Are Episode of Bardock and Tarble OVA official parts of DBZ?

[Polyphase Avatron]

I think only the stuff written by Toriyama is canon. That means:

- Original manga
- Son Goku and his friends return special
- BoG
- Jaco the Galactic Patrolman

Everything else I don't count as canon, although I still like some of the stuff in it and use its ideas.

[Low Tone G]

I like this opinion the most.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I think only the stuff written by Toriyama is canon. That means:

- Original manga
- Son Goku and his friends return special
- BoG
- Jaco the Galactic Patrolman

Everything else I don't count as canon, although I still like some of the stuff in it and use its ideas.

There is also Dragon Ball Online, with which Toriyama was heavily involved in its story & designs.

[VegettoEX]

I think only the stuff written by Toriyama is canon. That means:

- Original manga
- Son Goku and his friends return special
- BoG
- Jaco the Galactic Patrolman

Everything else I don't count as canon, although I still like some of the stuff in it and use its ideas.

While that's totally fine, the question is: to what degree does Toriyama have to "be involved" or have "written" it for it to tip the scales for you?

For the JSAT special, he provided the original idea, but it was Takao Koyama that actually wrote the special. For Battle of Gods, the rough ideas were already in place, and then Toriyama rewrote what was there for the surrounding story.

In neither case did he completely, in total, and independently of anyone else, "write" them as he did with, say, Jaco.

So, as I often like to ask, what does it take?

[Low Tone G]

Toriyama hinted that he doesn't consider EOB canon in a recent interview. He hints that he views Bardock a low-level warrior, not a Super Saiyan, and also says that Bardock died some time ago, and not in the distant past.

So, personally in my view canon are:
1.The Original DB manga
2.Dragonball - JUMP Super Anime Tour Special - Yo! The Return of Son-Goku and Friends!! from 2008 - just because Tarble was mentioned in B.O.G. and it is based on Toriyama's idea
3.Battle of Gods theatrical movie, as he was the one who completely write the story and made the movie-original characters' design
4.Jaco the Galactic Partolman manga

[DBZGTKOSDH]

He hints that he views Bardock a low-level warrior, not a Super Saiyan

That was an answer about Bardock's power in Episode of Bardock, which makes Bardock a low-class warrior that can turn Super Saiyan.

and also says that Bardock died some time ago, and not in the distant past.

No, he says that Bardock has been dead for quite some time, which is true even if Bardock died with Planet Vegeta, or if he died in the distant past.

[Low Tone G]

That was an answer about Bardock's power in Episode of Bardock, which makes Bardock a low-class warrior that can turn Super Saiyan.

Hm...Interesting.... What about Goku then? He was also a low-class warrior but he was everytime above Prince Vegeta who was the stongest Elite warrior before Frieza saga...

No, he says that Bardock has been dead for quite some time, which is true even if Bardock died with Planet Vegeta, or if he died in the distant past.

Yeah, could be the both... But if Bardock died in the distant past by natural causes(as he had no other foes after defeating Chilled, and at least not yet revealed), then Shenlon can not resurrect him... Like Toriyama says if the Bardock was killed then he could be resurrerced even ifthat was 50 years ago.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Hm...Interesting.... What about Goku then? He was also a low-class warrior but he was everytime above Prince Vegeta who was the stongest Elite warrior before Freeza saga...

Goku's BP at that point wasn't that of a low-class warrior anymore, but he was still considered one because he never got promoted (obviously). But Toriyama was asked about Bardock's BP, and he said that he was in the top fighters of the low-class warriors, but still not a middle-class, meaning that his power wasn't that of a middle-class or an elite warrior.

Yeah, could be the both... But if Bardock died in the distant past by natural causes(as he had no other foes after defeating Chilled, and at least not yet revealed), then Shenlon can not resurrect him... Like Toriyama says if the Bardock was killed then he could be resurrerced even ifthat was 50 years ago.

We don't know if Bardock died from natural causes, and since he is a fighter, it's possible that he died in battle.

[Low Tone G]

But Toriyama was asked about Bardock's BP, and he said that he was in the top fighters of the low-class warriors, but still not a middle-class, meaning that his power wasn't that of a middle-class or an elite warrior.

So in Toriyama's view a Super Saiyan Bardock is just a top low-class fighter, when it's obviously that SSJ Bardock would trash Oozaru Prince Vegeta? I think he meant Bardock's level when he fought Freeza... Bardock base strenght could be only 10.000(but personally I can not believe it, after that he survived the blast of Freeza, counting the zenkai), but his SSJ it's still usable. All these are too vague...

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So in Toriyama's view a Super Saiyan Bardock is just a top low-class fighter, when it's obviously that SSJ Bardock would trash Oozaru Prince Vegeta? I think he meant Bardock's level when he fought Freeza... Bardock base strenght could be only 10.000(but personally I can not believe it, after that he survived the blast of Freeza, counting the zenkai), but his SSJ it's still usable. All these are too vague...

In Toriyama's mind, Bardock seems to weaker than Nappa, since Bardock isn't even a middle-class, while Nappa was an elite by the time he fought on Earth.

Also, Bardock wasn't even hit from Freeza's blast in the EoB manga. He was only caught in the explosion of the planet.

[SSDBZGOD]

I refuse EOB to be canon, due to having even greater flaws than the show itself. In the special, they lack explanation on how Bardock was even able to go back in time though fans can make some assumptions. However, why is it that his headband is seen floating in space during the original Bardock special but reappears in the EOB OVA? Also, not to mention his telekinesis powers completely dimmed away in this OVA. As for the Yo Son Goku special, I could make that as canon because there aren't as many flaws and it can fit very well into the story-line. Aside from the fact that Vegeta does not mention he has another family member roaming around space somewhere and mentions to Goku during his death at the hands of Freeza (and also after the appearance of Future Trunks) that he, Gohan and Goku are the only Saiyans left.

[TheGmGoken]

I refuse EOB to be canon, due to having even greater flaws than the show itself. In the special, they lack explanation on how Bardock was even able to go back in time though fans can make some assumptions. However, why is it that his headband is seen floating in space during the original Bardock special but reappears in the EOB OVA? Also, not to mention his telekinesis powers completely dimmed away in this OVA. As for the Yo Son Goku special, I could make that as canon because there aren't as many flaws and it can fit very well into the story-line. Aside from the fact that Vegeta does not mention he has another family member roaming around space somewhere and mentions to Goku during his death at the hands of Freeza (and also after the appearance of Future Trunks) that he, Gohan and Goku are the only Saiyans left.

Tarble is weak. Most Saiyans probably thought he died already. Also seeing how he treats Gohan for being" weak" during Boo arc I'm sure VEGETA didn't want to mention his weak brother cause he's embarrassed.

[Duo]

I just figured that Vegeta didn't know his brother was alive until he showed up on Earth, and just happened to not care all that much for whatever reason. Saiyans do have a weak sense of family, after all.

[Low Tone G]

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
In Toriyama's mind, Bardock seems to weaker than Nappa, since Bardock isn't even a middle-class, while Nappa was an elite by the time he fought on Earth.

Really? Weaker than Nappa? That would mean that Bardock was below 5000. No, in the Bardock, Father of Goku TV special was mentioned that Bardock power level wasn't that low, and that special is canon therefore was included in the Original DB manga, because Alkira like it very much. And Bardock was the leader, and the others were about 5000.
And Frieza was scared of Bardock because his power level seemed to grow quickly. But if you are True then the TV special contained lots of contradictory fillers in Toriyama's view. But if Bardock didn't go to the Planet Kanassa, then how did he know about Freeza's intentions to destory his planet, if wasn't given with gitf of seeing the future? Because in the manga he was included when he was about to "stop" Frieza in the space.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Just because one event from the special made it to the manga doesn't mean that the whole special is "canon". Toriyama's Jaco The Galactic Patrolman & DBZ: Battle of Gods contradict the TV Special by having Planet Vegeta getting destroyed when Goku was 2 years old, and we have Goku being sent to Earth as a 2 year old, capable of fighting, and even wore a Saiyan armor. Plus, we have Toriyama's views about Bardock's BP contradicting the special as well, and even DB: Episode of Bardock retcons events from the TV Special, by having Bardock's Saiyan armor in good condition instead of broken against Freeza, by having Dodoria & Zarbon on Freeza's side in space, by having Bardock speaking with Freeza, Zarbon, and Dodoria, by having Freeza using a different technique to destroy the planet, with Bardock not getting hit by it and not dying. And EoB seems to be treated by Shueisha as if it takes place in the same continuity with the manga, since they covered it in the manga-guidebook Chozenshuu #1, and the volume release of it is designed as if it's an extra volume of the original manga.

[Low Tone G]

Toriyama's Jaco The Galactic Patrolman & DBZ: Battle of Gods contradict the TV Special by having Planet Vegeta getting destroyed when Goku was 2 years old

Not necessarily. Beerus said that the Oracle fish told him about the SSJ God 39 years ago. And for Jaco manga could be also true that the travel to Earth was very long.

And EoB seems to be treated by Shueisha as if it takes place in the same continuity with the manga, since they covered it in the manga-guidebook Chozenshuu #1, and the volume release of it is designed as if it's an extra volume of the original manga.

So are implying that Episode of Bardock could be treated "more" canon than the Frist Bardock TV special?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Not necessarily. Beerus said that the Oracle fish told him about the SSJ God 39 years ago. And for Jaco manga could be also true that the travel to Earth was very long.

The trip has never been implied to be more than a year in anything before Jaco, if you decide to use that theory. Previous manga based content (Daizenshu, Dragon Ball Online, etc), though not material created solely by Toriyama, has Goku arriving on the planet in AGE 737.

There are other plot holes with that theory besides Goku's age as well. Like, Beerus also asks if Planet Vegeta was destroyed while he was asleep, but he'd have been awake for the destruction if it happened in AGE 737, because he went to sleep in AGE 739.

[Low Tone G]

Yeah... The only material that has minor plot-holes is the Jump Special of 2008. But even if Jaco created solely by Toriyama and teis in the Dragon Ball universe, Goku being able to eat and walk alone at the age of several months could be a plot-hole. But can be explained as he is a saiya-jin, so he evolves a lot quicker. And for Saiyan armor, it's very likely that was attached along with Goku and was dragged on by grandpa Son Gohan himself as Goku was naked like we did saw it in the Bardock TV special.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

But even if Jaco created solely by Toriyama and teis in the Dragon Ball universe, Goku being able to eat and walk alone at the age of several months could be a plot-hole. But can be explained as he is a saiya-jin, so he evolves a lot quicker. And for Saiyan armor, it's very likely that was attached along with Goku and was dragged by grandpa Son Gohan himself as Goku was naked like we did saw it in the Bardock TV special.

No, that's what we're saying. Trying to use AGE 737 makes Jaco not fit, and using AGE 739 make a decent amount of other stuff not fit. Jaco can't take place in AGE 737. It has to be AGE 739 and Goku has to be two years old, because the manga is stated to take place ~10 years before Dragon Ball and Bluma's age in Jaco fits in with her official birth year. So, Toriyama has now decided on a specific year for the destruction of planet Vegeta in his own manga continuity.

Also, both Goku's armor and Gohan are scuffed up from their brawl, meaning it was on him when they fought. None of the house seems to be wrecked though (besides a plate), so it didn't happen indoors. In all likelihood, Goku exited the pod himself, fully clothed, and went on to attack Son Gohan. After defeating the boy, he dragged him to the house for food and offered him a home.

[Bussani]

If you take the fact that DBZ: Battle of Gods takes place in the official history as that it takes place in the manga continuity, then the JSAT Special would be dragged in as well, since Tarble is mentioned. I would also chose the manga adaptation of the special over the animated special, because Toriyama liked that one more.

That last part raises an interesting point, I think. Just because Tarble is part of Battle of Gods's canon doesn't necessarily mean the story he appeared in is. As far as Toriyama or the writers of Battle of Gods are concerned, their meeting with Tarble could have happened slightly or totally differently. It's sort of up to them, and as always, we can only really make assumptions. This is just another reason that canon can be so up in the air and fluid.

For that matter, maybe it's just because I watch a lot of things like Super Sentai and Kamen Rider, but I think the actual creators care a lot less about canon than the fans do when it comes to shows like this. Other times they can make mistakes and try to link one story with another without realizing that doing so causes a plothole, and that only serves to confuse fans who take it all seriously and want to figure out how it all fits together. Sometimes it can be like a jigsaw with the wrong pieces mixed in. This mostly only happens when the franchise develops beyond the original creator, of course, and it's probably a result of everyone--even the various creators themselves--having their own opinions of what is and isn't canon.