When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

[Kakarot88]

"As strong as Cell" means power that's between Imperfect Cell and Super Perfect Cell. If Goku said "stronger than Cell", then we'd have to assume that he means stronger than Cell had ever been (so Super Perfect Cell), but Goku just said that Dabra's stronger than he had previously thought, which could still fall in range of Imperfect Cell and Super Perfect Cell, or be a little above it for all we know.

Considering the only form Goku ever fought was perfect form Cell and the story is made for kids and has the ante get upped each time your reasoning to support your argument seems tenuous at best...but hey, believe what you'd like.

[Kamiccolo9]

"As strong as Cell" means power that's between Imperfect Cell and Super Perfect Cell. If Goku said "stronger than Cell", then we'd have to assume that he means stronger than Cell had ever been (so Super Perfect Cell), but Goku just said that Dabra's stronger than he had previously thought, which could still fall in range of Imperfect Cell and Super Perfect Cell, or be a little above it for all we know.

Considering the only form Goku ever fought was perfect form Cell and the story is made for kids and has the ante get upped each time your reaosning to support your argument seems tenuous at best...but hey, believe what you'd like.

Goku fought a heavily suppressed Perfect Cell. And SSJ Gohan never really went all out against Perfect Cell, so we don't really know how he would have stacked up against him. Even limiting Dabura's power to Perfect Cell's covers a pretty big range.

[Kakarot88]

Even limiting Dabura's power to Perfect Cell's covers a pretty big range.

Yep, which is why if you look at my earlier post, reconciling this disparity to have Gohan not be SS2 against Dabura, despite official guides and common sense saying so, in order to make Gohan seems more off the chain than he is for strength debates does not work.

The disparity simply put is this, if you believe the Daizenshuu is wrong and Gohan did not fight at SS2 against Dabura than then you must reconcile the following:

• more powerful SS1 young Gohan could barely contend and definitely could not defeat perfect Cell without becoming SS2.
  • Reference Material:
    Spoiler:

    Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P2.3-4
    Context: after Gohan powers up
    Vegeta: “That brat…How did he get such a gigantic battle power?…This is impossible…!”
    Cell: “Looks like what Son Goku said wasn’t a complete bluff…But it seems he overstated things a little when he said you could defeat me…”

    Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P6.4
    Context: after fighting Gohan a little
    Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least?”

    Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P15.4, P16.1
    Cell: “I understand perfectly well that you don’t like fighting …But I don’t really know what you mean when you say that you don’t want to kill me. You couldn’t kill me in a hundred years. Well, am I wrong?”
    
    Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P16.2-3
    Gohan: “I-I’m gradually starting to understand…What father means when he says I’m the only one who can defeat Cell…It seems that since long ago, whenever my anger flares up, I subconsciously begin fighting madly with outrageous power…So…father must be calculating on that…”

    Chapter: 405 (DBZ 211), P9.1-2
    Context: as Cell has Gohan in a bear hug
    Cell: “Well, how's this? It hurts, right? Get angry! You don’t want to die like this, do you? Well, what’s the matter? What are you hesitating for!? Your bones will break. There’s no way you could hate fighting this much.”

  Dabura is at least as powerful as Cell.
  • Reference Material:
    Spoiler:

    Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.1-4
    Context: after Kaioshin again warns against unleashing Boo
    Vegeta: “Hmph…The way things are going, this ‘Majin Boo’ guy isn’t going to be anything special, is he? Just like that ‘Dabra’ jerk…[ ] I’m saying that this ‘Dabra’ guy doesn’t seem as bad as you two feared. Looking at his attacks and movement outside earlier, it seems that if we just watch out for his spit, then we should manage something. I can’t call Kibito anything but a bumbler for getting done-in like that…”
    Kaioshin: “…Is-is that true, Son Goku?...”
    Goku: “Yeah…Well, even if that wasn’t him at full force…I think that before he would have been a frightening opponent, but…7 years ago there was a guy called ‘Cell’…[Dabra]’s probably about as strong as him…”

  When Gohan fights Dabura, Gohan is weaker than when he fought against Cell.
  • Reference Material:
    Spoiler:

    Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1.1-4
    Goku: “Gohan, it’s your turn next, but have you trained properly?”
    Vegeta: “Unfortunately, it seems he got carried away in peace and didn’t do any significant training. Our powers are higher than his now…Though I suppose there’s no telling what would happen if he snapped and went into a frenzy… ”
    Kaioshin: “S-so that’s why these 3 have such composure...In a pinch, they can put forth tremendous power, like Son Goku displayed momentarily…”

    Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
    Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
    Goku: “Magic, huh? [Dabra]’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
    Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
    Goku: “He really did slack off!”

    Chapter: 459 (DBZ 265), P2.2-3
    Badidi: “How about it, Dabra? Just to be sure, do you have confidence that you can defeat that Earthling [Gohan]?”
    Dabra: “Naturally. I fought him a little bit before, after all. There’s no doubt that I can take care of trash like that.”

    Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P3.1-2
    Context: as Gohan remembers Goku’s advice to get angry
    Gohan: “I-I am angry…! I’m angry, but…[it’s not] like it was ba-back then…”

  Somehow weaker SS1 older Gohan can contend and possibly defeat Dabura, someone as strong as Cell, without going SS2 .
  • Reference Material:
    Spoiler:

    Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P10.5-6
    Context: as Gohan fights Dabra
    Vegeta: “Damn it…this is pissing me off! Alright, I’ll finish this!”
    Goku: “Don’t, Vegeta! Let [Gohan] do it. It ain’t like he’s completely losing.”

  In order to reconcile this fans explain why this is possible without having Gohan fight Dabura at SS2 by saying Gohan was only fighting at SS1. So the "trash" that Dabura can defeat is only SS1 Gohan and not SS2.
  • Reference Material:
    Spoiler:

    Chapter: 459 (DBZ 265), P2.2-3
    Badidi: “How about it, Dabra? Just to be sure, do you have confidence that you can defeat that Earthling [Gohan]?”
    Dabra: “Naturally. I fought him a little bit before, after all. There’s no doubt that I can take care of trash like that.”

However, that makes no sense, because that would mean weaker SS1 Gohan was doing better against Dabura than his younger more powerful self did against perfect form Cell.

If Gohan is not fighting against Dabura as a SS2 then that means weaker Boo arc SS1 Gohan can somehow accomplish what his stronger Cell arc SS1 younger self could not

The only other alternative is to make Dabura even weaker than Perfect Form Cell, and if that's the case, then why even mention Gohan's decline in strength as of the Cell Arc at all, seeing as how he would be woefully below the level of Goku pre-death by Cell blowing up, let alone 7 years of additional training Vegeta? I find it incredulous to try and claim that Dabura and SS1 Gohan as of the Boo arc are much much weaker than Perfect form Cell, just so you can say Gohan was not SS2 against Dabura.

[dbgtFO]

So, to the "SS believers", I have this question:

• Why didn't Gohan use Super Saiyan 2 while the whole universe was at risk when Majin Boo was about to be revived, and also revived later? He was even trying to power up even more by drawing power from his anger. Don't forget that he could easily transform into one against Kibito, so he hasn't lost the ability.

I think if an official answer does come out, it'd probably be using one of the explanations Kaboom and others have posted(that'd annoy me to no end though ).

To the "SS2 believers", I have this question:

• Why doesn't Gohan have the SS2 aura? SS2 always granted to the user an intense aura with sparks, yet Gohan's aura in identical to that of normal SS. The excuse that he got weaker doesn't work, because he displayed the SS2 aura with sparks just fine against Kibito.

Yeah, I think he's simply just meant to be Super Saiyan after the Kibito incident.

For the record I think he's simply just a Super Saiyan(changed my mind a lot about this subject as "my final thoughts" thread show ). The art is too consistent for me to think of it as some mistake.
As far as the story is concerned, it seems contradictory to me, that he couldn't go to the next level after the tournament, but had no apparent problems doing so at the tournament and they don't even bring it up, that he actually did so at the tournament either.

I also don't buy the logic behind claiming person A is as good as person B was, if person B was actually much better than person A. It seems even more counterproductive, when Goku made a point about Dabra perhaps not utillizing his full power, when attacking Kibito and co. only for him to call it about as good as a fraction of the power Cell actually had?
For a story, that's supposed to be simple, it seems a bit complicated.

And that's why I think Toriyama simply changed his mind about the whole deal.
Before the fight began you get the vibes it was supposed to be a guy boasting pretty much the same strength of the Big Bad from the last arc against the guy that killed that Big Bad, but has now become a lot weaker. This should then emphasize how weak Gohan has gotten, if he can't even best that kind of strength anymore.

Instead I imagine Toriyama felt, it'd be best to empahsize Gohan's lack of power, by stripping him of his Super Saiyan 2 form. The lack of lightning and fierce aura underlining the difference between now and how he was as a kid.
I do wonder, if we'll ever get a proper answer to this one, Toriyama might have forgotten why exactly he stripped Gohan of his SS2 form.

[Super Vegetto]

Yeah, this thread again, because I'm freaking confused. But this time, I would like to ask everyone to only go by the original manga, and ignore everything else (colored manga, Daizenshuu, etc).

So, some believe that Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 only against Kibito, while others believe that he was also one against Dabra, Majin Boo('s Egg), and when drawing the Z-Sword (Gohan's hairstyle indicates that he was using the same form in all three points).

So, to the "SS believers", I have this question:

• Why didn't Gohan use Super Saiyan 2 while the whole universe was at risk when Majin Boo was about to be revived, and also revived later? He was even trying to power up even more by drawing power from his anger. Don't forget that he could easily transform into one against Kibito, so he hasn't lost the ability.

To the "SS2 believers", I have this question:

• Why doesn't Gohan have the SS2 aura? SS2 always granted to the user an intense aura with sparks, yet Gohan's aura in identical to that of normal SS. The excuse that he got weaker doesn't work, because he displayed the SS2 aura with sparks just fine against Kibito.

I had so much debates about this, but in time i finaly went to Super Saiyan side...Not including AT in this, only manga story and why:

Gohan wanted a challenge, which is why he fought Dabura as a SSJ. Yes whole universe will be destroyed, and Gohan is doing exactly what Goku and Vegeta were doing. Only diffrence was that Gohan was up against much stronger opponent and his lack of fighthing against someone more skilled and close to his power was what made it difficult. He was stronger than Dabura, but not by wide gap. I would say that Dabura was (Cell that Goku fought (like mentioned by Goku), with little advantage because of magic) and Gohan was superior or only few steps above like Cell against Goku.

Also important quote that is mentioned after Goku stated Dabura's power.

Chapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P10.5
Context: after Goku makes Yakon explode with his Super Saiyan aura
Vegeta: “So that bastard Kakarot has also surpassed that wall…The Super Saiyan wall…”

Vegeta clearly didn't assume that Goku surpassed Super Saiyan, which is why he says that...Before this they weren't scared of Dabura, and Vegeta probably knew that alone in SSJ he can take down Dabura in no time, and same goes for Goku, that didn't surpassed SSJ wall at that point in his mind.


Later Gohan used his power through anger and not in SSJ2 for some reason. It can aslo be that he didn't wanted to risk and destroy Earth because Super Saiyan 2 is basicly solar system buster, and even against Cell he was holding back his power for sake of not destroying the Earth, until Goku said otherwise.

Energy wave is not small feat in SSJ2 form and putting all his power in Boo's cocoon could be end of Earth.

This one is realy hard to be explained, but i don't see any other way for him to not use Super Saiyan 2 at sealed ball...


It's funny how anime actualy has couple of sentences that say he was using full power (SSJ2) or something like this:

[ZombieVito]

I think the problem lies within what I bolded. Gohan couldn't "easily" go Super Saiyan 2. Against Kibito, he had to take time to stand around and gather energy to do it, which took long enough that the audience started getting impatient. We've been told and shown that Super Saiyan forms take practice to be able to use at the drop of a hat, and thanks to Gohan's lack of training over the past seven years, he doesn't have the ability to just "pop" into SSJ2 like Goku and Vegeta do.

Since Dabra is evidently weaker than Gohan in whichever form he was using (source for that being a guidebook but it makes sense), Gohan probably started the battle off with Super Saiyan 1 not thinking he'd need anything more. But by the time he realized SSJ2 would be his best bet, Dabra wouldn't allow him the time and effort to transform further. Same against Majin Boo's ball — Boo's release was about to happen in a matter of seconds, and Gohan wouldn't have time to force out Super Saiyan 2. Sufficient anger would work as a shortcut in both situations, but as was noted he's having a hard time making that happen too.

In a nutshell, "Gohan didn't use Super Saiyan 2 because he CAN'T easily take the form at will because he never trained to do so."

...You know what? After all this time, you've FINALLY came up with something that addresses both the artistic depictions AND the story at the same time, or at least, something that I'm satisfied with. Kudos to you bro!

A big fat ditto to this.

[Super Vegetto]

Chapter: 444 (DBZ 250), P3.2
Context: before Gohan becomes a Super Saiyan 2
Gohan: “Well then, I’ll become one, just like you want, though I don’t know why…To top it off, should I go so far as to become a Super Saiyan that has surpassed the Super Saiyan wall?”

Just as Van Damme does splits...

[Kamiccolo9]

Chapter: 444 (DBZ 250), P3.2
Context: before Gohan becomes a Super Saiyan 2
Gohan: “Well then, I’ll become one, just like you want, though I don’t know why…To top it off, should I go so far as to become a Super Saiyan that has surpassed the Super Saiyan wall?”

Just as Van Damme does splits...

It also takes him forever to do it.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I'm starting to think that Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 ever since he got angry for Videl. His hairstyle there is very similar to his SS2 hairstyle, which are also similar to the hairstyle he displays during the Dabra/Boo/Z-Sword incidents.

I mean, it makes more sense, if Dabra is close to Cell's strongest form. He should be going all out to finish the fight as quick as possible, and he was trying to get a rage boost when trying to destroy Boo's Egg so that he can get as strong as he possibly can... it doesn't make sense for him to hold back.

Τhe only other explanation I can think of would take a certain interpretation of this quote: [...] ...to mean that Gohan deliberately avoided using Super Saiyan 2 to avoid giving Boo more energy

But if SS Gohan could put a fight against Dabra, then Dabra wouldn't be a match against SS2 Gohan, and would easily beat Dabra like Vegeta & SS Goku easily defeated, and wouldn't transfer any energy. Meaning that fighting as a Super Saiyan is even more risky.

It could just be that sparks are entirely stylistic, and represent power - Gohan was previously shown with sparks when he was the strongest character we knew of, and it wasn't yet revealed how much weaker he'd become.

But the aura is something visible in-universe.

And the weaker = no sparks SS2 argument can work if you assume Kibito didn't restore his energy, or he'd already lost some from fighting Dabra. I don't think he would have lost enough to drop out of Super Saiyan 2, but I could see the sparks going away if he's only able to produce them at close to 100% because he's weakened.

Even if that was the case, he should be at 100% against Boo, since Goku gave him a senzu. The only excuse I can think is that because his body in untrained, it doesn't produce many sparks & an intense aura, so he may display them sometimes, but not for most of the time.

Besides, when Vegeta fights Pure Boo, he only has sparks in one panel after Pure Boo hits him. Compared to sixteen panels of him lacking sparks. So I don't make too big a deal out of missing sparks.

The only panels Vegeta doesn't have sparks in that fight are the ones that Vegeta doesn't have an aura at all. Every time he shows an aura in that fight, he has sparks.

Basically, Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan (Cell Games/25th TB) always had sparks when they displayed an aura, except for some rare cases, which are usually distant shots, very close shots, cases that they move very fast, or charge a ki attack.

It's from the synopsis for Episode 227 in the DBZ Dragon Books. As translated in FUNimation's version:

"The one-on-one battle between Gohan and Dabura gets underway! With his fighting skills rusty, Gohan has a surprisingly difficult battle against an opponent who clearly possesses inferior power."

This is perfect, I always believed that this was implied in the manga (Vegeta gets impatient and says that he is a guy that Gohan should be able to defeat, and Goku says right after that that Gohan has really gotten rusty).

[kuartus4]

I don't believe SS2 necessarily does have its own aura. The only thing that says this is the GT Perfect Files (which make a mistake in the same sentence they say this, and we're not using anything but the manga) and so there is only interpretations of the arc. It could just be that sparks are entirely stylistic, and represent power - Gohan was previously shown with sparks when he was the strongest character we knew of, and it wasn't yet revealed how much weaker he'd become.

Gohan had sparks when he went ss2 against kibito, where it was specifically mentioned that gohan had gotten much weaker. So that explanation doesn't work.

[hleV]

This is perfect, I always believed that this was implied in the manga (Vegeta gets impatient and says that he is a guy that Gohan should be able to defeat, and Goku says right after that that Gohan has really gotten rusty).

Vegeta complains about Gohan not being able to defeat Dabra overall, because he's so pathetic that he was stronger in the Cell Games. Nothing implies that Gohan at that level of power is above or even equal to Dabra.

[Duo]

I don't like that Goku is being cited as comparing Dabra to Cell at his strongest (Super Saiyan 2). Goku was dead at that point, and Cell had many different levels of power. It's not that reliable of a statement and makes a poor citation in this argument.

This whole subject has been cut-and-dry for years. The manga is extremely consistent with aura presentation between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2, so all you have to do is look at the artwork. Use Kaboom's explanation if you want (it's fucking brilliant), because I do agree that his reason for avoiding Super Saiyan 2 isn't well addressed in the story, but he clearly was not Super Saiyan 2 in those scenes.

Now Movie 10? That's a much worse can of worms.

[Kakarot88]

I don't like that Goku is being cited as comparing Dabra to Cell at his strongest (Super Saiyan 2). Goku was dead at that point, and Cell had many different levels of power. It's not that reliable of a statement and makes a poor citation in this argument.

This whole subject has been cut-and-dry for years. The manga is extremely consistent with aura presentation between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2, so all you have to do is look at the artwork...

So basically you believe the Daizenshuu is wrong and Gohan did not fight at SS2 against Dabura because of the auras?

Then please reconcile the following: how did a weaker SS1 older Gohan contend with a being his stronger younger battle ready SS1 self was getting squeezed to detah and had to go SS2 to defeat him?

Here is what I mean:

• more powerful SS1 young Gohan could barely contend and definitely could not defeat perfect Cell without becoming SS2.
  • Reference Material:
    Spoiler:

    Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P2.3-4
    Context: after Gohan powers up
    Vegeta: “That brat…How did he get such a gigantic battle power?…This is impossible…!”
    Cell: “Looks like what Son Goku said wasn’t a complete bluff…But it seems he overstated things a little when he said you could defeat me…”

    Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P6.4
    Context: after fighting Gohan a little
    Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least?”

    Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P15.4, P16.1
    Cell: “I understand perfectly well that you don’t like fighting …But I don’t really know what you mean when you say that you don’t want to kill me. You couldn’t kill me in a hundred years. Well, am I wrong?”
    
    Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P16.2-3
    Gohan: “I-I’m gradually starting to understand…What father means when he says I’m the only one who can defeat Cell…It seems that since long ago, whenever my anger flares up, I subconsciously begin fighting madly with outrageous power…So…father must be calculating on that…”

    Chapter: 405 (DBZ 211), P9.1-2
    Context: as Cell has Gohan in a bear hug
    Cell: “Well, how's this? It hurts, right? Get angry! You don’t want to die like this, do you? Well, what’s the matter? What are you hesitating for!? Your bones will break. There’s no way you could hate fighting this much.”

  Dabura is at least as powerful as Cell. I am assuming this part is what you discount for Gohan not needing to be SS2, correct?
  • Reference Material:
    Spoiler:

    Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.1-4
    Context: after Kaioshin again warns against unleashing Boo
    Vegeta: “Hmph…The way things are going, this ‘Majin Boo’ guy isn’t going to be anything special, is he? Just like that ‘Dabra’ jerk…[ ] I’m saying that this ‘Dabra’ guy doesn’t seem as bad as you two feared. Looking at his attacks and movement outside earlier, it seems that if we just watch out for his spit, then we should manage something. I can’t call Kibito anything but a bumbler for getting done-in like that…”
    Kaioshin: “…Is-is that true, Son Goku?...”
    Goku: “Yeah…Well, even if that wasn’t him at full force…I think that before he would have been a frightening opponent, but…7 years ago there was a guy called ‘Cell’…[Dabra]’s probably about as strong as him…”

  When Gohan fights Dabura, Gohan is weaker than when he fought against Cell.
  • Reference Material:
    Spoiler:

    Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1.1-4
    Goku: “Gohan, it’s your turn next, but have you trained properly?”
    Vegeta: “Unfortunately, it seems he got carried away in peace and didn’t do any significant training. Our powers are higher than his now…Though I suppose there’s no telling what would happen if he snapped and went into a frenzy… ”
    Kaioshin: “S-so that’s why these 3 have such composure...In a pinch, they can put forth tremendous power, like Son Goku displayed momentarily…”

    Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
    Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
    Goku: “Magic, huh? [Dabra]’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
    Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
    Goku: “He really did slack off!”

    Chapter: 459 (DBZ 265), P2.2-3
    Badidi: “How about it, Dabra? Just to be sure, do you have confidence that you can defeat that Earthling [Gohan]?”
    Dabra: “Naturally. I fought him a little bit before, after all. There’s no doubt that I can take care of trash like that.”

    Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P3.1-2
    Context: as Gohan remembers Goku’s advice to get angry
    Gohan: “I-I am angry…! I’m angry, but…[it’s not] like it was ba-back then…”

  Disparity that needs reconciling Somehow weaker SS1 older Gohan can contend and possibly defeat Dabura, someone as strong as Cell, without going SS2 .
  • Reference Material:
    Spoiler:

    Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P10.5-6
    Context: as Gohan fights Dabra
    Vegeta: “Damn it…this is pissing me off! Alright, I’ll finish this!”
    Goku: “Don’t, Vegeta! Let [Gohan] do it. It ain’t like he’s completely losing.”

[Son_Gohan]

It could just be that sparks are entirely stylistic, and represent power - Gohan was previously shown with sparks when he was the strongest character we knew of, and it wasn't yet revealed how much weaker he'd become.

But the aura is something visible in-universe.

When Trunks returns to the future, his Super Saiyan aura is not the same as it was in the Cell Games, despite it only being a few days prior. His aura resembles more of what Goku and Gohan displayed as Full-Power Super Saiyan, and even his hair is more defined like Gohan’s Super Saiyan 2 form. What in-universe explanations would there be for these changes? None are explicitly given, and if we were to speculate that he trained before going back to his own time, the RoSaT wouldn’t have been possible if he had already used up his 48 hours. There is virtually nothing to support him having any substantial growth in such a short period. Cell’s first form is also shown to share the same aura even though he never displayed it in the past and was evidently nowhere near the same power as Trunks.

It would be hard to argue that this was done for in-universe purposes.

Vegeta complains about Gohan not being able to defeat Dabra overall, because he's so pathetic that he was stronger in the Cell Games. Nothing implies that Gohan at that level of power is above or even equal to Dabra.

There are implications throughout the match that Gohan is superior in raw power. At the beginning, Gohan's kick is able to knock Dabura away even though he had his guard up to block it. Dabura then abandons hand-to-hand combat and resorts to magic, where he lands a clean shot that takes Gohan by surprise yet fails to inflict any visible damage, as would be expected from someone who was inferior or even equal in strength. Near the end, Dabura's sword is caught by Gohan who is once again shown to overpower him at close quarters.

[Kaboom]

So basically you believe the Daizenshuu is wrong and Gohan did not fight at SS2 against Dabura because of the auras?

The Daizenshuu already contradict themselves on the matter. One of them says Dabra fought SSJ2 Gohan, while another says that Gohan didn't use Super Saiyan 2 after the tournament. The Daizenshuu are a complete non-factor in the whole deal.

[mAcChaos]

There are implications throughout the match that Gohan is superior in raw power. At the beginning, Gohan's kick is able to knock Dabura away even though he had his guard up to block it. Dabura then abandons hand-to-hand combat and resorts to magic, where he lands a clean shot that takes Gohan by surprise yet fails to inflict any visible damage, as would be expected from someone who was inferior or even equal in strength. Near the end, Dabura's sword is caught by Gohan who is once again shown to overpower him at close quarters.

Yeah, maybe it's just that Dabura is a much more skilled fighter than a rusty Gohan.

[Duo]

Kakarot88, read the first part of my post again and address that. Cell demonstrated no less than 10 different levels of power in the time he was present in the series:

- First appearance
- Fighting Piccolo, #17, and #16.
- After absorbing #17
- Powering up against Vegeta
- Complete form
- Buff form shown to Trunks
- Powered up against Son Goku
- Showing his "real speed" to Gohan
- Complete form, full power
- Basically Super Saiyan 2
- Whatever power he had attained when fighting Trunks in the future

The most likely candidate is the level he used against Goku in combat, which would just show that Gohan is still stronger than Goku was at the time. Is that a problem somehow? Gohan can still be weaker than he was at the Cell game and be stronger than Goku was at that point. Gohan wasn't even really trying to "fight" Cell at the time, and Cell himself had started using more effort/power/speed or what-have-you than he had against Goku. So much of this is so vague and unreliable that drawing objective conclusions out of it is silly at best.

[Kakarot88]

So basically you believe the Daizenshuu is wrong and Gohan did not fight at SS2 against Dabura because of the auras?

The Daizenshuu already contradict themselves on the matter. One of them says Dabra fought SSJ2 Gohan, while another says that Gohan didn't use Super Saiyan 2 after the tournament. The Daizenshuu are a complete non-factor in the whole deal.

This I did not know! I was aware of the Bra birthdate and some other stuff, but not this. Thanks for the info. Ok, so I got questions for you now, if you have a minute:

• (1) is that a contradiction in the same volume or is it a conflict in 7 and 4?
  (2) Is there only 1 conflict or is one of those stated more often, meaning does the Daizenshuu say Gohan went SS2 against Dabura in more than one place or does it say that about the other statement in more than one place?

@Duo
First off, Duo, you obviously are well versed with the series and a super fan, so when I explain things that are basic to the series please understand it is not because I think you don't know, I do it because I am wanting to be as clear as possible. So nothing in here should be taken as me trying to educate you. I just wanted to get that out there cuz for me sometimes people say stuff to others like they don't know and that can be a real button pusher if they do know. And when I over look something I have no problem calling myself out, so I may be overlooking something entirely. Mad respect, let's continue the discussion:

The most likely candidate is the level he used against Goku in combat,

That's what I think as a low end too because Goku would compare to what he fought or maybe higher with the Ki he sensed as Gohan fought Cell, but as a low end basis that objectively works. Since the series ups the ante per villain it would be out of character to use anything less powerful in my humble opinion. Or do you think it would make sense to retrograde Cell?

which would just show that Gohan is still stronger than Goku was at the time. Is that a problem somehow?

The way you phrase that question the answer is obviously no. Unless, I am overlooking what you are implying.

Gohan can still be weaker than he was at the Cell game and be stronger than Goku was at that point. Gohan wasn't even really trying to "fight" Cell at the time, and Cell himself had started using more effort/power/speed or what-have-you than he had against Goku.

That there is the problem: older boo arc Gohan is doing better against a being that his younger stronger self had to transform to a higher level to defeat.
I respectfully disagree with you that the younger SS1 Gohan was not really fighting Cell at any point until he transformed into SS2. Piccolo tells Goku that Gohan is dieing and he is, Gohan was being bear hugged to death and Goku asks Kurririn for a senzu to go save him. But Cell rather than kill him decided to torture Gohan's friends and family with his Cell Juniors. That's why I posted those strength checker quotes. Yes, in overall context Gohan is not going all out 100% of the time against Cell when he is SS1, but he does fight back 100% and that's why Cell wants him to rage and let lose: to fight someone stronger because Cell's got that Saiyan heritage.

So much of this is so vague and unreliable that drawing objective conclusions out of it is silly at best.

Yeah, I agree with that, but this is an in universe discussion so for these nerdy little debates that's what we gotta use as I guess "evidence." I don't think I'm being unreasonable here, yeah I agree it's vague and innocuous and outside an in-universe discussion I'd pay it no attention. But since this is an in-universe discussion, it's got merrit, right?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Vegeta complains about Gohan not being able to defeat Dabra overall, because he's so pathetic that he was stronger in the Cell Games. Nothing implies that Gohan at that level of power is above or even equal to Dabra.

Vegeta also says this:

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? He’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Goku: “He really did slack off!”

It could be translated as "he" or "we", and the "we" may include Gohan, but maybe not. So, it depends on how you interpret the line, and this is why I said that I believe this is implied, not that it's a fact that it's implied.

When Trunks returns to the future, his Super Saiyan aura is not the same as it was in the Cell Games, despite it only being a few days prior. His aura resembles more of what Goku and Gohan displayed as Full-Power Super Saiyan, and even his hair is more defined like Gohan’s Super Saiyan 2 form. What in-universe explanations would there be for these changes? None are explicitly given, and if we were to speculate that he trained before going back to his own time, the RoSaT wouldn’t have been possible if he had already used up his 48 hours. There is virtually nothing to support him having any substantial growth in such a short period. Cell’s first form is also shown to share the same aura even though he never displayed it in the past and was evidently nowhere near the same power as Trunks.

The aura is like that because he is a Super Saiyan Full Power at that point as well IMO. I believe that Vegeta & Future Trunks mastered the form as well in their 2nd day in RoSaT, and Goten & Trunks did the same by chance, and this isn't only because of the aura.

As for the hairstyle, that's just Toriyama's style having evolved. His hairstyle is still the same as it was in the beginning.

[Kakarot88]

Nothing implies that Gohan at that level of power is above or even equal to Dabra.

To me this implies Gohan is doing better here than he did against Cell, since daddy isn't about to jump in and save Gohan like he was going to against Cell

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P10.5-6
Context: as Gohan fights Dabra
Vegeta: “Damn it…this is pissing me off! Alright, I’ll finish this!”
Goku: “Don’t, Vegeta! Let [Gohan] do it. It ain’t like he’s completely losing.”

Chapter: 405 (DBZ 211), P9.1-2
Context: as Cell has Gohan in a bear hug
Cell: “Well, how's this? It hurts, right? Get angry! You don’t want to die like this, do you? Well, what’s the matter? What are you hesitating for!? Your bones will break. There’s no way you could hate fighting this much.”
...
Chapter: 405 (DBZ 211), P12.1
Piccolo: “Don’t forget…! Even if his power is #1, he’s still a kid…!”
Piccolo then says he's going to save Gohan. Goku then yells to Kuririn for a senzu, he's about to go save his dieing son.

...
then while everyone is getting beat up on the cliff by the Cell Juniors, Gohan just stares in bewilderment and thinks to himself how if he really does have hidden power he needs it now. SS1 Gohan says to himself that he wants to beat Cell but he does not know how.

Keep in mind Cell was not even at his full power, SS1 Gohan gets trashed by non full power perfect Cell. Non full power perfect Cell was crushing the life out of SS1 Son Gohan. Cell only goes full power after Gohan turns SS2.

Chapter: 409 (DBZ 215), P3.5
Context: after Gohan says he can beat Cell
Cell: “Well then, I’ll show you…! My fearsome true power…!”

Chapter: 409 (DBZ 215), P8.2-4
Context: after Cell powers up
Goku: “S-so we finally get to see Cell fight at full power”
Kuririn: “This ki is so astounding, it’s like the entire Earth is shaking.”
Gohan: “What’s the big deal?”

And it's not like Dabra is going easy on Gohan, to get Majin Boo the energy he needs Dabra needed to inflict damage.

Chapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P12.1-2
Context: Babidi is concerned now that Goku and co. have defeated even Yakon.
Dabra: “…Alright then, I know what to do…I shall take away your anxiety, Lord Babidi…I shall personally go to Stage 3. Then in the blink of an eye I shall fill Majin Boo’s ball with their energy, you’ll see.

You are essentially saying weaker SS1 older Gohan can contend with a being that his stronger younger battle ready SS1 self was getting squeezed to death against and had to go SS2 to defeat.