against #18, where the energy lost resulted to be fatal.

None of that happens here. What actually happens is he slowly loses power and less than a page later he gets utterly manhandled by someone who is more powerful than himself.

You know that "a page" means nothing in a manga. There can be years of difference between one page and another one.
Vegeta fights #18 at her same level since the first page of chapter 353 and it does that until we reach page 13, and between pages 11 and 12 there could be a small jump in time (no longer than a few minutes, of course).

So Vegeta is #18's equal and the more powerful Piccolo rivals #17 and #18 while being way stronger than Vegeta...and #18? Does not compute--otherwise, he would only be rivaling #17 and would be way stronger than #18, whom you have exactly equal to Vegeta.

What... how? I mean, how do you reach that conclusion? It's obvious that the same difference in strength that is decisive between Piccolo and Vegeta wouldn't be that decisive between Piccolo and #18, due to #18 being stronger.
Since when #16 speaks about Piccolo's power in a moment he isn't fully powered up, he specifically speaks about STRENGTH, and he says "both to you", I put him between the androids at that point, and above Vegeta.

We're told twice that Piccolo is on-par with #17, which the battle shows us. Piccolo fighting Cell can be between the Androids or behind #18 because rivaling doesn't necessarily mean stronger or equal. He just has a power large enough to rival them. Cell's weaker than #18 and only acknowledges that Vegeta is stronger than he thought he was. According to Goku, he can't beat Cell or the Androids, and since Vegeta isn't way stronger than Goku, I see no reason why this wouldn't apply to Vegeta as well. Vegeta makes note of Piccolo and Cell's power before admitting how easily the Super Saiyans are being surpassed.

Not Cell by any means. Cell was inferior than Vegeta in terms of strength and the opposite isn't said anywhere as far as I recall. But then again, to be on-par as a fighter doesn't mean to be on-par in terms of strength. Piccolo was on-par with #17 because he could compensate the difference in stamina with the difference in power he had in its favour. In the end #17 would've ended being the winner (although Piccolo still had a triumph under his sleeve in form of the ultra-powerful attack he launched against Cell).

I have no reason to doubt this line:

No.18: “[Vegeta]’s a damn fool…! Does he think that someone who was helpless against me could do anything against Cell the way he is now…?!”

But wait. Vegeta has the same power as #18, and #18 can even tell Piccolo is on #17's level, so she's not dumb or inept at understanding power.

But what you refuse to admit is that "being on par" when special characteristics like "unlimited stamina" are upon the table doesn't have to be the same as "having the same power".
It's obvious that Vegeta was helpless against #18 because he had 0 chances of winning.
On the other hand, Piccolo was a bit above #17 and that allowed him to compensate the fact that the android had unlimited stamina, thus being called "on-par" by #18.

Vegeta was helpless in their battle, according to her. That's not putting up a good fight--it means he was unable to do anything relevant in the fight. Based on what you're saying, it was an equal fight, and she only won because she had an advantage in stamina. If that were the case, why didn't she bother to mention Vegeta was on-par with her like #17 does to Piccolo? Because Vegeta's not on-par with her.

And going back to my example about that 2Km race, I would be helpless against a friend that can have a 10 minute advantage over me after all is said and done, and as I explained you, it could be possible for me to run as fast as him even if it's only for a few seconds, and it would've been an equal race won by him because of his superior stamina. Can't my friend say that I'm helpless against him when it comes to run? Because I think that with that kind of a difference in a 2km race, that definition of the situation would be perfect.

Except Piccolo, the Androids and Cell are all grouped together as surpassing the Super Saiyans. Vegeta actually acknowledges Cell's "ridiculously huge Battle Power", btw. The chances of him being weaker than Cell are pretty good, I believe.

Cell was close to a SSJ level of strength, so that was of course an absurdly high amount of power. But from Cell's reaction in front of SSJ Vegeta I think it's safe to assume that he was still below him at that point, even if not by that much.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

As I said, if that was a totally unexpected result for Vegeta and he had given all he got in that attack he would be as terrified as when he fights against Cell or Freezer or anyone else that surpasses him.
His reaction is not that one, but more the kind of reaction he had when he fought against 4th form Freezer (the weakest one).

Vegeta looked pretty scared when Freeza arrived and when powered-up to fight them. Didn't stop him from tussling with him, did it?

Anyway, Vegeta isn't sure he can't beat #18 yet. He still think he has a chance, which is why he continues to fight. Still, it's apparent he's not sure how he's doing in the fight because he can't tell whether she's feeling his attacks or not.

It's undeniable that after that attack, Vegeta still thinks he can win the fight, which wouldn't make any sense if that was all he got and he couldn't do any damage to #18.

No different than what he did to Reacoom. Reacoom tanked his blast and it did nothing but destroy his armor. What does Vegeta do after? He continues to fight until he can't.

It's also undeniable that a visibly upset Vegeta punched #18 right in the gut and couldn't even make her flinch one bit--while she stunned him quite well with a knee bash. Another attack that yields no damage for someone he's equal with.

He never trembled against Reecoome you say? He trembled against the whole special squad even before they landed on Namek, desperately trying to achieve his immortality wish to fight them. At the point he fought against Reecoome he had already trembled a lot, so there was no point on trembling even more.

Yeah, because it's a team of five super powered enemies against him and two other guys. He feared the entire team. And rightfully so.

Why wouldn't he? Didn't he know he hadn't a chance against Freezer even before Freezer landed a single hit on him?
If that was all his strength, and he couldn't do anything to #18, why does he react as if he has a chance? Why wouldn't he ignore the fact that he's done for, when he has clearly showed that in front of situations like that he is perfectly capable of recognising when he has no chances of winning?

He only ever gave up against Freeza. He was shocked that Cell tanked his Final Flash--but what does Vegeta do after? Tries his hardest to blow him up with his Chi-blasts. Vegeta doesn't need to give up to prove a point.

What I mean is that there are two kinds of "even" fights in DB, the ones where both characters destroy each other, and the ones where none of them is significantly superior to the other one. Vegeta SSJ vs #18 was the second type of fight.

Which would be the same as Piccolo Vs #17 and Cell Vs #16, since no one had a significant advantage in those battles. No wait. Both Androids had unlimited stamina and still got knocked around and took visible damage.

It falls into the 3rd category: fight with someone for awhile and think you have a chance, only to be destroyed almost effortlessly when the battle is no longer interesting. Isn't it funny that Vegeta happens to be in (IE Reacoom and #18) this type of battle twice?

And again, at that point the difference between Vegeta and the android was high enough for that to happen. Vegeta was losing energy all the time, and the android wasn't. The difference got bigger and bigger until Vegeta couldn't fight against the android. That's what we are told and that's coherent with all that's said about that fight.

But why couldn't he hurt her before the stamina became a factor? Why didn't Vegeta's Chi-blast on #18 do anything when she was actually shown to be in an awkward position to defend herself? You mean to tell me they're equals and he can't stun her once during their fight?

Going all out doesn't mean to show your best attacks. Vegeta was a bit annoyed that he couldn't harm the android, but he wasn't terrified or even surprised by that fact, and he still thinks he can win, so its obvious that this wasn't Vegeta's biggest attack as you say or that he couldn't harm the android had he connected his best hits on her.

The fight alone is obvious that he can't defeat her. Nearly all of his attacks are rendered useless.

Exactly, what it says and not "what you want it to say". This phrase means that Vegeta is helpless against her, but in no way it says he is helpless because she is stronger. Vegeta loses because he lacks stamina compared to her, not because he couldn't reach her level when he was at his best condition.

He's helpless because he couldn't do anything to her. You don't put up a fight/equal your opponent while being helpless at the same time. That makes no sense.

Everything that's said on that fight or afterwards can be explained/justified if we just take it by what it says, but on the other hand, the moment you try to read this as "difference of brute force" you contradict Trunks and Piccolo's statements about the fight.

The difference in brute force was shown in the fight. Unless you can show when Vegeta actually succeeded in hurting her once.

As I said, you can't go out of character. Of course, had the androids destroyed the SSJ with a single punch they would've been even more hyped than they were, but Toriyama decided that #18 would be as strong as Vegeta, and then he drew the fight considering that and hyping her as much as possible.

The fact that they were hyped up well after the fight signifies that no one in the group could do anything to the Androids:

Piccolo: “They’re stupendously strong…Too strong…I never thought they’d be so great…”

Piccolo: “That would mean that Cell will greatly surpass No.17 and co., who you absolutely couldn’t handle.”

The "you" is referring to Vegeta.

Another example of this is when SSJ2 Cell comes back from his explosion. He needed to be hyped as the final enemy, and killing Trunks wasn't of course enough for that. But on the other hand, he didn't want Cell to be much stronger than SSJ2 Gohan, so instead of him arriving and kicking SSJ2 Gohan's ass, Toriyama made a situation where Cell got hyped and at the same time those in-character limitations wouldn't be broken.

Or he had to weaken Super Saiyan 2 Gohan enough so Cell wouldn't get trounced like before.

If we go with the android's presentation fight, #17 for example knocked Trunks with a single hit, which makes sense considering he was stronger than #18 and Trunks was weaker than Vegeta.

And because Trunks didn't see it coming, though I'm sure #17 would have no issue knocking down any Super Saiyan.

Another thing that's said during that fight, this time by #17 after seeing how strong Vegeta was, is that if they (the z-warriors) attacked all at once #18 wouldn't be able to win.

And what does Vegeta say when they arrive? That their help would be useless in the fight--which is before #17 even walks up and tells them to not interfere. So Vegeta automatically disqualifies the help from the others because they're not good enough to help.

If the difference with the strongest one of the group (Vegeta) was so big that his best attack wouldn't be able to harm her even in the slightest, that sentence would lack any sense.

Vegeta: “What an absolutely annoying bunch…Do you really think this is an opponent you guys would be any use against?”

Meaning: their help is useless against #18.

Vegeta has a better understanding of their power than #17 does. Remember, he had no idea Vegeta was that strong because he was going off of outdated information. For all he knew, any of those guys (no data on Trunks especially) could've potentially put forth more power than Vegeta. #17 even thought #16 would be able to handle them, and he thinks he's stronger than him. She also breaks Trunks's sword with no effort, so what Vegeta says is accurate.

To be "on-par" doesn't mean to have exactly the same strength. Someone with 3.000.000 of units can be said to be on par with someone with 3.001.000 units or someone with a power of 2.999.000.

They're on the same level, which is why they're able to do an equal amount of damage to each other. Same with Cell and #16.

Piccolo was "on par" with #17, but since he could negate the stamina difference for that much time I think it's a logical approach to say that he was a bit above in terms of pure strength, but not enough to translate this into a decisive advantage.

Whatever power advantage Piccolo had over #17 is hardly noticeable during the battle.

Since Vegeta could only fight #18 for a shorter period of time, and considering he already took some damage before getting serious, I would say that he was at the same level of power than #18, but this time not on the higher part of what can be considered "same level as".

Where's #18's damage in this equal fight?

Piccolo told #17 he lacked strength despite his speed was good enough, which means that he was a bit above him.

And yet Piccolo still got knocked around (and dodged #17) as much as he knocked #17 around and dodged.

Meaning: neither had a noticeable power or speed advantage. Simply put, they were equal. Piccolo being a bit stronger or slower than #17 doesn't change the fight one bit.

And the android also didn't do any visible damage to him during the time Vegeta is strong enough to fight against her.
It wasn't an equal fight, but it wasn't equal because of the difference in stamina and not the difference in brute force.

Explain why Vegeta has the same power as #18.

No, she headbutted him and completely ignored his gut punch before knocking him away. The best thing he does is destroy her jacket in the entire battle.

And I'd say nearly killing Vegeta with a few normal attacks certainly shows a difference in brute strength. You can't take Piccolo's "slowly" losing stamina quote and assume Vegeta suddenly had a large drop in stamina out of nowhere. That's never implied at all. The only thing implied is #18 will not lose energy and Vegeta will. Vegeta couldn't damage her (much less defeat her) before his stamina became an issue, either.

And why is that an "issue"? We're told that #18 had unlimited stamina, and of course she didn't had unlimitedly high amount of strength, so to separate them it's not only not an issue, but a must.

Unlimited stamina and strength beyond nearly everyone's imagination--including Trunks.

Point out the amount of times a character with special "stamina" appeared, and there you have it. For what I recall, Goku said Freezer he surpassed him and that was also all thanks to the stamina difference (the match was totally even before Freezer had lost too much energy to properly fight against SSJ Goku), and in that fight, stamina is the reason #18 surpasses Vegeta.

Ah, expected.

Goku was stronger than Freeza, but Freeza was able to keep up for a bit. It was clear that Freeza didn't have a chance of winning. Also, his Chi took a drastic hit because his 100% power pushed his body past its normal limits--which is why Goku calls him out on not being confident at handling his full-power.

That's false. Vegeta didn't have to revert to normal, he does that in order to reserve his power and only after he has scared #20.
Besides that, the difference between SSJ Vegeta and #19 was so big that even with the energy absorbed, he could dominate it completely. This wasn't the case for his fight against #18, where the energy lost resulted to be fatal.

He lost most of his power. Piccolo actually states this. There was nothing to reserve. And he hasd to eat a senzu before transforming back to Super Saiyan to chase #20. Also, he had to power-up and use his strongest attack to destroy #19. And he certainly didn't tear #19's hands off with ease.

You know that "a page" means nothing in a manga. There can be years of difference between one page and another one.
Vegeta fights #18 at her same level since the first page of chapter 353 and it does that until we reach page 13, and between pages 11 and 12 there could be a small jump in time (no longer than a few minutes, of course).

The next time they're shown, #18 is still blocking an attack from Vegeta. She stopped all of his attacks and proceeded to attack him after.

What... how? I mean, how do you reach that conclusion? It's obvious that the same difference in strength that is decisive between Piccolo and Vegeta wouldn't be that decisive between Piccolo and #18, due to #18 being stronger.

Glad you agree that Piccolo's power advantage over #18 isn't as significant as his power advantage over Vegeta. Guess we agree that #18 is stronger than Vegeta.

Since when #16 speaks about Piccolo's power in a moment he isn't fully powered up, he specifically speaks about STRENGTH, and he says "both to you", I put him between the androids at that point, and above Vegeta.

Yes:

No.16: “I don’t know. Neither is in my data. But one of the powers is large enough to rival you two.”

Powered-up Piccolo is in the same league as the Androids is what we can take from that.

Not Cell by any means. Cell was inferior than Vegeta in terms of strength and the opposite isn't said anywhere as far as I recall. But then again, to be on-par as a fighter doesn't mean to be on-par in terms of strength. Piccolo was on-par with #17 because he could compensate the difference in stamina with the difference in power he had in its favour. In the end #17 would've ended being the winner (although Piccolo still had a triumph under his sleeve in form of the ultra-powerful attack he launched against Cell).

Inferior based on what? Cell admits that Piccolo and the Androids are stronger than him. He senses Vegeta and makes note of him being stronger than expected. What makes you think Vegeta would conveniently leave Cell out of the "everyone" category after making note of his power right before arriving?

But what you refuse to admit is that "being on par" when special characteristics like "unlimited stamina" are upon the table doesn't have to be the same as "having the same power".

No, I do acknowledge it. However, unlimited stamina doesn't negate superficial damage at all. Vegeta couldn't even move her with a punch in the gut and #18 is constantly shown smiling at Vegeta's pitiful efforts the entire time. That's no indication of an equal fight.

It's obvious that Vegeta was helpless against #18 because he had 0 chances of winning.

If he had 0 chances of winning, he was never in her league to begin with. And therefore, the two aren't equals. At least Piccolo was shown to have two powerful attacks that would very likely finish #17 off. Vegeta shows nothing.

On the other hand, Piccolo was a bit above #17 and that allowed him to compensate the fact that the android had unlimited stamina, thus being called "on-par" by #18.

No noticeable advantage, therefore an equal battle.

So what's Cell's reason for not only being able to knock #16 around, but also draw blood from this Android who states he has equal power to Cell? #16 only gained the upperhand when he took him off guard with his Rocket Punch. Other than that, it was an equal battle.

And going back to my example about that 2Km race, I would be helpless against a friend that can have a 10 minute advantage over me after all is said and done, and as I explained you, it could be possible for me to run as fast as him even if it's only for a few seconds, and it would've been an equal race won by him because of his superior stamina. Can't my friend say that I'm helpless against him when it comes to run? Because I think that with that kind of a difference in a 2km race, that definition of the situation would be perfect.

Your friend also could've been giving you a chance to keep up--only to turn up the heat once he realized it was no longer interesting to him. In this situation, I think the more accurate word to describe this example is "outlast" rather than surpass. Your friend was able to outlast you in a race in which you both started on equal footing.

#18 never went at him as hard as she did towards the end of the battle, that much is shown. She was enjoying herself, while Vegeta was constantly wondering if #18 was taking damage or not.

Cell was close to a SSJ level of strength, so that was of course an absurdly high amount of power. But from Cell's reaction in front of SSJ Vegeta I think it's safe to assume that he was still below him at that point, even if not by that much.

Goku can't beat Cell, so he's above Super Saiyan level. Cell was trying not to be noticed, so it makes sense for him to hide from Vegeta. Piccolo and the others weren't that far behind.

[freezamite]

Anyway, Vegeta isn't sure he can't beat #18 yet. He still think he has a chance, which is why he continues to fight. Still, it's apparent he's not sure how he's doing in the fight because he can't tell whether she's feeling his attacks or not.

But the fact that he still thinks he can beat her demonstrates that the difference between Vegeta and #18 can't be judged as if "Vegeta did his best attack and the android wasn't damaged at all".

No different than what he did to Reacoom. Reacoom tanked his blast and it did nothing but destroy his armor. What does Vegeta do after? He continues to fight until he can't.

And you're telling me that you're unable to see the difference in Vegeta's reaction when he fought against Reecoome compared to the one he has after #18 tanks his attack?
Are you seeing Vegeta smiling after seeing Reecoome resisted his attacks?
Look, this is reaching a point where it seems that any excuse is valid to justify your stance, and to say that Vegeta's reaction against Reecoome and #18 is the same one it's a straight up lie.

I've been answering to your points against my stance on this, and I had some for you regarding your stance, but please, the least you could do is not to lie.

1. Why did #17 say #18 wouldn't be able to beat all the z-warriors if they all fought against her together if she was so overwhelmingly stronger than Vegeta that even Vegeta's best attack with all his strength on it couldn't do her even a single scratch?

2. Why do you think that Trunks lies when he says that Vegeta is fighting against #18 at the same level as her?

3. Since Vegeta is Trunk's father you could argue that Trunks lied in order to defend him, but what reason had Piccolo to continue with the lie and to say that Vegeta was going to be killed because he lost energy instead of saying "the android is absolutely trouncing Vegeta without any effort because she much stronger than him"?

4. And again. Why did Vegeta react as if he still had plenty of chances of winning (with a smile on his face)? Don't tell me that this is the same reaction he had after seeing Reecoome surviving his attacks, and Reecoome was left more damaged than the android. So if the difference between the android and Vegeta was much bigger than the one between him and Reecoome, why do everyone straight up lie about that fact and why Vegeta changes his personality?

Thanks.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

But the fact that he still thinks he can beat her demonstrates that the difference between Vegeta and #18 can't be judged as if "Vegeta did his best attack and the android wasn't damaged at all".

Okay. He just used a huge Chi-blast rather than his best attack. But he was still looking to cause damage, so it was a powerful attack. Otherwise, he wouldn't admit to being annoyed over...nothing.

And you're telling me that you're unable to see the difference in Vegeta's reaction when he fought against Reecoome compared to the one he has after #18 tanks his attack?

I see the difference. I stand corrected.

1. Why did #17 say #18 wouldn't be able to beat all the z-warriors if they all fought against her together if she was so overwhelmingly stronger than Vegeta that even Vegeta's best attack with all his strength on it couldn't do her even a single scratch?

So, you conveniently skipped over the part where Vegeta said the others help was useless against #18? Vegeta stating that none of them are capable of lending assistance in the battle against #18 isn't enough to show that they're useless? Besides, I already explained that #17 had no data on them, so he wasn't sure about their power. We've already seen Freeza mention that Zarbon and Dodoria should be able to beat Vegeta if they attacked together and Vegeta was comfortably ahead of both of them individually. So no, Vegeta does not need to equal #18 in power for such a statement to be made.

2. Why do you think that Trunks lies when he says that Vegeta is fighting against #18 at the same level as her?

Because he never imagined his father was that strong? Doesn't he actually say that? Trunks can't sense #18, so he has no idea if Vegeta matches her in power, so he can only assume Vegeta is on her level because he's able to stand up to her. Also, she blocked all of his attacks while they were fighting "on-par" with each other. Once she brings up Goku being stronger than Vegeta, it's pretty clear she's no longer interested in fighting Vegeta. He punched her straight in the gut and still couldn't make her flinch. He wasn't strong enough to damage her at all.

3. Since Vegeta is Trunk's father you could argue that Trunks lied in order to defend him, but what reason had Piccolo to continue with the lie and to say that Vegeta was going to be killed because he lost energy instead of saying "the android is absolutely trouncing Vegeta without any effort because she much stronger than him"?

Nope. It's called being excited in the moment. What we see from Piccolo is nothing more than his analysis on what he's watching. He just says Vegeta, unlike #18, will go down because his energy is dropping. How is this continuing with a lie? None of them were even aware of how strong these Androids were.

4. And again. Why did Vegeta react as if he still had plenty of chances of winning (with a smile on his face)? Don't tell me that this is the same reaction he had after seeing Reecoome surviving his attacks, and Reecoome was left more damaged than the android. So if the difference between the android and Vegeta was much bigger than the one between him and Reecoome, why do everyone straight up lie about that fact and why Vegeta changes his personality?

With a smile on his face, while voicing his displeasure at #18 being able to pretend like the damage doesn't matter, you mean? But I'll admit, Vegeta was more pissed that Reacoom tanked his attack. The only real damage done was to their clothes, though. Vegeta beat up on Reacoom a good bit, but he was enjoying it the entire time.

Everyone? Oh, you mean Trunks? Because every single piece of dialogue after the battle in no way insinuates there was an equal battle between Vegeta and #18. Quite the contrary, actually. Vegeta even goes out of his way to group all of those who've surpassed the Super Saiyan together. That's pretty clear cut right there.

[some_weirdGuy]

They were holding back, they outright reveal so both in the special when they kill gohan, and when trunks returns to his own time to destroy them, and there is absolutely nothing that contradicts it as being the case. Before that I use to think it was quite likely gero just suppressed their powers more in a bid to control them, but the simpler & better substantiated explanation above works fine.


freezamite and Turlast, perhaps it's time to just... agree to disagree. You may be right Tur, but Mite is clearly not going to change his mind, so let him think whatever plot-hole inducing shenanigans he wants to, he's not harming anyone and besides, it's gotten a little excessive... ((I just scrolled past an 8 screen-height's long post for christs sake XD))


((in the words of Robert Heinlein - Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig.))

[dbgtFO]

They were holding back, they outright reveal so both in the special when they kill gohan, and when trunks returns to his own time to destroy them, and there is absolutely nothing that contradicts it as being the case. Before that I use to think it was quite likely gero just suppressed their powers more in a bid to control them, but the simpler & better substantiated explanation above works fine.

It's a bit annoying that Toriyama didn't hammer this point home. There are points, where it can be done, like when future Cell showed up.
Toriyama could have made it very clear by having #17 say: "I/we weren't even giving our all the last time I/we fought." Trunks would then realize he was wrong all along, but kill them just the same.

I think Toriyama just ended up forgetting that plot point, because it wasn't important anymore and so later events and statements and lack of them(Cell not noting a difference in power) made it seem like Trunks was wrong all along even if that might not have been the original intention.

Alternatively that statement #17 made about Trunks being their toy could be interpreted that way, though I don't know the original line.
It would also seem farfetched, that #17 or #18 were close in power to Trunks, when #18 was preparing to oneshot him, both of them thinking she could do it.