Unpopular DB opinions

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by rereboy » Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:46 pm

ABED wrote:Well, the creators are different, but it's the same in practice. The reason for filler is pretty much the same, on broadcast TV, there are usually over 20 episodes per season, and it's hard to devise 22 episodes that stay on point. In Japan, they air Dragon Ball year round so to keep up the schedule they add more stories.
I disagree completely. If I'm writing a book or making a TV series and I decide to make some chapters longer or add more chapters and make the characters take some detours, so that the pacing, plot progressing and their world is more fleshed out and the book is longer, often while still including important stuff and progress about the main plot in those instances, just not developing it too quickly, I'm doing a completely different thing than a guy that is adapting the on going work of another person and stalls for time by adding stuff just so the plot in the adaptation doesn't get too close to the plot of the on going source.

And DB indeed has a few instances of good filler. However, most of it is just tolerable and inferior to the source material. The rest is bad.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Kid Buu » Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:23 pm

The power-ups in the Freeza arc are much bigger asspulls than the ones in the Buu arc.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Gaffer Tape » Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:32 pm

Yeah, I agree with rereboy. In fact, I've never heard what ABED describes as "filler". I usually hear them referred to as "breather episodes". As in, we don't want you to get bogged down with a serious story arc all the time, so it helps break the tension once in a while to have just a random, fun adventure. Like Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, for example, right before the Dominion War started, and the bad guys took over the station, there was a comedy episode where Jake and Nog do odd jobs to win an old baseball card. It's not filler. It's just a break from what would otherwise be constant, oppressive, serious arcs, hence why it's called a "breather".
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by TheGmGoken » Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:48 pm

Kid Buu wrote:The power-ups in the Freeza arc are much bigger asspulls than the ones in the Buu arc.
Damn straight. 90K to 3 million. At least Vegeta constantly fought people so I make an minor exception for him. Lets not forget Gohan zenkais in that arc.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by goku the krump dancer » Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:09 am

I absolutely love the "fight filler" or "fight padding", whatever you wanna call it. Because of it every fight in the anime version of the Boo arc is better than its manga counter part. The fights between Goku and Cell is also much better in the anime than in the manga.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by TheGmGoken » Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:21 am

goku the krump dancer wrote:I absolutely love the "fight filler" or "fight padding", whatever you wanna call it. Because of it every fight in the anime version of the Boo arc is better than its manga counter part. The fights between Goku and Cell is also much better in the anime than in the manga.
Goku vs Majin Vegeta in the manga was depressing. Arguably the two most popular characters have a match and it's a throw away match. Majin Vegeta got better screen time in the anime than in manga. But I disagree with Cell vs Goku. Both are equal IMO. Maybe the mang version got a slight advantage. But pretty equal.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:05 am

I disagree completely. If I'm writing a book or making a TV series and I decide to make some chapters longer or add more chapters and make the characters take some detours, so that the pacing, plot progressing and their world is more fleshed out and the book is longer, often while still including important stuff and progress about the main plot in those instances, just not developing it too quickly, I'm doing a completely different thing than a guy that is adapting the on going work of another person and stalls for time by adding stuff just so the plot in the adaptation doesn't get too close to the plot of the on going source.

And DB indeed has a few instances of good filler. However, most of it is just tolerable and inferior to the source material. The rest is bad.
If you are writing a book that's going to be published, you aren't going to be told how many chapters there are. When TV shows get orders they usually get a specific number of episodes they have to come up with. Those detours work in TV, but not in a novel. A plot is a purposeful progression of events leading to a climax and resolution. Taking detours just adds fat and padding to the book. If you can't flesh out the world and the characters while moving the plot forward, that's bad writing. TV isn't a novel. Each episode typically has a beginning middle and an end, and sometimes has one or two things that carryforward to the next week, but it's not a novel. The first Dexter novel and first season were pretty close, however, the novel was all one story. It was all about Dexter finding the Ice Truck Killer, whereas in the show, each episode had a case of the week and the thread of the ice truck killer was more prominent in some episodes than others.

I disagree with your last line but that's a matter of preference.
Yeah, I agree with rereboy. In fact, I've never heard what ABED describes as "filler". I usually hear them referred to as "breather episodes". As in, we don't want you to get bogged down with a serious story arc all the time, so it helps break the tension once in a while to have just a random, fun adventure. Like Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, for example, right before the Dominion War started, and the bad guys took over the station, there was a comedy episode where Jake and Nog do odd jobs to win an old baseball card. It's not filler. It's just a break from what would otherwise be constant, oppressive, serious arcs, hence why it's called a "breather".
You're arguing semantics, and I've never heard it referred to as a "breather". Regardless, the reason for filler, standalones, chufa, padding, breathers, etc. are all the same. You have a large number of episodes, it's hard to make it all one giant story, give people a story with closure for that week and keep people wanting to come back for more. 24 tries to make it all one story and that's why it usually sags in the middle of the season.

Regardless of the term used it all just means material that is outside the story that is used to pad out other material.
Damn straight. 90K to 3 million. At least Vegeta constantly fought people so I make an minor exception for him. Lets not forget Gohan zenkais in that arc.
Yeah, he fought lackies. Goku was training in severe gravity for 6 days straight. Either way, I think Toriyama made a huge number for Freeza to make him a huge threat but didn't put much thought into the logic of how his protagonists could become a suitable threat to him.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Flame Dragon » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:26 am

Gyt Kaliba wrote:
ABED wrote:Here's an unpopular opinion, I think people hear the word filler and damn near automatically think it's crap regardless of its actual quality.
Yeah, there's definitely a stigma against 'filler'. I think Naruto helped contribute to that quite a bit too, since it seems like ever since then, the word filler has been viewed with vitriol by just about any fanbase. I've even heard some people say they won't watch it outright, won't even purchase the DVD's unless there's also canon material on it. That's all fair and good I suppose, it's their money after all, but...if they're that vehemently against it, why don't they just read the original manga in the first place?

In the case of DB-related filler though, it's about half and half for me. There's some filler I really enjoy (the driving episode, Kuririn's 101st proposal, and even some of the Super Saiyan Goku V.S. Freeza fight extension to a degree), but at the same time there's filler that I just cannot stand (Bulma and the damn crab come to mind immediately). Even the stuff I can't stand though, I still watch whenever I'm re-watching the series, because it's still more time spent with characters I love.
Well do you realize Naruto produced some of the most shitty, crappy, timewasting pile of dung fillers ever?
Everytime someone wants to justify filler, i always bring the two year filler hell on the end of Part I Naruto.
God i watched all the filler hell episodes on TV Broadcast (before i could tell the difference from canon to filler ) and boy it was bad. REAL BAD.
I dare everyone to watch all that shit without losing their minds. Even i realized something was wrong when an episode was about a Curse Mark that turns you... into a tiger?!?!? Da fuck.
And it was really awful because it ruined the Naruto anime adaption, which up to that point was almost fillerless.
Shippuden filler is even worse, terrible. The only decent filler arcs were Chikara Arc, Three-Tails Arc and Foundation of Akatsuki Arc.

I can't imagine how painful it has been for viewers at the time to endure all that nosedive in the writing. FOR TWO YEARS

And that's why people hate filler so much. Most of the filler ADDS NOTHING to the story, only wastes time, has awful animation and only creates a useless gap between manga and anime by creating plotholes.

Personally i think most of the filler kept in Kai was for the better. The only fillers i enjoy are humor episodes (like Driving School with Goku&Piccolo, that stuff was gold :lol: ) and extended fightning scenes. In fact i hope they keep most of the Majiin Vegeta fight on Kai Buu Arc.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:32 am

The filler comes from a need to pump out a lot of product. My question is why the hell the producers feel shows like DB and Naruto have to go year-round?

It sucks when the filler clashes with the canon material, but in and of itself, it can be quite good.

I know Gregory does essentially the same thing as Bubbles, but I still like the character and that episode. I even enjoy the orphan episode. One of my favorites is the stuff involving the B-Team, such as the pendulum room episode.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by rereboy » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:52 am

ABED wrote: If you are writing a book that's going to be published, you aren't going to be told how many chapters there are. When TV shows get orders they usually get a specific number of episodes they have to come up with. Those detours work in TV, but not in a novel. A plot is a purposeful progression of events leading to a climax and resolution. Taking detours just adds fat and padding to the book. If you can't flesh out the world and the characters while moving the plot forward, that's bad writing. TV isn't a novel. Each episode typically has a beginning middle and an end, and sometimes has one or two things that carryforward to the next week, but it's not a novel. The first Dexter novel and first season were pretty close, however, the novel was all one story. It was all about Dexter finding the Ice Truck Killer, whereas in the show, each episode had a case of the week and the thread of the ice truck killer was more prominent in some episodes than others.

I disagree with your last line but that's a matter of preference.
You are just commenting on the details of my examples instead of actually providing solid arguments for why the filler in anime based on the manga should be considered the same as "filler" in TV shows.

Their entire purpose is different (stall for time so that they don't get to close to where the manga is VERSUS flesh out the world, characters and situations involving them more so that we can have a few more episodes), the persons who make them are different (different creators) and the only common thing about them is that they make the product longer.

Completely different animals.

Also, tell me that detours and etc don't work on novels after reading A Song of Ice and Fire. That's a good example of the author fleshing out the world he created with a lot of stuff, detours, situations, etc, etc. The TV series (Game of Thrones) actually has to cut quite a bit of it because its just too much.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:01 am

rereboy wrote: You are just commenting on the details of my examples instead of actually providing solid arguments for why the filler in anime based on the manga should be considered the same as "filler" in TV shows.
Completely different animals.

Also, tell me that detours don't work on novels after reading A Song of Ice and Fire. That's a good example of the author fleshing out the world he created with a lot of stuff, detours, situations, etc, etc. The TV series (Game of Thrones) actually has to cut quite a bit of it because its just too much.
That's not its purpose, it's to
Their entire purpose is different (stall for time so that they don't get to close to where the manga is VERSUS flesh out the world, characters and situations involving them more so that we can have a few more episodes), the persons who make them are different (different creators) and the only common thing about them is that they make the product longer.

fill their obligation of 20 plus episodes. As good writers, they use it to flesh out characters and the world, but that's not the primary purpose. They aren't exactly the same, but the reasons are very similar. The biggest difference is due to the source material. And I did give an argument why they are the same. You just dismiss it because you disagree. Why was DB in trouble of getting ahead of Toriyama's story? Because they had to come up with episodes for nearly every week of the year, same thing with American TV, they both have to fit their stories in a given number of episodes. Notice how much tighter shows on cable are. They have shorter seasons and the plots are usually much tighter.

In Lord of the Rings Tom Bombadil adds little or nothing to the story, and is a great example of terrible filler in a novel.

Good filler in DBZ fleshed out Gohan and let the audience get to know him, or the small bit of history between Vegeta and Guldo.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Gaffer Tape » Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:29 am

ABED wrote:You're arguing semantics, and I've never heard it referred to as a "breather". Regardless, the reason for filler, standalones, chufa, padding, breathers, etc. are all the same. You have a large number of episodes, it's hard to make it all one giant story, give people a story with closure for that week and keep people wanting to come back for more. 24 tries to make it all one story and that's why it usually sags in the middle of the season.

Regardless of the term used it all just means material that is outside the story that is used to pad out other material.
Um, what? Did you even READ my post? How am I arguing semantics at all? And what difference does it make whether you've heard the term or not? Regardless of whether you've heard of it, it's referring to something totally different than what an anime adaptation of a manga does and serves a totally different purpose.

Hey, maybe some of the shows you watch do shamelessly break away for the sole purpose of padding out time. Everyone has different motives, I guess. But in shows I've heard it attached to, it is what I've said: because they WANT to tell that story, because they WANT to affect the pacing in that way, because they don't want every episode to hit the same note.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by rereboy » Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:39 am

I forgot to mention, ABED, that you are completely ignoring the fact that there's nothing stopping the creators of a TV Show of making all of the episodes of the season completely about the main arc if they want.

You are linking the fact that have a contract to do a certain amount of episodes to the need of having "filler", when they can create those episodes about anything they want at all and they are the ones who create the original story and everything else.

How is that exactly comparable to an anime that is following the already laid out arc and plot of a manga? Completely different situation.

Like Gaffer Tape said, in a TV show, when they do a "filler" episode, they choose to do it because they think its more advantageous to have a breather episode, where they can have other settings and situations and flesh out the world and break the tension of the main arc. There's really nothing stopping them from writing the episode as another main arc episode, they just don't want to. Filler in a anime? Different story.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:51 am

rereboy wrote:I forgot to mention, ABED, that you are completely ignoring the fact that there's nothing stopping the creators of a TV Show of making all of the episodes of the season completely about the main arc if they want.

You are linking the fact that have a contract to do a certain amount of episodes to the need of having "filler", when they can create those episodes about anything they want at all and they are the ones who create the original story and everything else.

How is that exactly comparable to an anime that is following the already laid out arc and plot of a manga? Completely different situation.

Like Gaffer Tape said, in a TV show, when they do a "filler" episode, they choose to do it because they think its more advantageous to have a breather episode, where they can have other settings and situations and flesh out the world and break the tension of the main arc. There's really nothing stopping them from writing the episode as another main arc episode, they just don't want to. Filler in a anime? Different story.
I'm making a new thread for this topic.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by DBZ Mick » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:27 pm

Having finally seen the Goku and Piccolo get driver's license filler a while back...

I found it a little boring. I mean I liked the interaction between both teachers and Goku and Piccolo which was amusing.

What I liked most was the scene where Chichi tells Goku to get his license and Goku's like 'Piccolo ain't got one' and he's like "Why would I have one?" That was pretty funny.
It is in his character to be rude and a bit crass. He's a hick, with no formal education. That is Son Goku. That is who he is.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Kid Buu » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:42 pm

DBZ Mick wrote:Having finally seen the Goku and Piccolo get driver's license filler a while back...

I found it a little boring. I mean I liked the interaction between both teachers and Goku and Piccolo which was amusing.

What I liked most was the scene where Chichi tells Goku to get his license and Goku's like 'Piccolo ain't got one' and he's like "Why would I have one?" That was pretty funny.
Yeah I never saw the hype behind that one either.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MediaFanGirl93 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:32 pm

Here's another unpopular opinion.

I'm not a fan of the saiyans at all (except for Goku and his sons and family). Not because of their race, but because the fans treat them like saints compared to the other characters, and demonize humans who did less damage than they did.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by TheGmGoken » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:42 pm

MediaFanGirl93 wrote:Here's another unpopular opinion.

I'm not a fan of the saiyans at all (except for Goku and his sons and family). Not because of their race, but because the fans treat them like saints compared to the other characters, and demonize humans who did less damage than they did.
So basically every Saiyan but Vegeta :lol:

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Gaffer Tape » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:43 pm

Yeah, I agree with the driving episode. I mean, it's humorous, but it's not great. I've never quite understood the hype for it. That is, it's a hilarious idea, but I don't think it's taken enough advantage of, and it gets to be a little redundant. It's certainly not bad, but I wouldn't put it near the top of any list. That, and the animation on that episode was absolutely terrible! It was during Seigasha's rare "I don't know what the hell we're doing" phase.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Kid Buu » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:45 pm

On another hand, I absolutely LOVE the Space Orphans filler. I just love the atmosphere of it, and how it sets up Freeza.

I also like Fake Namek mainly because I always liked the adventure parts of the series.
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