Has TFS damaged the reputation of the franchise in the U.S.?

[Paradox295]

Eh, I dunno...I get your point totally Paradox, and I agree that a lot of people do tend to put DBZ on a pedastal it doesn't deserve...but some of it does come down to a person's preferences too.

Like, for example, I admit and agree that Cowboy Bebop is a lot better written than Dragon Ball in general...but Dragon Ball is just so much more my kinda show. I love my serious stuff like Bebop, Baccano, or for some non-anime examples, Law & Order: SVU and Castle (well...that one is KINDA serious...), but I'm always more into stuff like DBZ, One Piece, or TMNT.

It's all about what exactly your cup of tea is.

Yeah, true.

There's a difference between objective and subjective opinions.

You can like things more than other things. Doesn't mean your opinion is bad, or that one is better than the other. It just means you like something more than something else.

Nope.


No disrespect to Dragon Ball Z, but it doesn't deserve to be on lists of "greatest action animation of all time" next to Cowboy Bebop and Batman: The Animated Series. It's nothing more than a dumb Japanese kids cartoon...

Batman the animated series, and any other attempt they have made in creating a batman cartoon makes dbz seem like an absolute masterpiece, seriously it doesn't even follow a continuation of a story one episode to the next which is the epitome of a "dumb american kids cartoon" it has a different writer for every episode. Dragon ball may have shallow writing at times but it is a full tail and keeps a story line while batman the animated series pretty much doesn't even have one.

So, you're telling me.

That all episodic television is bad?

No exceptions.

That if a show tells it's story within self contained episodes, rather than a serialized format, then it's automatically bad?

More importantly...

..you're saying that Batman: The Animated Series using a self contained episodes makes it worse than Dragon Ball Z, a show that spend 60 odd episodes on Namek.

Ok.

[superfunk]

There are exceptions but Batman isn't one of them. When a show is episodic it always loses so much character development to me and overall interest is lost. The only shows that work well in episodic format are sitcoms. If you want deep characters and a satisfying story serialized is always better. Smallville got a lot better when it became slightly serialized, but Prison Break was always better as it was more serialized (subjective I know). With so many different writers I always felt like I got a mixed bag in every episode in Batman. I know the anime in DBZ was drawn out but it had a lot of sustained entertainment compared to Batman. What I wrote is opinionated indeed but saying Batman the Animated Series is on another level is just as opinionated as my comment and is in no way objective.

[baneofdemon22]

What about Breaking Bad?

Haven't seen that yet, but I'm really wanting to. No idea if I'll actually like it, but I'm wanting to give it a try, since I already like Bryan Cranston from 'Malcolm in the Middle'.

Breaking Bad is possibly the greatest show to grace television since The Wire. I refuse to believe anyone could dislike it. Get on it ASAP!

I agree. Although, I wouldn't put the Wire on that big of a pedestal. I thought it was alright, but I consider Breaking Bad and The Simpsons to be the greatest TV shows ever.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Breaking Bad is possibly the greatest show to grace television since The Wire. I refuse to believe anyone could dislike it. Get on it ASAP!

I agree. Although, I wouldn't put the Wire on that big of a pedestal. I thought it was alright, but I consider Breaking Bad and The Simpsons to be the greatest TV shows ever.

Agreed, the wire was okay, only watched a couple of episodes didn't really feel like continuing. Simpsons was best back in the day, now it's eurgh really boring now.

As, for Batman:TAS, IMO the reason it was so great was the fact it was episodic, I don't think it would have worked with it being un-episodic. And the same for DBZ, I don't think an episodic DBZ would have been great, the long drawn out plot is fine. It works.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Breaking Bad is possibly the greatest show to grace television since The Wire. I refuse to believe anyone could dislike it. Get on it ASAP!

I agree. Although, I wouldn't put the Wire on that big of a pedestal. I thought it was alright, but I consider Breaking Bad and The Simpsons to be the greatest TV shows ever.

Agreed, the wire was okay, only watched a couple of episodes didn't really feel like continuing. Simpsons was best back in the day, now it's eurgh really boring now.

As, for Batman:TAS, IMO the reason it was so great was the fact it was episodic, I don't think it would have worked with it being un-episodic. And the same for DBZ, I don't think an episodic DBZ would have been great, the long drawn out plot is fine. It works.

This is true. They are two equally valid methods of storytelling.

[GravediggerNALK]

I effin' love "DBZ Abridged," but it's crystal-clear to me that the guys at TFS love the show, and that their show, beyond being a parody, is also somewhat of a homage/tribute. I'm sure there will be a small sliver of fans out there who believe that any kind of parody constitutes an intentional insult, but those people are in the minority, because the vast majority of people get the difference between a parody and an intentional insult.

My sentiments exactly. I do see it being somewhat of an, albeit small, issue that there are some that only know DBZ from watching the abridged series, but even then, the extent of any "damage" (as it could be seen) would probably be to things like the previously mentioned fan villain tournament. Take wrestling for example: Mick Foley was voted to be TIME's Person of the Year in 1998, and all of that was based solely on the fans' opinion over the person's actual "deservingness" of their position.

Dragon Ball Z Abridged is essentially a group of fans doing their own (well-made) dub of one of their favorite series, and putting in a lot of inside-fandom jokes (and a few that everyone can understand). To say that TFS has "damaged" the reputation of the franchise is a misstatement. They've opened up the franchise to more people, brought back some of the older fans that had fallen out, and given everyone something else to enjoy about it.

[Mewzard]

I'd put Gargoyles among the best action cartoons of all time myself, along with Batman: TAS and Cowboy Bebop (Japan, America, it's all cartoons, let's be honest). It had some episodic times, but it certainly opened up on an amazing five part story. Started rewatching it with my mom last night, and it's been a blast. Really was overdue on a good rewatch. Another show ended before its time (specifically, after they drove Greg Weisman away, the show was just a shell of its former self until it ended after that). Amazing story, voice work, animation, and music.

As for the topic at hand, every single fanbase has people that quote stuff that amuses them in shows. All TFS is doing is giving them funny fan quotes instead of funny choices of dialogue in show.

[GarrettCRW]

Batman the animated series, and any other attempt they have made in creating a batman cartoon makes dbz seem like an absolute masterpiece, seriously it doesn't even follow a continuation of a story one episode to the next which is the epitome of a "dumb american kids cartoon" it has a different writer for every episode. Dragon ball may have shallow writing at times but it is a full tail and keeps a story line while batman the animated series pretty much doesn't even have one.

Being an episodic series does not make a cartoon "dumb". The reality is, most cartoon script writers in America (in fact, most TV writers period) have their fingers in multiple pies because unless you're a staff writer, you're only getting a small fee for each episode of television you sell. This need to write as much as possible is why writers like David Wise shamelessly recycled plots until story editors like Steve Gerber (yes, the creator of Howard the Duck wrote for cartoons) put their feet down and demanded that the plot recycling stop. In fact, in the old days of Saturday morning cartoons and weekday syndicated cartoons, the episodic format was imposed: the networks loathed the serial format because it limited how they could rerun episodes of cartoons, and syndication made it logistically impossible to run serialized shows for any length of time. Two-part episodes became events, and any story running for three or even five episodes was reserved for the series premiere.

Furthermore, "episodic" does not instantly mean "lacks character development". Shows like Batman: TAS, G.I. Joe, He-Man, and The Real Ghostbusters had an uncanny habit of picking away at the characters and the premises of their respective series and creating intensely powerful episodes like "Over the Edge", "There's No Place Like Springfield" Part 2, "The Problem With Power", and "Ragnarok and Roll" that simply could not have come about if the writing was not of a similar caliber of that on serialized shows like Avatar or Dragon Ball.

[Duo]

I'm with the general consensus that DBZ Abridged hasn't brought out anything negative that wasn't already there. Now it's just expressed through repetitive quoting of something legitimately funny instead of more flurpaderpp.

On the other hand, I know several folks who've re-kindled their interest in the series because of the parody, or taken an interest at all because they were exposed to it. Dragon Ball Z Abridged has had a largely positive impact on the world of Dragon Ball stateside and I'm quite grateful for it. It's also nice to be one of those folks who knows the various versions so well as to get all of the jokes, many of which I assume fly over the majority of viewers heads.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Its the memes created from TFS that the fans use to describe the series as a whole that is damaging to the reputation. Though I blame them for not understanding the jokes because they never watched it in japanese.

[thatdbzguy]

No disrespect to Dragon Ball Z, but it doesn't deserve to be on lists of "greatest action animation of all time" next to Cowboy Bebop and Batman: The Animated Series. It's nothing more than a dumb Japanese kids cartoon...

At least someone here admits it.

a lot of people do tend to put DBZ on a pedastal it doesn't deserve

Hardly. Most are aware of how bad DBZ is.

[Kamiccolo9]

No disrespect to Dragon Ball Z, but it doesn't deserve to be on lists of "greatest action animation of all time" next to Cowboy Bebop and Batman: The Animated Series. It's nothing more than a dumb Japanese kids cartoon...

At least someone here admits it.

a lot of people do tend to put DBZ on a pedastal it doesn't deserve

Hardly. Most are aware of how bad DBZ is.

I would appreciate if you would leave this out of my thread. Bring it up in one of the half a dozen threads that you have made for this purpose. It has nothing to do with my topic.

[petronka101]

(And no, fan parodies are not a gray area at all, they are protected by fair use and the right to parody. Things in gray areas don't really have protection but they also aren't deemed illegal or prosecuted legally.)

It's my understanding that TFS IS walking down a gray line of legality because they're using footage from the series. It would be a different story if they were producing their own animation but that would be too expensive and most likely end up a very low quality fan made project. The only reason TFS hasn't been sued and the videos are still up on youtube is because Funimation made a business analysis and concluded that such action would end up back lashing against the franchise in the long run. Plus, they've already milked the cow as it's...

Having said that, I do enjoy TFS' parodies a great deal but try to stay away from the comment section on youtube as much as I can. It can be a soul-shattering experience to see comments like "Finally somebody has made DBZ watchable" with up to a dozen likes. Although one can argue that youtube is a notorious troll forum and if TFS didn't exist, then people would use Naruto, or Bleach or AoT or any other anime to attack DBZ. Some people are too insecure to just enjoy whatever they like.

[rereboy]

It's my understanding that TFS IS walking down a gray line of legality because they're using footage from the series.

No, fair use basically implies the use of parts of the original product with the purposes of comedy/parody or commentary. And that's what they do, use parts of it. The use of parts of an original product for those purposes is protected and legal.

Of course there are limits to fair use but I don't believe they go over those limits.

[petronka101]

Not sure where one can draw the line between "small bits" from original work and "large portions" to conclude that is fair use, given that the original DBZ footage is used in the entirety of each TFS' episode. Which is my point, there's a gray line there, I'm not saying that they're outright violating any law but there's definitely ground to start litigation if somebody wanted to. Again, Funimation is not interested in doing something like that, there's nothing to gain there, instead they're just turning a blind eye.

Now, the fact that Funimation is turning a blind eye is probably the best sign that TFS isn't doing any real damage to the franchise in America or Funimation would be fuming, filing claims all over YouTube. It's mostly some of TFS' most vocal fans being extremely annoying or people who don't have enough wit for a comeback of their own and instead are using TFS quotes to close an argument when they're losing. But hey, some people's idea of a discussion is stating that something is " SO overrated", or my favorite one "objectively bad", no need to explain why (apparently explanations are also overrated ). Maybe is better if they respond with a TFS quote, at least there's something to discuss there.

[rereboy]

given that the original DBZ footage is used in the entirety of each TFS' episode.

That's just a lie.

- First, the audio is completely replaced.

- Second, only a part of the video footage is used (you can check the length of the DBA episodes versus the original episodes and you will see that the DBA are WAY shorter, that alone is a quick way to prove that there's lots of footage not used).

- Third, the video footage is completely altered in its timings and placement to match the new audio and voice work and its even frequently visually altered to include other images and effects in order to transmit a joke.

Also, turning a blind eye having to do with it being legal or illegal is just wrong. Look, anyone can take you to court and sue you even if they have absolutely no reason at all and no legal arguments, especially companies with deep pockets. Only the judge and jury will ultimately say who is right. But until that moment, there's nothing stopping anyone for suing anyone for whatever reason.

Companies will sue anyone that they see as a threat for their well-being. If they viewed Team4star as a threat, they would try to stop them in court because their pockets are deep and because fair use and the right to parody always require an interpretation to see if the parody/commentary complies with the rules regarding fair use and the right to parody, so there there would always be a chance of the judge and jury deciding in favor of Funimation.

Does that possibility make it illegal or a gray area? I don't think so. There's also a chance of someone being convicted for arson when they are innocent because the judge and jury interpreted the evidence incorrectly and so they decided incorrectly. Does that make arson a gray area? No.

[VegettoEX]

What petronka101 is saying is that - with the exception of original graphics masked on top of things and extra special effects - any visual material within an Abridged episode is literally all just Dragon Ball Z content.

The entirety of an Abridged episode is all made from DBZ, not that an entire episode of DBZ necessarily corresponds to an entire episode of Abridged.

[petronka101]

Does that possibility make it illegal or a gray area? I don't think so. There's also a chance of someone being convicted for arson when they are innocent because the judge and jury interpreted the evidence incorrectly and so they decided incorrectly. Does that make arson a gray area? No.

Not at all what I was saying That example doesn't even come close to the case in point. And I'm aware that they're using a shorter, edited version of the original footage... hence the word abridged. In any case, I'm not Funi's lawyer. It's my interpretation from what I've read from the US Copyright Act.

[rereboy]

What petronka101 is saying is that - with the exception of original graphics masked on top of things and extra special effects - any visual material within an Abridged episode is literally all just Dragon Ball Z content.

The entirety of an Abridged episode is all made from DBZ, not that an entire episode of DBZ necessarily corresponds to an entire episode of Abridged.

I listed all the differences, in which I included not only the fact that only a part of the overall footage is used, but also the fact that the timings and placement of all the footage has been altered to correspond to the new audio (and therefore to correspond to their reactions and progression of what they are saying), which, btw, included all the mouth movements of the characters talking on the footage which were altered in its timing and placement to correspond to the lines, voices and progression.

I understood what he meant but I can not help but classify that as untrue, and I explained thoroughly just how much the DBA episodes don't correspond to the original episodes, to the point that only small parts of the footage (mainly action scenes) are just like they were in DBZ and the audio is completely replaced.

[petronka101]

The entirety of an Abridged episode is all made from DBZ, not that an entire episode of DBZ necessarily corresponds to an entire episode of Abridged.

Or maybe it was my English and I could've phrased it better but this is what I meant by entirety.