Viz's Print Edition of the "Full Colour Comics" Discussion

[Duo]

You actually think those changes bother Toriyama in the slightest or at least enough to actually tell them "no"?

Also, Djinn is perfectly valid and correct for "majin", as it has been discussed and stated many times, including by Herms.

So I disagree with Herms then. Gasp? Djinn isn't "inaccurate" as much as "unnecessary bullshit". Swapping one foreign term for another, just cuz'.

The explanation that he doesn't particularly care (Toriyama-sensei) is valid, but that doesn't mean those are changes he would ever adapt into a story he himself was writing. We have an official "real" name for Mr. Satan, and it's Mark. By basic logic that discards the Viz' alternative utterly.

[Fizzer]

The problem I have is with lines like "Five years after the events recounted in 'Dragon Ball'...".

For the US, it mostly works though. The events in "Dragon Ball" not are in "Dragon Ball Z", nor are they a part of "Dragon Ball Full Color" for the time being. The only real argument to be made for that line being redundant is in the 3-in-1 editions.

It's particularly bad if it sticks in the 3-in-1s, especially since it will be half way through a volume. It's also worse if they do end up releasing the earlier arcs in full colour.

So I disagree with Herms then. Gasp? Djinn isn't "inaccurate" as much as "unnecessary bullshit". Swapping one foreign term for another, just cuz'.

I think more people in the West are familiar with "Djinn", whereas nobody has really heard of a "majin" outside of Dragon Ball. It's the same with changing "ki" to "chi". It's something that carries the same meaning and can't be considered censorship, it's less Japanese but it's for the sake of people having very slightly more understanding. It's something that people have already kind of heard of, rather than something completely new to them. I kind of get it, but you're right that it's unnecessary.

[Duo]

The biggest problem I have is that it's implementing that change for an audience that has known the character as "Majin Buu" for years. I'd say FUNImations DBZ brought that term into being more known in the west than Djinn currently is. I had no idea what that word meant when I first read it in the Viz manga. Now if they went with "Genie" I would actually see that as a more valid case for giving the western audience more understanding of the concept.

[Fizzer]

The biggest problem I have is that it's implementing that change for an audience that has known the character as "Majin Buu" for years. I'd say FUNImations DBZ brought that term into being more known in the west than Djinn currently is. I had no idea what that word meant when I first read it in the Viz manga. Now if they went with "Genie" I would actually see that as a more valid case for giving the western audience more understanding of the concept.

The issue with Genie is that it has largely positive connotations, unlike djinn. I'd heard of djinn before. If I had to choose, I'd say always go with the authentic version, just like with the DB/Z issue. They did that because fans are familiar with the split from the anime, but it's incorrect.

[Duo]

Strongly agreed. That said, I tend to focus on name changes more because they have to be read over and over and over in the manga. The throwaway line opening up "DBZ Volume 1" saying it's been five years since the events of Dragon Ball is dumb (especially in this full color release), but at least I only have to see it once.

[Fizzer]

The split is one of my biggest pet peeves, because I feel it affects the way people view the story. People see "volume 1" and buy it, but you can't fully appreciate DBZ without the context of the earlier parts of the story. For example, Goku and Piccolo teaming up to fight Raditz in that volume has pretty much no impact on someone who just started reading. It's the same with the revelation that Goku is an alien, the Ozaru stuff, and Piccolo's change of heart, then things later on like the Red Ribbon Army background of the Cell arc. It's also pretty weird that there are just all these unexplained super-strong guys who know God and speak casually of the magic wish-granting Dragon Balls. If Toriyama had written two separate mangas and intended Z as a stand-alone sequel, it would be different, not just because "author's wishes", but because Z would have then been written differently.

[Duo]

The split is one of my biggest pet peeves, because I feel it affects the way people view the story. People see "volume 1" and buy it, but you can't fully appreciate DBZ without the context of the earlier parts of the story. For example, Goku and Piccolo teaming up to fight Raditz in that volume has pretty much no impact on someone who just started reading. It's the same with the revelation that Goku is an alien, the Ozaru stuff, and Piccolo's change of heart, then things later on like the Red Ribbon Army background of the Cell arc. It's also pretty weird that there are just all these unexplained super-strong guys who know God and speak casually of the magic wish-granting Dragon Balls. If Toriyama had written two separate mangas and intended Z as a stand-alone sequel, it would be different, not just because "author's wishes", but because Z would have then been written differently.

I agree, but I guess I'm just very used to it. It's too bad this is now the trend in even Japan, with the way the physical Full Colors were released.

[Fizzer]

I agree, but I guess I'm just very used to it. It's too bad this is now the trend in even Japan, with the way the physical Full Colors were released.

Yeah, it seems like we're heading backwards. I guess it does make sense from a financial point of view, just not a story-telling one. It's probably less of an issue in Japan, as I get the impression that Dragon Ball is so famous their that nobody could make the mistake of thinking that DBZ came first or anything, but it's still annoying.

[Duo]

I agree, but I guess I'm just very used to it. It's too bad this is now the trend in even Japan, with the way the physical Full Colors were released.

Yeah, it seems like we're heading backwards. I guess it does make sense from a financial point of view, just not a story-telling one. It's probably less of an issue in Japan, as I get the impression that Dragon Ball is so famous their that nobody could make the mistake of thinking that DBZ came first or anything, but it's still annoying.

What bothers me a ton actually is that the 23rd Tenka'ichi Budokai didn't get lumped in with Z. That cut off makes more sense to me because there's the notable physical change for all the characters and so on. That's where the "new era" starts. This would also frame the Piccolo Daimao fight as the climax of "Dragon Ball". I still prefer the whole series as a single entity, but that's a realistic change I wish had taken place.

[rereboy]

You actually think those changes bother Toriyama in the slightest or at least enough to actually tell them "no"?

Also, Djinn is perfectly valid and correct for "majin", as it has been discussed and stated many times, including by Herms.

So I disagree with Herms then. Gasp? Djinn isn't "inaccurate" as much as "unnecessary bullshit". Swapping one foreign term for another, just cuz'.

The explanation that he doesn't particularly care (Toriyama-sensei) is valid, but that doesn't mean those are changes he would ever adapt into a story he himself was writing. We have an official "real" name for Mr. Satan, and it's Mark. By basic logic that discards the Viz' alternative utterly.

Djinn is a more familiar term to the general western and american audience than Majin. Just because you didn't hear it before you heard Majin it doesn't make it any less true.

Genie is even more well known but it has other connotations.

So, being that Djinn is a correct and a valid translation of Majin, and since Viz's job is to actually translate and adapt the dialog to the english language, I don't see any real problem. I think you just probably have a personal dislike for that term giving that you were used to Majin and not used to Djinn at all, which is not a very powerful argument to objectively criticize Viz's choice.

[Duo]

Do you have any objective proof that a significant volume of the western population is familiar with the word Djinn?

Djinn is not an English word. How can you claim that to be an English adaption when it's no more English than the word Majin?

[MagicBox]

What bothers me a ton actually is that the 23rd Tenka'ichi Budokai didn't get lumped in with Z. That cut off makes more sense to me because there's the notable physical change for all the characters and so on. That's where the "new era" starts. This would also frame the Piccolo Daimao fight as the climax of "Dragon Ball". I still prefer the whole series as a single entity, but that's a realistic change I wish had taken place.

I can't believe I'd never thought about this before, but that really makes a lot of sense. If the 23rd tournament had been part of "Z," then we'd actually have gotten some inkling as to why Goku and Piccolo's team-up for Raditz was a big deal. We'd have gotten to see "human" Goku for a little bit, thus giving the "twist" that he's an alien a little more impact. ChiChi's introduction would have been a little awkward (ChiChi: "Remember that girl you met when you were little?" Audience: "... No?"), but that's not too big a deal. The only issue I can think of is that the time between Piccolo Daimao's defeat and the 23rd Tournament isn't very exciting. That wouldn't be a very good ending. Goku's up training with Mister Popo... The End. But they could have come up with some filler to give the whole thing some closure.

Er... colored manga. Right.

Very excited for this release! While I am satisfied with the majority of Viz's translation, little things like the "five years after the events from Dragon Ball..." lines really do show just how desperately some parts need revising. Viz's translation was a godsend back when we only had the edited Saiyan Saga dub, but it's very dated today.

[Dbzfan94]

You actually think those changes bother Toriyama in the slightest or at least enough to actually tell them "no"?

Also, Djinn is perfectly valid and correct for "majin", as it has been discussed and stated many times, including by Herms.

So I disagree with Herms then. Gasp? Djinn isn't "inaccurate" as much as "unnecessary bullshit". Swapping one foreign term for another, just cuz'.

The explanation that he doesn't particularly care (Toriyama-sensei) is valid, but that doesn't mean those are changes he would ever adapt into a story he himself was writing. We have an official "real" name for Mr. Satan, and it's Mark. By basic logic that discards the Viz' alternative utterly.

Djinn is a more familiar term to the general western and american audience than Majin. Just because you didn't hear it before you heard Majin it doesn't make it any less true.

Genie is even more well known but it has other connotations.

So, being that Djinn is a correct and a valid translation of Majin, and since Viz's job is to actually translate and adapt the dialog to the english language, I don't see any real problem. I think you just probably have a personal dislike for that term giving that you were used to Majin and not used to Djinn at all, which is not a very powerful argument to objectively criticize Viz's choice.

I never heard the word Djinn before I read the Viz translation...then again, I never heard Majin before DBZ either.

[Duo]

I never heard the word Djinn before I read the Viz translation...then again, I never heard Majin before DBZ either.

That is a totally fair point, however the English audience actually had already heard "Majin" established in the FUNImation dub, therefore it comes off as just going against the grain for the sake of going against the grain, instead of earlier differences from FUNImation (Kuririn, Kaio) which were for the sake of accuracy.

And didn't Viz use Android anyway? That was pretty silly as well, in retrospect.

[rereboy]

Do you have any objective proof that a significant volume of the western population is familiar with the word Djinn?

Djinn is not an English word. How can you claim that to be an English adaption when it's no more English than the word Majin?

Sure. For example, I remember the term being used in the tv show "I dream of Jeannie", I think there is a character referred to as Blue Djinn. And that show is from the sixties. A more recent example are the "wishmaster" horror movies, in which the monster is referred to as a Djinn. In the TV show "supernatural" there is also a monster referred to as Djinn. I also recall from the comic book "Fables" (that I own) that the genie that appears at one point is referred to as a Djinn.

Those are just a few examples that I can think of. I'm pretty sure there are much more. As you can see, you can find the term fairly easily in western / american products.

How about Majin, besides Dragon Ball? Pretty much non-existing.

And not to forget that Djinn / Jinn / Genie are basically the same thing. Djinn is just used to keep the disney type connotations at bay. Otherwise its just basically another way to spell / refer to something.

As for my "claim"... My claim is that the term is already used in various american products, movies, comic books without any trouble. Just because a certain term or word is not originally from the english language, it doesn't mean that several foreign terms aren't adopted all the time by languages worldwide. "Gesundheit" is german in origin and americans use it in their language.

[Duo]

I was look for something more along the lines of a poll, which I don't suppose would be easy for you to accomplish. I simply think you're giving the term too much credit for how well it's known.

Again, taking the FUNImation example into play, almost anybody who picks up the Viz manga (even ten years ago) would have known the term "Majin" already. That audience knows that term. There's also a lack of internal consistency because terms such as Kaio and Kikoho had been used abundantly with simple footnotes explaining the term. Why was this practice suddenly shunned away from?

[Puto]

And didn't Viz use Android anyway? That was pretty silly as well, in retrospect.

Android is exactly what jinzōningen means. They were absolutely in the right there.

[rereboy]

I was look for something more along the lines of a poll, which I don't suppose would be easy for you to accomplish. I simply think you're giving the term too much credit for how well it's known.

I just gave you plenty of examples of the term being in use and easy to find in american pop culture. And you continue to argue like Viz actually did something wrong in using that term instead of Majin...

I get it, you don't like it. You are free to not like it. But all I said was that Viz did nothing wrong and that there is nothing objectively wrong with their choice, even if you personally don't like it. That's all. And I think that I demonstrated that pretty effectively.

[Duo]

I get it, you don't like it. You are free to not like it. But all I said was that Viz did nothing wrong and that there is nothing objectively wrong with their choice, even if you personally don't like it. That's all. And I think that I demonstrated that pretty effectively.

But I never said that "Djinn" was wrong, just unnecessary. I've demonstrated pretty effectively, in light of the fan base and culture surrounding Dragon Ball, that the change simply didn't need to be made.

Android is exactly what jinzōningen means. They were absolutely in the right there.

Not quite. It comes out as "Artificial Human". Android means mechanical with a human appearance, which isn't true in the case of numerous creations made by Dr. Gero. Android is true for #8, #16, and #19, not the rest we see in the manga.

[B]

But "jinzouningen" is the catch-all term Japan uses for "android." The discrepancy that 17 and 18 are part human, or "cyborgs," is Toriyama's.