Viz's Print Edition of the "Full Colour Comics" Discussion

[Duo]

But "jinzouningen" is the catch-all term Japan uses for "android." The discrepancy that 17 and 18 are part human, or "cyborgs," is Toriyama's.

Just because they use it as a "catch all" doesn't mean it maintains the same definition as the English word for Android. Perhaps I'm crazy for thinking Steven Simmons translated the term differently for a reason.

[B]

Just because they use it as a "catch all" doesn't mean it maintains the same definition as the English word for Android.

That's... what I... said? Yes, you're right, it is wrong. Toriyama is the guy you want to talk to.

[Makaioshin]

Not quite. It comes out as "Artificial Human". Android means mechanical with a human appearance, which isn't true in the case of numerous creations made by Dr. Gero. Android is true for #8, #16, and #19, not the rest we see in the manga.

This doesn't have much to do with the topic at hand but #8 is said to have a human-base in the Daizenshuu. He eats and sleeps in the comic and there is also that whole Frankenstein monster thing he has going.

[Duo]

Just because they use it as a "catch all" doesn't mean it maintains the same definition as the English word for Android.

That's... what I... said? Yes, you're right, it is wrong. Toriyama is the guy you want to talk to.

I, well piss, didn't mean to make that sound redundant. I thought you were saying jinzouningen means android in Japanese and that Toriyama-sensei misused the term. Am I wrong?

[rereboy]

But I never said that "Djinn" was wrong, just unnecessary. I've demonstrated pretty effectively, in light of the fan base and culture surrounding Dragon Ball, that the change simply didn't need to be made.

You are criticizing Viz for a translation/adaptation that is correct and adequate, when its their job to just that, because you would prefer the term to be left without any translation/adaptation.

Not very logical.

I get it that you would prefer it, but criticize Viz for it? Er...

Not quite. It comes out as "Artificial Human". Android means mechanical with a human appearance, which isn't true in the case of numerous creations made by Dr. Gero. Android is true for #8, #16, and #19, not the rest we see in the manga.

The literal translation is android. Toriyama just called them all androids even if technically some of them should be cyborgs.

"Artificial human" is both an alternative to android and something that can, depending on the interpretation, also be used to refer to cyborgs and other stuff. That's probably why some translations use that term, a sort of adaptation.

Both are correct and are adequate.

[bkev]

On the "android" discussion: for what it's worth, when they serialized Z monthly almost 10 years ago, they always said in the bio snippets "technically, they're cyborgs." So there's that. I would imagine all the graphic novels had the same kind of clarification.

Here's hoping Hercule is gone for this, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Duo]

You are criticizing Viz for a translation/adaptation that is correct and adequate, when its their job to just that, because you would prefer the term to be left without any translation/adaptation.

Not very logical.

What's illogical about the belief that as many original terms should be preserved as possible in order to maintain consistency between versions? You're escalating this a bit much now.

The literal translation is android. Toriyama just called them all androids even if technically some of them should be cyborgs.

"Artificial human" is both an alternative to android and something that can, depending on the interpretation, also be used to refer to cyborgs and other stuff. That's probably why some translations use that term, a sort of adaptation.

Both are correct and are adequate.

I disagree on a descriptive basis. Artificial Human is a more effective blanket term for that batch of characters. Android is a slightly lazy shorthand.

I'd also prefer somebody with a proven background in Japanese weigh (or be properly sourced/cited) in on the translation of "jinzouningen" before anybody goes declaring what's an accurate translation or not.

You seem like you're just trying to hit back against everything I consider slightly distasteful about the Viz translation. Do you have a defense for the change of Mr. Satan's name? Or "The Jiggler" in Dragon Ball? Or any of the various oddities that show up in the Majin Buu arc of the Viz manga in general?

On the "android" discussion: for what it's worth, when they serialized Z monthly almost 10 years ago, they always said in the bio snippets "technically, they're cyborgs." So there's that. I would imagine all the graphic novels had the same kind of clarification.

Here's hoping (the H-word) is gone for this, but I'm not holding my breath.

You're right. I forgot about that. I think that's why I never honed in on that subject in the past. It's been a while since I cracked open any of the Viz volumes.

[linkdude20002001]

For what it's worth, Denshi Jisho translates jinzouningen as "robot; cyborg".

[Super Sonic]

With the name changes, you know Marvel and DC characters' names get changed in France and Mexico right? So I'd assume it happens in Japan so...

[Duo]

Not quite. It comes out as "Artificial Human". Android means mechanical with a human appearance, which isn't true in the case of numerous creations made by Dr. Gero. Android is true for #8, #16, and #19, not the rest we see in the manga.

This doesn't have much to do with the topic at hand but #8 is said to have a human-base in the Daizenshuu. He eats and sleeps in the comic and there is also that whole Frankenstein monster thing he has going.

Wow! I had no idea about that. Thanks for the corrective tidbit

[usotsuki]

Android is exactly what jinzōningen means. They were absolutely in the right there.

Not quite. It comes out as "Artificial Human". Android means mechanical with a human appearance, which isn't true in the case of numerous creations made by Dr. Gero. Android is true for #8, #16, and #19, not the rest we see in the manga.

Artificial Human is just Steve Simmons being literal-translation-is-literal.

In DB TOS, Clyde Mandelin used "Cyborg", and in Path to Power he used "Android" - which is fully valid. And Trunks even equates the word jinzouningen with the English word "cyborg" in DBZ.

[Puto]

Jinzōningen is pretty much the Japanese equivalent of Android. TLDR; It's Toriyama's fault.

[rereboy]

What's illogical about the belief that as many original terms should be preserved as possible in order to maintain consistency between versions? You're escalating this a bit much now.

I'm not saying that your preference is wrong, I'm just saying that you are being unfair in criticizing Viz for it, like there is actually something wrong with it. There's not. They did nothing wrong. I'm just stressing that particular point, which you seem to keep ignoring or not accepting.

I disagree on a descriptive basis. Artificial Human is a more effective blanket term for that batch of characters. Android is a slightly lazy shorthand.

I'd also prefer somebody with a proven background in Japanese weigh (or be properly sourced/cited) in on the translation of "jinzouningen" before anybody goes declaring what's an accurate translation or not.

You seem like you're just trying to hit back against everything I consider slightly distasteful about the Viz translation. Do you have a defense for the change of Mr. Satan's name? Or "The Jiggler" in Dragon Ball? Or any of the various oddities that show up in the Majin Buu arc of the Viz manga in general?

Once again, that's just your preference. There's nothing wrong with using one term or the other. As for the proven background, this has already been discussed in the forum with inputs from people with the proper japanese knowledge, so search for it.

And no, I don't blindly defend Viz. Not using Mr Satan, for example, is wrong. However, I'm completely fair in my appreciation of their translation/adaptation and I can distinguish between my own preferences and when they actually did something wrong.

EDIT: Puto actually linked to a informative article about the android thing, so read it if you want more information.

[SaiyaJedi]

According to the Japanese Wikipedia, "Jinzōningen" (人造人間, literally "artificial human" or "man-made man") was first used in Japan in 1923, as the gloss for the word robot in the Japanese translation of the play Rossum's Universal Robots. However, as the word "robot" started to be used as-is in Japan (written ロボット, robotto), and the meaning of "robot" became diluted when it began referring to things not shaped like humans, "jinzōningen" was repurposed. As it is used now, it is a gloss for the word android (which actually predates "robot"), which is specifically a human-shaped robot, sometimes (though not always) meant to be similar to, or even indistinguishable from, organic beings.

So it's not a crime against the franchise by any means to use it, though "android" feels unnatural to English-speakers when describing individuals like 17 & 18 (augmented humans / "cyborgs"), 20 (a robot with an organic CPU), or Cell (a genetically-engineered organic being), which is why Kanzenshuu sticks with "Artificial Humans" as a means of describing all of them.

[Duo]

Buncha stuff

And I still disagree with you. I guess you'll have to find a way to accept that.

According to the Japanese Wikipedia, "Jinzōningen" (人造人間, literally "artificial human" or "man-made man") was first used in Japan in 1923, as the gloss for the word robot in the Japanese translation of the play Rossum's Universal Robots. However, as the word "robot" started to be used as-is in Japan (written ロボット, robotto), and the meaning of "robot" became diluted when it began referring to things not shaped like humans, "jinzōningen" was repurposed. As it is used now, it is a gloss for the word android (which actually predates "robot"), which is specifically a human-shaped robot, sometimes (though not always) meant to be similar to, or even indistinguishable from, organic beings.

So it's not a crime against the franchise by any means to use it, though "android" feels unnatural to English-speakers when describing individuals like 17 & 18 (augmented humans / "cyborgs"), 20 (a robot with an organic CPU), or Cell (a genetically-engineered organic being), which is why Kanzenshuu sticks with "Artificial Humans" as a means of describing all of them.

Thanks for the information, sir. Much appreciated.

[Daimo-Rukiri]

I wonder how Viz plans on continuing these full color prints since in Japan it only made it up to the end of Freeza

[Duo]

I wonder how Viz plans on continuing these full color prints since in Japan it only made it up to the end of Freeza

They probably don't plan to at all unless the release sells particularly well.

[MagicBox]

I picked this up today. This thing is gorgeous.

As mentioned earlier, there's a three-page sound effects glossary. Aside from that, I was surprised by how barebones this thing is. You open the book, and bam. There's chapter one. You finish the last chapter, and bam. End of the book. I'm not used to this. This volume doesn't have the "Enter The DRAGON BALL" section or Q&As from the Japanese release, nor does it have the title page gallery or supplemental material from the normal Tankōbon volumes. It's the worst of both worlds.

I've got two complaints.

1.) Why are they putting the chapter titles on top of the pictures? There's plenty of space in-between the panels. WHY. IS. THIS. HARD. It wouldn't bother me as much if we weren't so close to having 100% unedited artwork, Popo aside.

2.) I know it's been said too many times, but I can't help myself. This translation needs serious revising. I found at least three instances of "Read the original Dragon Ball series for more details!" I thought I had fully activated my cringe-proof shield until I came across "Light Of Death." I forgot about Light Of Death.

The print quality is beautiful, though. I have my nitpicks about the manga being in color, but BOY HOWDY does it look good. I hesitate to call this Viz's best version yet. The (99%) unedited artwork is a huge plus, but the absence of the chapter title pages is too big for me to ignore. I truly can't choose between these and the VizBig editions. If the latter had included all of Toriyama's color pages, they'd be the clear winner. The reality that Viz probably won't release all 520 chapters this way puts a damper on things as well. It's yet another case of "so close, and yet so far..."

And here I've gone and depressed myself.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

It wouldn't bother me as much if we weren't so close to having 100% unedited artwork, Popo aside.

I see people saying this, even though it isn't true. Any time you see an inked in part of a panel for something like Vegeta's jumpsuit or the character's dogi, the artwork there has been edited to add muscle definition or clothing folds so that those sections don't seem out of place with the rest of the image in the Full Color release.

[MagicBox]

Yeah, you're right. But really, that's just something that comes with this colored release. Doesn't the Japanese volume even have a disclaimer stating that the colored release is merely an interpretation of Toriyama's original artwork, and has thus been modified? I think I remember one of our forum members in Japan saying that. While I'm talking about it, I find it odd that no such disclaimer is inside this release.

I'm mainly referring to the fact that Viz themselves aren't tampering with anything. Within the context of this colored release (which has always had these extra lines and such), all Viz has messed with (so far) is Mister Popo.