The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[TheGmGoken]

Jheese. I don't think Butta is THAT much faster and Jheese seems better with Ki control

[RandomGuy96]

I think Burter's speed advantage would overwhelm Jeice's ki control advantage, and Jeice would struggle to actually land a hit on Burter.

[TheGmGoken]

I think Burter's speed advantage would overhwlem Jeice's ki control advantage, and Jeice would struggle to actually land a hit on Burter.

Ki spam? I mean who knows if Butta can dodge all of them. I don't think Butta is faster than Jheese by a lot.

[Polyphase Avatron]

What about Pikkon vs. Dabura?

[TheGmGoken]

What about Paikuhan vs. Dabura?

Draw unless Dabura spits on him or Pikkon uses "Kaioken"

[RandomGuy96]

Pikkon one-shotted Super Perfect Cell with that kick. I think he could do the same to Dabra. He was also considered relevant alongside SS2 Goku in Movie 11, likely due to that haxxed technique he used on Cell. Dabra stomps him if he can't use that kaio-ken-esque flaming aura thing, though.

[Mystic Buu]

Base Bardock(Episode of Bardock) vs Vegeta(Saiyan saga).Considering Bardock was 10 000 before Zenkai boost on Planet Plant,he should be about as strong as Vegeta in Saiyan saga.Who wins?

[RandomGuy96]

Base Bardock(Episode of Bardock) vs Vegeta(Saiyan saga).Considering Bardock was 10 000 before Zenkai boost on Planet Plant,he should be about as strong as Vegeta in Saiyan saga.Who wins?

Nappa > Bardock

Vegeta one-shots.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Episode of Bardock is outright stated to be a continuation of the TV special, meaning Goku's padre is indeed around 10,000 while facing Freeza. I guess the result depends on one factor: how big of a boost did he get after healing from Freeza's attack?

I imagine that if the boost he got while resting on Plant at the beginning of the film was just a normal one like Vegeta had been getting early on in Namek, then he's only a couple of thousand higher. Maybe 16,000 if we give him the same boost Vegeta got. That's lower than Vegeta, but I feel like Bardock is more skilled from having to struggle through his battles and thus that gap would matter a little less. Then again, Vegeta is one durable bastard, especially in the Saiyan Arc. Probably hand it to Vegeta.

If Bardock being on the verge of becoming a Super Saiyan indicates that his near death boost was one of those crazy x33 ones like Goku got before his transformation though...Vegeta is screwed.

[RandomGuy96]

Episode of Bardock is outright stated to be a continuation of the TV special, meaning Goku's padre is indeed around 10,000 while facing Freeza. I guess the result depends on one factor: how big of a boost did he get after healing from Freeza's attack?

But it can't be, since the whole ending of the TV special is changed (Freeza and Bardock talk, Zarbon and Dodoria are there etc.).

To elaborate more on my answer, Toriyama stated in an interview about EOB, when asked about Bardock's battle power, that Bardock isn't powerful enough to make it into the tier of the elites (like Nappa). Bardock < 4,000, which is Nappa's level. Nappa, likely any of the other nine elites, King Vegeta, and kid Vegeta can all stomp his sorry ass with ease, EOB or no, to say nothing of the (by saiyan standards) freakishly powerful Saiyan arc Vegeta.

I'd peg him at 3,000 in EOB. That'd make him exactly a thousand times weaker than Namek Goku, which I think is fitting.

[TheGmGoken]

Base Bardock(Episode of Bardock) vs Vegeta(Saiyan saga).Considering Bardock was 10 000 before Zenkai boost on Planet Plant,he should be about as strong as Vegeta in Saiyan saga.Who wins?

Nappa > Bardock

Vegeta one-shots.

Maybe manga Bardock but not the original Bardock from the anine special. In that case Bardock > Nappa.

[TheGmGoken]

Episode of Bardock is outright stated to be a continuation of the TV special, meaning Goku's padre is indeed around 10,000 while facing Freeza. I guess the result depends on one factor: how big of a boost did he get after healing from Freeza's attack?

But it can't be, since the whole ending of the TV special is changed (Freeza and Bardock talk, Zarbon and Dodoria are there etc.).

To elaborate more on my answer, Toriyama stated in an interview about EOB, when asked about Bardock's battle power, that Bardock isn't powerful enough to make it into the tier of the elites (like Nappa). Bardock < 4,000, which is Nappa's level. Nappa, likely any of the other nine elites, King Vegeta, and kid Vegeta can all stomp his sorry ass with ease, EOB or no, to say nothing of the (by saiyan standards) freakishly powerful Saiyan arc Vegeta.

I'd peg him at 3,000 in EOB. That'd make him exactly a thousand times weaker than Namek Goku, which I think is fitting.

Sorry for a double post but I'm on my phone. But this isn't the first time a scene change in a "flashback". It happens in the manga and anime multiple of times

[TheDevilsCorpse]

But it can't be, since the whole ending of the TV special is changed (Freeza and Bardock talk, Zarbon and Dodoria are there etc.).

To elaborate more on my answer, Toriyama stated in an interview about EOB, when asked about Bardock's battle power, that Bardock isn't powerful enough to make it into the tier of the elites (like Nappa). Bardock < 4,000, which is Nappa's level. Nappa, likely any of the other nine elites, King Vegeta, and kid Vegeta can all stomp his sorry ass with ease, EOB or no, to say nothing of the (by saiyan standards) freakishly powerful Saiyan arc Vegeta.

This isn't a matter of opinion. Regardless of inconsistencies with the beginning, they bluntly state that Episode of Bardock is a continuation of the Bardock TV special. You don't have to like it or accept it for your own "canon", but that doesn't change the fact that Episode of Bardock was created as a continuation of the story first shown in the TV special and follows off of it in terms of continuity.

I'm well aware of the interview. Toriyama seems to follow his own set of continuity with Jaco, Dragon Ball, the JSAT and Battle of Gods these days. Jaco contradicts the Bardock TV special heavily with dates, appearances, etc. They don't seem to exist together in the same continuity and were never stated to be either. Thus, Toriyama's information doesn't retcon what we see in the TV special and Episode of Bardock continuity. All it means is that Toriyama's information is meant to coincide with his own content, with his two panels of Bardock that are inspired by the TV special, but do not imply the whole thing exists in his work.

[RandomGuy96]

Who is "they"? Regardless, it doesn't matter. We plainly saw that the same events didn't transpire, so it can't be a continuation. If "they" said Goku never became a Super Saiyan 3 in Movie 12, which they say is in continuity with the Buu arc, I wouldn't buy it either.

The interview was about EoB, he referenced EoB events, and didn't differentiate between the Bardocks.

[Kaboom]

Then maybe the split-off point between continuities was BEFORE that particular scene. But it's still a continuation.

EDIT: Plus, like I've talked about before, it's still possible if one chooses to reconcile Toriyama's comment with Bardock's given power level in the first TV special. Bardock was powerful, but for some reason he was never formally "promoted" and considered more than a low-class Saiyan. Easy enough. It's like how Vegeta still called Goku a low-class in their first fight despite Goku's power, so it's not like there isn't precedent.

Anyway, my answer to Mystic Buu's proposed match-up... With Bardock pushing 10,000 before, I could see him getting up to something like 15,000 at best, maybe closer to 20,000 (and unlike Goku with the Kaio-Ken x2, that's his normal power instead of a forced and fleeting amplification). His chances of victory against Vegeta depend on which one he's closer to, but overall it's a close match that could go either way.

That said, let's try to keep this from going too far off-topic.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

The interview was about Bardock and just happened to be in an Episode of Bardock volume, as it was the most appropriate place to shove it. He doesn't reference a single thing about the special until stating that the only way to see stories about Bardock are probably those that would be set in the past. When actually asked about specific parts of the special, he actually goes out of his way to avoid answering Ooishi's questions about it. Instead of just telling her a number (or having one provided for him to go off of since the interview was obviously staged and they could have references Bardock's BP for him), he dances around the question and just explains his view on the whole Saiyan hierarchy in more of a "I don't really care what it his power is in Episode of Bardock, but this is how I envision it all" sort of way.

Like I said, you can disagree, but that doesn't automatically make your opinion the only valid one. The content of the franchise is created with specific intent. A couple of inconsistencies doesn't stop Battle of Gods from being in the main continuity or Episode of Bardock from continuing the continuity of the Bardock TV special, as has been stated by both Shueisha and Toei during the release of both individual versions of that special. You're more than free to have your own opinion on the matter, but your choosing not to believe that they take place in the same continuity doesn't mean that they don't for everyone else or in with the franchise itself. You can't tell the rest of us that we are wrong for not siding with you on the matter.

You can have Bardock be 3,000 if you want, but we can have him at 10,000 and increasing after the boosts. It's not just "No, that's impossible. He's not that strong.".

[RandomGuy96]

The interview was about Bardock and just happened to be in an Episode of Bardock volume, as it was the most appropriate place to shove it. He doesn't reference a single thing about the special until stating that the only way to see stories about Bardock are probably those that would be set in the past. When actually asked about specific parts of the special, he actually goes out of his way to avoid answering Ooishi's questions about it. Instead of just telling her a number (or having one provided for him to go off of since the interview was obviously staged and they could have references Bardock's BP for him), he dances around the question and just explains his view on the whole Saiyan hierarchy in more of a "I don't really care what it his power is in Episode of Bardock, but this is how I envision it all" sort of way.

Yes, that's exactly what he does when asked about battle power. But I don't see how that's relevant, since he didn't separate the two Bardocks and was talking about Bardock right there in an EOB volume.

Like I said, you can disagree, but that doesn't automatically make your opinion the only valid one.

When did I say it was? In fact, you're the only one who said that when you said EOB and the special being in the same continuity is complete fact and non-debatable.

The content of the franchise is created with specific intent. A couple of inconsistencies doesn't stop Battle of Gods from being in the main continuity

Says you.

Episode of Bardock from continuing the continuity of the Bardock TV special, as has been stated by both Shueisha and Toei during the release of both individual versions of that special

I don't care what they state. If it doesn't match up with what happened, then it doesn't match up with what happened. If the same things didn't happen (as Kaboom noted, it may have diverged before then), it's not in the same continuity. Simple.

. You're more than free to have your own opinion on the matter, but your choosing not to believe that they take place in the same continuity doesn't mean that they don't for everyone else or in with the franchise itself. You can't tell the rest of us that we are wrong for not siding with you on the matter.

You can have Bardock be 3,000 if you want, but we can have him at 10,000 and increasing after the boosts. It's not just "No, that's impossible. He's not that strong.".

Again, when did I outright say "Bardock is undoubtedly below 4,000 and anyone who thinks otherwise is factually wrong"? Should I put "IMO" at the end of every sentence?

[KentalSSJ6]

SSJ4 Bebi Vegeta

Spoiler:

VS SSJ4 Goku.

[RandomGuy96]

Baby Vegeta fucking murders him. I think that Baby's three forms are equivalent to the SS forms... so base Baby Vegeta is way stronger than base Goku. SS Baby Vegeta > SS3 Goku.

[Luso Saiyan]

But I don't see how that's relevant, since he didn't separate the two Bardocks and was talking about Bardock right there in an EOB volume.

He clearly was talking about Bardock at the time of his death. He wasn't counting the events of EoB, otherwise he wouldn't need to remind people about his ultimate fate.