Goku's mother...appearing soon?!

[MDSTSSJ]

But you opinion & Toei's TV Special contradict Toriyama's Jaco, and I place Toriyama above Toei or fans when it comes to the manga. What you say applies to the anime, not to the manga.

Toriyama:

Yes, Bardock certainly was born from the anime.

However, I don’t remember the particulars of how it went at that time

I don’t recall a lot about the exact contents of the anime, but I do remember it being quite well done. So I used that setting in the main story, as well.

For me, two things can be handled here. 1st: Toriyama is careless and forgets some thinks as always. 2nd: He wanted to ignore the Bardock's TV special in which he was involved ( that's crazy ).

[TheDevilsCorpse]

What instinct? Goku knew how to fight when he arrived on Earth, which means that he was educated about how to fight and how to behave..

No he wasnt. He was a baby on planet Vegeta, physically unable to fight and was a baby when Gohan picks him up and names him. he had no education on anything human babies lacked. His "Saiyan instinct" is the horomonal force that drives their infants to be harder to raise as they are as Goku was described tempermental and deeloped physically faster. Despite it Goku was wild but untrained. He only learned how to fight correctly through his Grandpa a martial artist.
Compared to Vegeta, Tullece, Nappa and Broly - Goku is the only fighter who has form, technique and understanding of meditation. Thus WHY hes always superior to Vegeta.

He's taking about in the "Tori-verse" continuity (for lack of a better explanation here) that has Jaco lead into Dragon Ball and ignore pretty much everything else from that era. In this continuity, Goku is roughly 2 years old when he arrives on Earth, combat ready in a full battle jacket. Upon landing, he exits his attack ball and proceeds to fight it out with Son Gohan, who admits he would have been killed if he wasn't an accomplished martial artist.

[TheGmGoken]

You can't just change Goku's age. Goku was either 0 years old baby or a 2 year old boy. There is a big difference.

No it's not. Both are babies. Not a big difference. Had Goku been 5 or 6 maybe. But 0 and 2? Not a big deal.

Different style or not, it contradicts what we see in BoG, what we see in the Kanzenban spine art, and what Vegeta says in the manga about Saiyan hair.

N..no is doesn't. It's a different style/artist. He just drew Vegeta differently with his head. Hell look at Kid Goku's hair and compare it to Adult Goku. They're not exactly the same either. Kid Goku hair looks more wild. Just a different art style or Vegeta cut his hair. Also about what Vegeta said in the manga:

It doesn't contradict anything about the actual hair growth, or lack of. Their hair just doesn't keep growing like ours would, it reaches that specific length and stops. Toriyama has confirmed that their hair style can change with age, and that's how Nappa went bald.

I disagree. Toriyama was asked about Bardock's battle power, and he says that even though he was strong, he was still a low class, meaning that his battle power wasn't mid class level.

Bardock wasn't promoted. So he was indeed still Low Class. It's like Naruto leaving and returning a Gennin. Bardock most likely was to busy fighting and healing to be promoted.

What instinct? Goku knew how to fight when he arrived on Earth, which means that he was educated about how to fight and how to behave.

Saiyan instinct. It's not the first time this happen. Saiyans are born to fight. Something like that. Haven't that been said quite a few times?

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

He's taking about in the "Tori-verse" continuity (for lack of a better explanation here) that has Jaco lead into Dragon Ball and ignore pretty much everything else from that era. In this continuity, Goku is roughly 2 years old when he arrives on Earth, combat ready in a full battle jacket. Upon landing, he exits his attack ball and proceeds to fight it out with Son Gohan, who admits he would have been killed if he wasn't an accomplished martial artist.

Well then, I guess we have a problem now, if all the rationalized explanarions for continuity sake are being thrown out for their ignorance to their own established concepts, it only makes the overall story even weaker than what thedbzguy often describes. Constant contradictions only DB can get away with.

[crisis]

Regarding "canon," here's another point of view:

Disney now owns the entire Star Wars brand, but to some, George Lucas is and will always be Star Wars. If Disney declares something about SW, but Lucas says something that contradicts Disney, who would you believe?

Toriyama is Dragon Ball, but Toriyama also signed a contract with Toei, so Dragon Ball doesn't solely belong to him. Likewise, Keiji Inafune is viewed by fans as the "father" of Mega Man. But, since he signed a contract with Capcom, he doesn't OWN Mega Man. It's all subjective, and fans will continue to pick and choose what they want to believe is "canon" or not. It's just the way it is, and that's all there is to it.

[jollyr]

What you mean? Why can't Chilled be born? It is cause of his statement about Freeza and Cold's power? To be fair. Chilled isn't all that strong.

The interview at the very least implies Cold and Freeza are the only members of their "race" and aren't born through normal reproductive means; "Freeza's race" is even in quotes.

If we can put an end to "the Changeling race" I suppose I'm on board with it, but Dragon Ball Heroes has thrown around the term "Freeza Clan"...

I love that explanation, they're like freaks of nature. But just cause Cold and Frieza are the only living members of their race doesn't mean Chilled couldn't have existed or Kuriza or whoever. If Cold could have a son so could Chilled presumably and it's cool that they're just one family instead of a whole race. Like royalty or a space mafia.

And as for all the gag stuff and spinoffs that have been coming out lately, I think its great. Part of me wants to compare it to the rest of the series and what's canon and not but I'm just glad to be getting new material especially from Toriyama himself, even if it is just gag stuff. I hate when they do stuff like make the heroes parents extraordinary heroes too (why did Jor-El have to have such a huge part in Man Of Steel??) but since its so long after the real ending of the series (even counting GT) and just fun stuff I don't mind it and I enjoy it that way. I like it better than getting nothing

[crisis]

One possibility is that their race has been extinct for several millenia, and since they're supposedly "asexual beings," they've survived through that one bloodline.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Well then, I guess we have a problem now, if all the rationalized explanarions for continuity sake are being thrown out for their ignorance to their own established concepts, it only makes the overall story even weaker than what thedbzguy often describes. Constant contradictions only DB can get away with.

That's just it (and part of the problem for why people bitch about "canon"). You only have problems if you start trying to include other established information from other sources that he didn't particularly have a significant hand in. Toriyama wrote the manga, came up with the story behind the JSATspecial, basically wrote Battle of Gods himself and now has introduced us to Jaco, which was originally supposed to come out along side the new movie. While there are a couple of goofs here and there, Toriyama is actually being fairly consistent with himself. This includes Jaco not actually contradicting anything in the Dragon Ball manga and working out with some of the Battle of Gods inconsistencies. Like the Battle of Gods plothole that everyone loves pointing out about how the official AGE 778 doesn't work with Birus sleeping for 39 years, and that he should have known about planet Vegeta being destroyed if he went to sleep after it was destroyed in AGE 737.

Well, If you go by Toriyama implying it was destroyed in AGE 739 in Jaco (since they were supposed to be released side by side), when Goku is two, guess what fits?

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Regarding "canon," here's another point of view:

Disney now owns the entire Star Wars brand, but to some, George Lucas is and will always be Star Wars. If Disney declares something about SW, but Lucas says something that contradicts Disney, who would you believe?

Toriyama is Dragon Ball, but Toriyama also signed a contract with Toei, so Dragon Ball doesn't solely belong to him. Likewise, Keiji Inafune is viewed by fans as the "father" of Mega Man. But, since he signed a contract with Capcom, he doesn't OWN Mega Man. It's all subjective, and fans will continue to pick and choose what they want to believe is "canon" or not. It's just the way it is, and that's all there is to it.

Canon is not subjective, unlike notorious American comic industries, japanese companies don't rip away all rights from the authors of serialized ideas they have. They are allowed to produce and market the material, even make new lines for the franchise but the original authors still have creative control because the companies still have some line of respect. The fans do as well and nothing is made canon until the author approves but the companies can do whatever they want with the series. Toei respects Akira enough to give him the final say, American comic book industries however have no problem buying the marketing rights just to trash the story and reboot it to what they see fit. Toei can never reboot dragonball officially without permission.

[crisis]

So what do you think will happen after Toriyama dies? If Toei or Funimation decides to continue the Dragon Ball saga 30 years from now via anime and Shonen adapts it, or vice-versa, it will be considered official canon, because they own Dragon Ball.

Some fans won't consider anything after DBZ, but some fans will, and 50 years from now fans will consider their current version of Dragon Ball "canon" with what's come before it, or not. It's all subjective, dude.

[TheGmGoken]

If Toei or Funimation decides to continue the Dragon Ball

Let me stop you right there. Funimation CANNOT and I repeat CANNOT make a new DB series. They're a DUBBING company. They didn't create DB and they didn't help create it. They just dubbed it 4 times. All they can they is gain enough fan-base for maybe an international Anime like Sonic did(And Kai Boo Arc). But now FUNIMATION CAN'T CREATE ANYTHING DB RELATED.

[crisis]

Sure, right now, they can't. Whose to say what will happen 30, 40, 100 years from now? Anything's possible, lol. That's my entire point; people here are saying "this is canon/non-canon, i am right and you are wrong," but we're not the authority to decide. Whoever owns Dragon Ball in the future after Toriyama expires, whatever they decide what Dragon Ball is, is what will be "canon" for those fans, no matter if we agree or not. That's why I say "canon is subjective."

All we can hope for is Toriyama creates a set guideline for the future of the series after he's long gone, and Toei/Shonen/Whoever respects his vision and follows his guidelines. Otherwise, in the grand scheme of things, does it all really matter?

[TheGmGoken]

Sure, right now, they can't. Whose to say what will happen 30, 40, 100 years from now? Anything's possible, lol. That's my entire point; people here are saying "this is canon/non-canon, i am right and you are wrong," but we're not the authority to decide. Whoever owns Dragon Ball in the future after Toriyama expires, whatever they decide what Dragon Ball is, is what will be "canon" for those fans, no matter if we agree or not. That's why I say "canon is subjective."

All we can hope for is Toriyama creates a set guideline for the future of the series after he's long gone, and Toei/Shonen/Whoever respects his vision and follows his guidelines. Otherwise, in the grand scheme of things, does it all really matter?

Um....what? Once Toriyama dies I'm sure Dragonball will R.I.P. We might get one last animation in TRIBUTE of Toriyama. But I don't expect any more DB to come out after Toriyama past. This is the same company that didn't have Tien in YSGAFR because Tien's original VA died. That's just for a VOICE ACTOR. Imagine the creator. I'm pretty sure Funimation won't make a DBZ anime or manga. As I said they're DUBBING things. If they do make some animation it might be a PARODY or heavily inspired.

[B]

He wanted to ignore the Bardock's TV special in which he was involved ( that's crazy ).

How so? Regarding Toriyama's neglect/forgetfulness of what is actually in the TV special, I've always maintained the idea that Bardock, as a character, retroactively exists within the manga's continuity. We know this, because he drew him in there. But that doesn't mean the exact events as they happened within A Lonely Final Battle happened exactly that way in the manga, which we never see.

Basically, the TV special was originally filler and then by Toriyama's will turned into... half-filler? I guess that is not so basic...

[Zephyr]

More deification of Goku's parents, the Sainted Bardock and Lady Gine of Galilee.

I'm really not seeing how allowing Bardock to have a semblance of an emotional draw to a "mate who happens to not really be that ruthless" is deification, of either of them.

Though I do empathize with your underlying gripe with all of this: they're trying to make Goku's parents seem less "bad". Before, Goku was a good person who came from a family of shitty people, but now they're trying to make it seem like he came from a family of not-so-bad people. Without having come from the antithesis of what he became, him being good in the first place, one of his defining characteristics throughout the series, is kind of made less significant.

But calling it "deification" when they're really just humanizing and softening them up is kind of silly. And at the same time, Goku is still somewhat anti-thesized by his parents. Maybe not morally, to the extent he was before, but in terms of caring about family members on a personal level he's much different from how Toriyama's trying to retroactively paint his parents.

[crisis]

Um....what? Once Toriyama dies I'm sure Dragonball will R.I.P.

You're so sure because you know Dragon Ball better than everyone else on this forum? Nobody here can predict what the future of Dragon Ball is. Don't be silly. 10 years ago there were people like you saying "I'm pretty sure there won't be anymore stories within the DBZ universe," and now we have "Son Goku & Friends Return" and BoG. "I'm pretty sure we'll never know who Goku's mother was."

Like I said, if 50 years from now they want to create a new Dragon Ball series or manga, then they have every right to, because Dragon Ball is bigger than Toriyama. Likewise, Star Wars will continue long after George Lucas passes away, despite what die-hard fanboys say.

Lets say in the future they decide to reboot the series in a way that they want every single "non-canon" movie to fit within the "official" timeline. Some of us here will look at that as a bastardization of what Dragon Ball was originally intended to be, but a lot of other fans will embrace it. What's so hard to understand about that concept? I'm just offering possibilities on what COULD happen, and what fans consider canon or not. Once again, nobody posting here is an authority to claim what is canon, because it's obvious we all view "canon" differently.

The only thing everyone here can be "sure of" is that we're sure we have no idea what the future has in store for Dragon Ball, bottom line.

[Insertclevername]

Basically, the TV special was originally filler and then by Toriyama's will turned into... half-filler? I guess that is not so basic...

I get what you're saying and where you're coming from but at this point you might as well just accept the whole special as canon to the manga. It may not have been written by Toriyama but since he has so much admiration for it, it's safe to just assume that's what Toriyama wants us to envision when it comes to those events in the timeline.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

It's safe to just assume that's what Toriyama wants us to envision when it comes to those events in the timeline.

Ya know, except Jaco contradicting it.

[Insertclevername]

Well, in my defense I've been holding out on reading Jaco until it gets a physical release in the U.S.

So...maybe I'll just shut the hell up.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Goku's mom? The story of how Goku was born out of love, a woman always having to be saved by the manly bardock? Such a pathetic fighter that she quit the forces? Sounds a lot like what I'd expct from literally Naruto.

Now are we going to say that Goku just inherited all his attributes from her? Are we going to say his earth;y upbrining meant nothing now? Goku is special because of that bonk on his head; I don't want Gine to even have a part of that, in relation to his purity. Despite it, she wouldn't serve any purpose for the plot that already ended 2 sagas since. Non-Super Saiyan Bardock was essential for Gokus overall character development. Vegeta's mother however would be a character that would be interesting to see as she would explain life on Planet Vegeta outside Vegeta's and bring up backstory of his relationship his father before Freeza took custody.