The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Kid Buu]

Piccolo Vs Nappa 1-1.

Nappa will allow Piccolo to use ONE Senzu Bean whenever he wants.

[Kamiccolo9]

Piccolo Vs Nappa 1-1.

Nappa will allow Piccolo to use ONE Senzu Bean whenever he wants.

If Piccolo could talk Nappa into taking a Makakansappo head-on, then I think he could win. Otherwise, He'll put up a good fight, and probably do some damage, but he'll lose.

[hleV]

Goku says you take control of all the chi in your body and amplify it. So I guess its a weird thing where you use chi to amplify chi, I guess chi is just that flexible. Doesn't say anything about bringing out hidden power.

Amplify means increase. So unless you're saying that SS3 does not amplify one's power because it takes that power from their hidden power reserves (which wouldn't make sense because the power increases, no matter how), I don't see how does your point prove anything.

[goku the krump dancer]

The Super Saiyan transformation and the Kaioken technique more or less have the same cause and effect, they're just activated differently.

Super Saiyan is like digging for gold while the Kaioken is like rubbing two sticks together to ignite a flame.

[KentalSSJ6]

Krillin's Kienzan VS Naruto's Rasen Shuriken.

[RandomGuy96]

The Super Saiyan transformation and the Kaioken technique more or less have the same cause and effect, they're just activated differently.

Super Saiyan is like digging for gold while the Kaioken is like rubbing two sticks together to ignite a flame.

Where is your evidence that it doesn't draw on dormant power? That it instead just randomly creates ki out of nowhere?

Also, why didn't Goku ever teach this to Gohan after the Buu Saga if it could really be used that way?

[Polyphase Avatron]

Krillin's Kienzan VS Naruto's Rasen Shuriken.

Comparing DBZ to Naruto never ends well.

[KentalSSJ6]

Krillin's Kienzan VS Naruto's Rasen Shuriken.

Comparing DBZ to Naruto never ends well.

I'm just comparing the two attacks really given how they function the same exact way, though Krillin seems to be able to fire off multiple while Naruto can control the size of his at will.

[goku the krump dancer]

The Super Saiyan transformation and the Kaioken technique more or less have the same cause and effect, they're just activated differently.

Super Saiyan is like digging for gold while the Kaioken is like rubbing two sticks together to ignite a flame.

Where is your evidence that it doesn't draw on dormant power? That it instead just randomly creates ki out of nowhere?

Also, why didn't Goku ever teach this to Gohan after the Buu Saga if it could really be used that way?

My evidence was in the picture I posted before. Almost every time Goku mentions use of the Kaioken there's always seems to be a risk involved because he doesn't know if his body can handle the pressure of using chi the way the technique does and pushing it to the next level. KK wouldn't be the risk factor that it is if Goku was aware that he had all those extra gallons power to tap into with it. A person is usually aware when they have hidden power reserves yet 1. Goku wasn't aware of the SSJ power brewing inside him during his fight with Freeza ( other wise why not just use a Kaioken times 50?) and 2. Increasing his power by 20 was such a gamble against Freeza and increasing it by 4 left him really tender against Vegeta. While tired and drained of energy, Goku never showed signs of extreme fatigue or pain while in SSJ3, which is the opposite when every he decides to push the Kaioken to the next level.

He didn't teach it to Gohan for the same reason he didn't teach him the Solar Flare, Spirit Bomb or Instant Transmission.

[Kid Buu]

Yamcha Vs Yajirobe

23rd Budokai

[hleV]

My evidence was in the picture I posted before.

There's no evidence in that picture.

Almost every time Goku mentions use of the Kaioken there's always seems to be a risk involved because he doesn't know if his body can handle the pressure of using chi the way the technique does and pushing it to the next level.

That's right, he loads extra power to his body and that has consequences.

KK wouldn't be the risk factor that it is if Goku was aware that he had all those extra gallons power to tap into with it.

What? Yes it would.

A person is usually aware when they have hidden power reserves yet 1.

Elaborate.

Goku wasn't aware of the SSJ power brewing inside him during his fight with Freeza ( other wise why not just use a Kaioken times 50?)

Goku would have probably died if he used KK50 (not saying that it's possible to use it at such levels to begin with), as it was shown that KK20 was his limit. SS transformed his body so using more power was not a problem.

Increasing his power by 20 was such a gamble against Freeza and increasing it by 4 left him really tender against Vegeta. While tired and drained of energy, Goku never showed signs of extreme fatigue or pain while in SSJ3, which is the opposite when every he decides to push the Kaioken to the next level.

Again, transformation is different from forcing more power in the same form.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Τhe way I see it, Kaio-ken, Kamehameha, etc amplify the power that the user uses, while Super Saiyan, Freeza's forms, etc draw power that the user can't normally use in their current state.

[ZombieVito]

Yamcha Vs Yajirobe

23rd Budokai

I have Yamcha at 174 and Yajirobe at 162.

Yamcha wins.

[goku the krump dancer]

So I see, KOSDH and myself share similar views on the matter but anyways

Almost every time Goku mentions use of the Kaioken there's always seems to be a risk involved because he doesn't know if his body can handle the pressure of using chi the way the technique does and pushing it to the next level.

That's right, he loads extra power to his body and that has consequences.

SSJ seems like it "loads power" to the surface of the body which triggers the transformation in the first place while Kaioken, seems more abrupt. the only time he seemingly loaded a kaioken boost was against Ginyu but thats only 'cuz unlike in the Saiyan arc he where a standard kaioken was his riskless limit, now its nothing since he trained himself to be able to use it in much higher bursts with out any repercussions.

KK wouldn't be the risk factor that it is if Goku was aware that he had all those extra gallons power to tap into with it.

What? Yes it would.

A person is usually aware when they have hidden power reserves.

Elaborate.

These to correlate to one another so i'll answer both here. If Goku was aware that he had the SSJ power brewing inside him or in other words if he was able to make himself 50x stronger he would have done so with the Kaioken but he didnt know and his limit at the time was kaioken x10.. he wasnt sure if he could pull of a increase up to 20 but he had no choice but to try it anyway.

Same with his bought with Vegeta in the saiyan arc, his limit was a standard Kaioken (a multiplier of 2), out of desperation he already started risking his health with the kaioken x3 and then four.His body just wasnt ready for it.

In the Boo arc he was well aware that he could increase his power up to 400 times of what it is in base form but due to the circumstances and him underestimating Boo he held back some against Vegeta. Now if he could increase his power that much why not do it with kaioken? Well because like you said his normal body wouldn't be able to handle it. I agree with your assertion that SSJ provides a saiyan with a more capable body of holding all that power but what separates it from kaioken is that its more stable like you said and brings out the tucked away power while the kaioken sorta "breaks the laws" of chi management and when pushed too far, becomes unstable because it uses the chi your currently using and makes it amplify itself.

Now where does my ideology come from? Its pretty much just how I interpret the technique to work, just like your is. Unless theres a guide book statement that I missed saying the Kaioken draws out hidden power, its pretty much up in the air.

[hleV]

I think the fact that Goku never used a 10x KK (which he could easily do against Freeza, without much strain on his body) as a SS (after he mastered the form to feel like it's his normal state) pretty much blows the theory of KK getting ki out of nowhere away. SS isn't just better than KK in general, SS is a better way of doing the same. Otherwise they could, and would, be stacked. The most plausible reason for why KK was never mentioned again since the introduction of SS transformation to me is that SS replaces KK, literally. So if SS is a 50x multiplier, it's already above KK's 20x multiplier limit, so KK is less than half as good as SS, not counting the damage it deals to the user. Both SS and KK amplify one's power, both take that power from the same source, one does it much better than the other.
You can't get more power out of nowhere, unless it's a magical/special technique. KK is a ki manipulation technique. One can't manipulate ki to suddenly make it a bunch of times bigger, it doesn't make any sense. One can, however, dig their ki reserves to access more power that normally wouldn't be accessible. A similar discussion from some time ago.

[Kaboom]

I figure the Kaio-Ken more or less does the same thing to your ki that big attacks do. It focuses and amplifies it to multiply your battle power, but there's some sort of "trick" to it that allows it to happen instantly and in specific intervals. Daizenshuu #7 does seem to use the term "amplify" in its description of the technique. So it's not really tapping into hidden reserves OR somehow creating power out of nowhere. It's just taking the power you already have and manipulating it. But forcing your ki to be amplified to such extreme levels obviously brings some serious side effects with it.


Anyway, this little side-topic has gone on a bit too long. If we want to continue talking about how the Kaio-Ken works, maybe someone should create a new thread to pick up wherever we've left off here.

[The Monkey King]

Base BoG Goku vs King Cold.

[KentalSSJ6]

Base BoG Goku vs King Cold.

Has Goku already gone through the SSJG ritual?

[RandomGuy96]

An even fight. I think Goku eventually takes it due to skillz.

[ZombieVito]

Base BoG Goku vs King Cold.

I can't believe it but I have them as equals.

90 million. Goku takes this by using Kaioken or by skill alone.