How fast is Goku?

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:15 pm

If Goku could move at lightspeed, touching the ground while moving that fast would release an explosion more powerful than a space shuttle launch.

Kamiccolo9 · Post by **Kamiccolo9** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:41 pm

Piccolo was unable to dodge Dabura's spit. Obviously, the spit is faster than light then.

But wait, Kaioshin was able to shout "Hey! Watch out for that spit!" In the time between Dabura spitting and Piccolo being hit. Is Kaioshin shouting at the speed of light now?

Post by **VegettoEX** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:43 pm

flashback0180, I've deleted your entire post because it was filled to the brim with horrible/illegal scanlations of the manga, links to bootleg sites, etc. and there was absolutely zero way to clean it up beyond simply demolishing it.

Please review the forum rules.

Kakarot88 · Post by **Kakarot88** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:54 pm

Rocketman wrote:If Goku could move at lightspeed, touching the ground while moving that fast would release an explosion more powerful than a space shuttle launch.

And flying on Kinto-un at Mach 50 would rip off Bulma's skin...rationalize it as Goku's ki aura even protected her and prevents such absurdity...ki is metaphhysical and beyond our physical realm let alone understanding...Ki solves all problems. (see Daizenshu 4 and 7 comparing the speed of Arale and Kinto-Un's top speed at Mach 50).

And theoretically nothing can go faster than light speed, you really think our physical realm limits Goku who can travel between Heaven and Hell on a whim?
In the Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume, Toriyama specifically discusses physically limitations of the body and how Ki allows one to transcend those.
Heck, Goku surpassed his physical Saiyan limitations on the way to Namek.

valfranx · Post by **valfranx** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:29 pm

Kakarot88 wrote:
Rocketman wrote:If Goku could move at lightspeed, touching the ground while moving that fast would release an explosion more powerful than a space shuttle launch.
And flying on Kinto-un at Mach 50 would rip off Bulma's skin...rationalize it as Goku's ki aura even protected her and prevents such absurdity...ki is metaphhysical and beyond our physical realm let alone understanding...Ki solves all problems. (see Daizenshu 4 and 7 comparing the speed of Arale and Kinto-Un's top speed at Mach 50).

And theoretically nothing can go faster than light speed, you really think our physical realm limits Goku who can travel between Heaven and Hell on a whim?
In the Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume, Toriyama specifically discusses physically limitations of the body and how Ki allows one to transcend those.
Heck, Goku surpassed his physical Saiyan limitations on the way to Namek.

in accordance with the "dbgt perfect files 2": ki = spiritual energy:

kamehameha:
and the fatal blow most famous in series dragon ball! and an attack of concentrated spiritual energy. expert in chi launching this blow can control this mass of energy even after it has been launched.

Here's a better definition for what would be ki / spiritual energy, this explains why users ki, are not subject to the laws of physics.

Spoiler:

I found an interesting curiosity about spiritual energy, which explains because can kill immortal beings and beings not physical.

Spoiler:

RandomGuy96 · Post by **RandomGuy96** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:50 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:Piccolo was unable to dodge Dabura's spit. Obviously, the spit is faster than light then.

But wait, Kaioshin was able to shout "Hey! Watch out for that spit!" In the time between Dabura spitting and Piccolo being hit. Is Kaioshin shouting at the speed of light now?

Piccolo's beam managed to reach the moon faster than light at the start of the saiyan saga and he was immeasurably weaker than Dabra and Gohan are now. So obviously Dabra has FTL spitting skills.

Also, no one ever likes to bring up that quote from the Buu Saga where Gohan says his casual travel speed in base form is only 50 kilometers per minute. Which Google tells me would only be 1,864 MPH, or 3,000 kilometers per hour. Which is... not fast enough when compared to Saiyan Saga Goku.

Kamiccolo9 · Post by **Kamiccolo9** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:15 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Piccolo was unable to dodge Dabura's spit. Obviously, the spit is faster than light then.

But wait, Kaioshin was able to shout "Hey! Watch out for that spit!" In the time between Dabura spitting and Piccolo being hit. Is Kaioshin shouting at the speed of light now?
Piccolo's beam managed to reach the moon faster than light at the start of the saiyan saga and he was immeasurably weaker than Dabra and Gohan are now. So obviously Dabra has FTL spitting skills.

He needs to go on the road with that. Forget ruling the demon realm; those are some mad carny skills.

The Monkey King · Post by **The Monkey King** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:26 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:Piccolo was unable to dodge Dabura's spit. Obviously, the spit is faster than light then.

But wait, Kaioshin was able to shout "Hey! Watch out for that spit!" In the time between Dabura spitting and Piccolo being hit. Is Kaioshin shouting at the speed of light now?

I'm not quite sure what I make of Dabra having FTL spit

But Kaioshin's talking doesn't really discredit the claim:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... FreeAction

Kamiccolo9 · Post by **Kamiccolo9** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:39 pm

The Monkey King wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Piccolo was unable to dodge Dabura's spit. Obviously, the spit is faster than light then.

But wait, Kaioshin was able to shout "Hey! Watch out for that spit!" In the time between Dabura spitting and Piccolo being hit. Is Kaioshin shouting at the speed of light now?
I'm not quite sure what I make of Dabra having FTL spit
But Kaioshin's talking doesn't really discredit the claim:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... FreeAction

I don't see why that matters. Everyone else is taking throwaway lines way too literally and applying insane, tortured mathematical formulas to a comic book. Why can't I have fun? FTL Spit FTW!

Polyphase Avatron · Post by **Polyphase Avatron** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:18 pm

So bottom line: It's inconsistent. Which is really just to be expected.

Kakarot88 · Post by **Kakarot88** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:53 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:So bottom line: It's inconsistent. Which is really just to be expected.

The story is one of progression. The author ups the ante each time, Goku gets faster from the begining to the end. Take him dodging bullets as (or at least tanking bullets as early as chapter one) during the red ribbon arc and go from there

mmg86 · Post by **mmg86** » Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:39 am

Kakarot88 wrote: The story is one of progression. The author ups the ante each time, Goku gets faster from the begining to the end. Take him dodging bullets as (or at least tanking bullets as early as chapter one) during the red ribbon arc and go from there

Well, yeah, but the problem is that it goes both ways. Since Goku (and everyone else) is supposed to be faster and faster as the story goes on, then one could easily say "Gohan can only go at Mach 2.5 in base... Saiyan Saga Goku is not even close to him... so this means Snake Way was not even close to the 1 million km long it was said to be..."

Or "Roshi catches bullets, which should require him to be capable of moving at roughly the speed of sound... uh, his fight against Krillin aint quite Mach 1... his 100 meter dash is waaaay slower than Mach 1, and i doubt he powered up all that much between then and the 21st Budokai... DB guns must fire bullets that are much, much slower than their real life counterparts, i guess".

The point I'm trying to make (and yes, i know this is In-Universe Discussion... but i just dont know how else to put it), is that, while there is a chain of progressively faster (or slower, if you make your way backwards through the manga hahaha) characters, how fast any of them can move isnt fixed. The story never flat out said "the average Saiyan could reach speeds of Mach 5", or anything of the sort, so our understanding of speed in the manga has to change to reflect the arc we are reading at the time.

As a final example, think about this. Imagine if in the Buu Saga, Super Buu said "I can destroy this planet in a single blast!", and everyone reacted with disbelief. If even Piccolo said "Impossible! Such power cant exist! Nobody can be that strong!". Freezer destroyed Planet Vegeta and Namek, you say, that cant be right, there is something weird in all this! Nonetheless, we would have to update our understanding of how powerful DB energy projection is to "characters below Super Buu cannot planet bust".

Kakarot88 · Post by **Kakarot88** » Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:09 am

mmg86 wrote:
Kakarot88 wrote: The story is one of progression. The author ups the ante each time, Goku gets faster from the begining to the end. Take him dodging bullets as (or at least tanking bullets as early as chapter one) during the red ribbon arc and go from there
Well, yeah, but the problem is that it goes both ways. Since Goku (and everyone else) is supposed to be faster and faster as the story goes on, then one could easily say "Gohan can only go at Mach 2.5 in base... Saiyan Saga Goku is not even close to him... so this means Snake Way was not even close to the 1 million km long it was said to be..."

Or "Roshi catches bullets, which should require him to be capable of moving at roughly the speed of sound... uh, his fight against Krillin aint quite Mach 1... his 100 meter dash is waaaay slower than Mach 1, and i doubt he powered up all that much between then and the 21st Budokai... DB guns must fire bullets that are much, much slower than their real life counterparts, i guess".

The point I'm trying to make (and yes, i know this is In-Universe Discussion... but i just dont know how else to put it), is that, while there is a chain of progressively faster (or slower, if you make your way backwards through the manga hahaha) characters, how fast any of them can move isnt fixed. The story never flat out said "the average Saiyan could reach speeds of Mach 5", or anything of the sort, so our understanding of speed in the manga has to change to reflect the arc we are reading at the time.

As a final example, think about this. Imagine if in the Buu Saga, Super Buu said "I can destroy this planet in a single blast!", and everyone reacted with disbelief. If even Piccolo said "Impossible! Such power cant exist! Nobody can be that strong!". Freezer destroyed Planet Vegeta and Namek, you say, that cant be right, there is something weird in all this! Nonetheless, we would have to update our understanding of how powerful DB energy projection is to "characters below Super Buu cannot planet bust".

Not sure your right about your Piccolo statement, if you have a page or chapter number that'd be helpful seeing as how Piccolo constantly said fat boo could destroy the planet instantly if it pleased him.

Piccolo kept up with Kinto-un, no effort with weighted clothing to go with Goku and fight Raditz when Kinto-un was flying all out. So, I honestly just cannot see your point. Especially because shunkan ido is instant.

Yes that would make Roshi as fast as bullets in bursts. He, moving laterally and fighting moves clearly move at absurdly fast speeds. The people at a race track can see cars moving at 200mph but cannot see the moves of those in the tournament. His traverse speed is much slower. Time and again Dragon Ball emphasizes this hence why shunkan ido is like the end all be all for Mr. Never on Time always late to the Battle Son Goku.

mmg86 · Post by **mmg86** » Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:08 am

No no, there is no such Piccolo statement. It was just an example i was giving of how we have to react when a stronger character is performing below the level of a supposedly weaker one, nothing more.

And i must insist that there is no such thing as DB characters "being fast in bursts". If that were the case why would their speed decrease (and massively so) after moving for only a fraction of a second? And why couldnt they simply start another burst the very instant the previous one ends? Keep in mind that answering something like "they run out of stamina after a single burst" would mean that pretty much any fresh character would be able to run circles around anyone who has used superspeed recently, no matter how large the power gap.

And the Kintoun example, you say that because some databook claims it can reach Mach 50, or something of the sort, right? Yet (going from memory here) Buu Saga Gohan ditched it because it was too slow... and proceeded to fly at Mach 2.5...

The Monkey King · Post by **The Monkey King** » Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:26 am

An in universe explanation for Gohan going so slow (in comparison to Tao and saiyan saga Goku) is that he was cruising, no?
Anyway Gohan actually flew at mach 1.5 after ditching the Kinto'un which makes no sense since it's mach 1.5

Kakarot88 · Post by **Kakarot88** » Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:37 am

mmg86 wrote:No no, there is no such Piccolo statement. It was just an example i was giving of how we have to react when a stronger character is performing below the level of a supposedly weaker one, nothing more.

And i must insist that there is no such thing as DB characters "being fast in bursts". If that were the case why would their speed decrease (and massively so) after moving for only a fraction of a second? And why couldnt they simply start another burst the very instant the previous one ends? Keep in mind that answering something like "they run out of stamina after a single burst" would mean that pretty much any fresh character would be able to run circles around anyone who has used superspeed recently, no matter how large the power gap.

And the Kintoun example, you say that because some databook claims it can reach Mach 50, or something of the sort, right? Yet (going from memory here) Buu Saga Gohan ditched it because it was too slow... and proceeded to fly at Mach 2.5...

Uhhhh yeah they do talk about bursts see (just to name 2 examples off the top of my head) Goku versus captain Ginyu and Piccolo versus Dr. Gero

Spoiler:

SO yeah they absolutely fight in bursts...

The Monkey King wrote:An in universe explanation for Gohan going so slow (in comparison to Tao and saiyan saga Goku) is that he was cruising, no?
Anyway Gohan actually flew at mach 1.5 after ditching the Kinto'un which makes no sense since it's mach 1.5

You just gave Gohan's in universe in the manga and anime's explanation and disregard it in the same breath lol he literally says to the effect that is his flying speed if he's not trying. And again, the warrior's fight in bursts please see above.

TenshiGokuu · Post by **TenshiGokuu** » Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:01 am

Darkprince410 wrote:Take into account though that, traveling at arguably max speed, it still took Goku with a battle power of over 8,000 over a day to reach Enma's after leaving Kaiou's planet. That's over a day for less than a million kilometers, given that we know that Serpent Road is a million kilometers long, and Goku was traveling in a straight light, bypassing many of the coils, and therefore bypassing portions of that million.

Just for the sake of a range, let's say that he bypassed 50% of the distance in 24 hours (I know it was more than 24, but let's work with that).

That puts him at 20,833.33 (repeating) km/hr, or only about 5.8 km/sec. Assuming that the air in the afterlife is of the same normal temperature and density as that on Earth (Goku, when alive, didn't seem to have any issues with it), sound would likely travel at about 1,234 kilometers/hr, or 0.3 km/sec.

That would put Goku at roughly 19 times the speed of sound with that estimate, but still well short of the speed of light, which is approximately 300,000 km/sec. He would need to be traveling over 51,000 times faster, given that estimate, in order to be able to travel at the speed of light, which would require a battle power (assuming a linear progression in speed) of over 410,000,000.

As said though, it took him over a day's time, and it's hard to say just how much of the one million kilometers he bypassed by going in a straight line rather than following each coil, so it's very possible that he traveled even less than half.

Regardless, it's safe to say that he's nowhere near the speed of light, let alone exceeding it, in Dragonball.

I think its about right. but also goku was massively underpowered at that time lacking the skill to fly, meaning that he could only either jump or run.
It would have also taken kid goku post roshi training 93 seconds to run 5 killiometers. and goku power,speed and durability is unmatched to anything he ever was before.

TenshiGokuu · Post by **TenshiGokuu** » Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:38 am

I'm going to tell you this right now, nobody in dbz show can move at speeds of light not until only the newest dbz movie that came out where we see bills and goku in ssj god fight.
lets see first how fast was goku in his base mode? we know that he would be moving at about 522km per second at the 100 gravity post training while in base mode. if then goku decided to becomes super saiyan 3 he would be moving at around 208,800 km per second. that still not even light speed, because light speed goes at 300,000 km per second, now if we take super saiyan god goku, he is apparently 10 percent weaker than bills who effortlessly defeat ssj3 goku with 2 hits and solo'ed ultimate gohan with only 1 percent of his power, it would mean that for goku to be able to fight bills on par of his level, he would need to become atleast hundred times stronger than what he is in super saiyan 3 mode if not beyond to keep up with bills, in terms of speed, strength and durability, that means that super saiyan god goku has speed of proximate of 20,880,000 km per second. making him 70 times faster than the speed of light, but keep in might this is if your thinking logically. In the movie it kinda made sence because we do see him completely dissapear in the athmosphere while fighting bills from far away distance. that means he was moving at flash instants speeds .000000000124943 seconds

Darkprince410 · Post by **Darkprince410** » Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:10 am

TenshiGokuu wrote:
Darkprince410 wrote:Take into account though that, traveling at arguably max speed, it still took Goku with a battle power of over 8,000 over a day to reach Enma's after leaving Kaiou's planet. That's over a day for less than a million kilometers, given that we know that Serpent Road is a million kilometers long, and Goku was traveling in a straight light, bypassing many of the coils, and therefore bypassing portions of that million.

Just for the sake of a range, let's say that he bypassed 50% of the distance in 24 hours (I know it was more than 24, but let's work with that).

That puts him at 20,833.33 (repeating) km/hr, or only about 5.8 km/sec. Assuming that the air in the afterlife is of the same normal temperature and density as that on Earth (Goku, when alive, didn't seem to have any issues with it), sound would likely travel at about 1,234 kilometers/hr, or 0.3 km/sec.

That would put Goku at roughly 19 times the speed of sound with that estimate, but still well short of the speed of light, which is approximately 300,000 km/sec. He would need to be traveling over 51,000 times faster, given that estimate, in order to be able to travel at the speed of light, which would require a battle power (assuming a linear progression in speed) of over 410,000,000.

As said though, it took him over a day's time, and it's hard to say just how much of the one million kilometers he bypassed by going in a straight line rather than following each coil, so it's very possible that he traveled even less than half.

Regardless, it's safe to say that he's nowhere near the speed of light, let alone exceeding it, in Dragonball.
I think its about right. but also goku was massively underpowered at that time lacking the skill to fly, meaning that he could only either jump or run.
It would have also taken kid goku post roshi training 93 seconds to run 5 killiometers. and goku power,speed and durability is unmatched to anything he ever was before.

I don't get what you mean by him lacking the skill to fly. he was perfectly capable of doing so during his fight with Piccolo, and though he chose to use the Kinto-un afterwards until the end of the Saiya-jin Saga, it was moreso for conserving ki for the sake of battle rather than because he lacked the capability or refinement to. On his return trip from Kaiou's to Enma's (which is where my calculations were made), he started off running, but then when he realized that he needed to push it, he's shown flying.

dbzfan7 · Post by **dbzfan7** » Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:52 pm

Whatever the hell Toriyama wants.

Kanzenshuu

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