When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

[Saiga]

This is all getting WAY too complicated, if you ask me. I continue to be honestly flabbergasted that there's such debate over something that's so incredibly easy to figure out just by using your eyes to look at the pictures in the comic. Toriyama drew these forms with a downright alarming amount of consistency, and even gave an in-universe demonstration through Goku. What more could anyone possibly need?

For that to make sense.

[Fionordequester]

I dunno, I think Kaboom gave a pretty solid explanation on the first page. What exactly is wrong with it?

[RandomGuy96]

I mean, don't get me wrong, I agree with you on Gohan being SSJ NOW because of your brilliant argument in your first post,

How is that argument brilliant again? The whole thing relies on Gohan having to take time to turn SS2, when he plainly showed that he could do it without any prep. He sat around for a while deciding whether or not to do it, then he said "okay, I'll do it". Immediately after he decided to do it, he transformed instantly. No time needed, he went SS2 the second he set his mind to it.

Also, no one ever comments on the disability, and Goku tells Gohan to try to get a rage boost to fight Dabra instead of saying "this guy's a total weakling, just go Super Saiyan 2 and kick his ass".

Plus there's all the other stuff that's incompatible with that theory, like Gohan saying he needs to be a SS2 to do anything to Fat Buu then being awed at fasto one-shotting Dabra, Kaioshin stating that the power he sensed from Gohan (vs Dabra and Buu, supposedly a SS) was greater than the power he sensed from Gohan at the tournament (SS2), the guidebooks just outright saying Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 and Dabra's BP = Cell's BP (you'd think that repeating essentially the same point twice in the same paragraph and then putting that paragraph in two separate guides would finally solve this, but nope), Goku saying Dabra's "probably about as strong as Cell" one minute and then "he's way stronger than I thought" the next, etc.

This is all getting WAY too complicated, if you ask me. I continue to be honestly flabbergasted that there's such debate over something that's so incredibly easy to figure out just by using your eyes to look at the pictures in the comic. Toriyama drew these forms with a downright alarming amount of consistency, and even gave an in-universe demonstration through Goku. What more could anyone possibly need?

Kaioshin outright said Gohan when fighting Dabra was greater than Gohan at the tournament, and Goku said Dabra was probably about as strong as Cell before correcting himself and saying Dabra was actually way stronger than he first thought (that is, he's way stronger than "about as strong as Cell"). Additionally, two guidebooks also said Dabra = Cell and Gohan (vs Dabra) = SS2. I agree, this is incredibly easy to figure out, I don't know how it's gone on this long.

His hair against Dabra and Buu is also different from the times he was explicitly identified as just being a SS, so this argument doesn't make sense even if you're going solely by the art.

[Saiga]

I dunno, I think Kaboom gave a pretty solid explanation on the first page. What exactly is wrong with it?

I already explained it before:

I really, really don't buy that he couldn't transform, or that he couldn't find an opportunity to transform because it's simply not that hard. At the Budokai, he's calm, and his transformation seemingly takes no time at all - once he actually decides to transform, it happens. The crowd complaining and all of that only happened while he was still uncertain on whether he should transform at all, not while he was actually trying. Plus Dabra blasted him into the water, and sat around mocking him at times. It's clear that Dabra was not constantly putting pressure on him like what would have had to happen for Gohan to have no opportunity to transform. This has always been an extremely unsatisfying explanation for me.

Kaboom's explanation is entirely founded on a misinterpretation.

[Kaboom]

Still just shaking my head in confusion and exasperation. It's all just one unnecessary complication after another.

If Gohan were drawn as fighting someone in his base form, I doubt anyone would try to argue that he was actually a Super Saiyan because they think "it makes more sense that way." That's really how ridiculous this all seems to me, more and more so every time it comes up.

"Gohan is a Super Saiyan because he was drawn as one." End of story, as far as I'm concerned. Any speculation as to "why" or "how" (including mine, which is just my preferred explanation and not intended as "proof" of anything) is just extra fluff.

[Fionordequester]

How is that argument brilliant again? The whole thing relies on Gohan having to take time to turn SS2, when he plainly showed that he could do it without any prep. He sat around for a while deciding whether or not to do it, then he said "okay, I'll do it". Immediately after he decided to do it, he transformed instantly.

Frieza's fight also took only 5 minutes, supposedly, despite the panels rather suggesting otherwise. Plus, Gohan was already in SSJ by the time he decided to transform to SSJ2, which was not the case when he went all-out against Buu, and needed to react immediately, so the jump to SSJ2 could've taken much longer in that scenario. And then of course, there's always the possibility that SSJ2 was simply too hard to maintain for too long, or when doing something really extraneous like firing a Kamehameha.

If Gohan were drawn as fighting someone in his base form, I doubt anyone would try to argue that he was actually a Super Saiyan because they think "it makes more sense that way." That's really how ridiculous this all seems, more and more so every time it comes up.

The difference between normal form and SSJ1 is that there are very clear differences between them, which is not the case with Gohan's SSJ1 and SSJ2 forms. Yes, Gohan didn't have sparks, but he was also incredibly weak for a SSJ2, and it came before the point where Akira Toriyama gave us the explanation that Goku gave to Buu, therefore, Akira Toriyama, as disorganized as he was, may not have had such a clear cut system in his head yet.

And before you mention him having sparks at the tournament, that was at a time when Gohan was completely fresh, and not doing any Kamehameha's. On the other hand, we didn't see his fight with Dabura until a large chunk of the way in (meaning Gohan might've lost a lot of energy), and against Buu's ball, he was firing a Kamehameha, which may have blown away the sparks.

[RandomGuy96]

Freeza's fight also took only 5 minutes, supposedly, despite the panels rather suggesting otherwise. Plus, Gohan was already in SSJ by the time he decided to transform to SSJ2, which was not the case when he went all-out against Buu, and needed to react immediately, so the jump to SSJ2 could've taken much longer in that scenario. And then of course, there's always the possibility that SSJ2 was simply too hard to maintain for too long, or when doing something really extraneous like firing a Kamehameha.

Uh, no? He was in base form before deciding to transform. Once he does, he says "okay, I'll transform, but I'll transform into a state beyond SS". Cut to Kibito's shocked face. The very next panel is Gohan transforming, and in every panel after that, he's already transformed.

[Fionordequester]

Uh, no? He was in base form before deciding to transform. Once he does, he says "okay, I'll transform, but I'll transform into a state beyond SS". Cut to Kibito's shock face. The very next panel is Gohan transforming, and in every panel after that, he's already transformed.

Again, the jump from SSJ1 to SSJ2 probably wouldn't be as hard as a jump from regular form to SSJ2. And of course, SSJ2 simply may have been too hard to maintain once Gohan tried actually using it in a fight, the same way Kaioken couldn't be held for that long. It'd make sense if Gohan hadn't really practiced with the form.

[RandomGuy96]

Uh, no? He was in base form before deciding to transform. Once he does, he says "okay, I'll transform, but I'll transform into a state beyond SS". Cut to Kibito's shock face. The very next panel is Gohan transforming, and in every panel after that, he's already transformed.

Again, the jump from SSJ1 to SSJ2 probably wouldn't be as hard as a jump from regular form to SSJ2. And of course, SSJ2 simply may have been too hard to maintain once Gohan tried actually using it in a fight, the same way Kaioken couldn't be held for that long. It'd make sense if Gohan hadn't really practiced with the form.

There was no jump from SS1 to SS2. He instantly jumped from base to SS2.

[Fionordequester]

There was no jump from SS1 to SS2. He instantly jumped from base to SS2.

Really? From what I remembered, he went to SSJ1 in front of Kibito, then said "you want more?", then went to SSJ2 from there.

[RandomGuy96]

There was no jump from SS1 to SS2. He instantly jumped from base to SS2.

Really? From what I remembered, he went to SSJ1 in front of Kibito, then said "you want more?", then went to SSJ2 from there.

Nope.

Chapter: 443 (DBZ 249), P9.4
Kibito: “Become that ‘Super Saiyan’ thing! I want to test you to see if you really will be able to help us.”

Chapter: 444 (DBZ 250), P3.2
Context: before Gohan becomes a Super Saiyan 2.
Gohan: “Well then, I’ll become one, just like you want, though I don’t know why…To top it off, should I go so far as to become a Super Saiyan that has surpassed the Super Saiyan wall?”

(the wording and context should make it obvious, but I'd like to point out he's still in base form when he says that)

Then Kibito looks surprised, then we get a transformation panel, then he's a SS2 for every panel after.

There's also some rather blatant and simple SS2-related quotes that I don't think should be overlooked:

Goku: "7 years ago there was a guy called ‘Cell’…[Dabra]’s probably about as strong as him…”------> "He’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”. I guess "I think he's probably as strong as Cell" and "he's way stronger than I thought he was" was supposed to mean "Dabra's probably nowhere near as strong as Cell" and "Yeah, Cell could totally one-shot this guy".

Goku: "Get angry, Gohan…Remember how you got angry and fought Cell, and draw out all of the power you have. If you do that, you won’t lose to anyone in the entire world! Not to anyone…". So apparently "draw out all of your power through your rage" was really just Goku's way of saying "this guy's a total chump, just easily turn SS2 like I just saw you do ten minutes ago"?

(SS2) Kaioshin: “…No, even so this is magnificent energy, more so than I imagined…I wonder if I’ll be able to stop this power…” ----> (supposedly SS, after Kibito doubts Gohan can pull the Z-sword after sensing him earlier) “You were dead, Kibito, so you didn’t get to see Gohan here’s unbelievably tremendous power.”

[Fionordequester]

Really? From what I remembered, he went to SSJ1 in front of Kibito, then said "you want more?", then went to SSJ2 from there.

Nope.

Chapter: 443 (DBZ 249), P9.4
Kibito: “Become that ‘Super Saiyan’ thing! I want to test you to see if you really will be able to help us.”

Chapter: 444 (DBZ 250), P3.2
Context: before Gohan becomes a Super Saiyan 2.
Gohan: “Well then, I’ll become one, just like you want, though I don’t know why…To top it off, should I go so far as to become a Super Saiyan that has surpassed the Super Saiyan wall?”

(the wording and context should make it obvious, but I'd like to point out he's still in base form when he says that)

Then Kibito looks surprised, then we get a transformation panel, then he's a SS2 for every panel after.

Oh...huh. That was quite a bit different in the anime, wasn't it? Huh...well shoot. What do you say to that Kaboom?

[Kaboom]

What do you say to that Kaboom?

He still spent considerable time building up power before transforming, and we know he doesn't need to do that for Super Saiyan 1. It seems to me like he intended to go Super Saiyan 2 even before announcing he'd do so.

[miguelnuva1]

Goku says Dabura is tougher then he thought at first, not stronger I believe.

[RandomGuy96]

Goku says Dabura is tougher then he thought at first, not stronger I believe.

No, according to Herms he says stronger. Way stronger.

So, to recap, Goku guesses that he's about as strong as Cell, says his guess was off and Dabra's actually way stronger than he thought, and then a guidebook comes and says that Dabra and Cell have the same battle power, then another guidebook comes along and says the same.

He still spent considerable time building up power before transforming, and we know he doesn't need to do that for Super Saiyan 1. It seems to me like he intended to go Super Saiyan 2 even before announcing he'd do so.

When is this "building up power" thing ever stated or implied? He has an aura around him, sure, but that's never stated or implied to be related to the transformation. He doesn't decide to transform until he tells Kibito, and in the very next panel, he does. Neither Goku nor Vegeta comment on him not being able to go SS2 at will being an issue (Goku even tells him he just needs a rage boost to beat Dabra rather than saying "go SS2"), even though both of them + Gohan comment on his other disabilities, such as his decreased strength, rusty fighting instincts, and inability to get rage boosts.

[Kaboom]

When is this "building up power" thing ever stated or implied? He has an aura around him, sure, but that's never stated or implied to be related to the transformation.

Seems like the most obvious explanation for the visuals to me.

He doesn't decide to transform until he tells Kibito, and in the very next panel, he does.

No, that's when he announces that he will transform, but he seems to decide doing so is unavoidable a page or two before that. Right before he starts exuding an aura, evidently in preparation to transform.

Neither Goku nor Vegeta comment on him not being able to go SS2 at will being an issue (Goku even tells him he just needs a rage boost to beat Dabra rather than saying "go SS2"), even though both of them + Gohan comment on his other disabilities, such as his decreased strength, rusty fighting instincts, and inability to get rage boosts.

Because the focus is on Gohan's skill, not his power. Since Dabra's easily weaker than Super Saiyan Gohan, then Gohan's power isn't an issue. Gohan shouldn't NEED to go Super Saiyan 2 to beat him, and that he could easily beat him if he did so goes without saying.

It's like chastising someone for being such a bad fighter that they're unable to beat a scrawny 10-year-old in a fistfight. The fact that they could easily beat him if they had a knife isn't worth pointing out.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Why do you think they call it Super Saiyan FULL POWER instead of using the original “Grade” scheme;

They just felt like Grade 4 didn't suit I guess. They are still using a different name to describe it though.

why it’s not included with the other Super Saiyan forms in Daizenshuu 7;

Because it's still the regular Super Saiyan. It's an upgraded form of regular Super Saiyan.

And also, Daizenshuu 7 isn't perfect, there are missing techniques, and characters from the character list.

why in the manga, Goku establishes that they stick with "regular Super Saiyan"; and why Vegeta reprimands Trunks for even suggesting a new form? Ponder that for a lo~~~ng time, until it gets through.

Super Saiyan Grade 1 & Super Saiyan Grade 4/Full Power are both one form, but they are different at the same time. SSFP is SS upgraded, it replaces the old, flawed SS form.

You forgot to list the theory of FPSSJ being a separate form.

How is a stated fact in 3 guidebooks a theory?

What do you mean by “already” if Daizenshuu 2 preceded the release of Daizenshuu 7, where they don’t even acknowledge it? Once again you’re picking details out of their respective context in order to make that theory work.

I am not picking details, you choose to ignore the fact that the standing aura appears only in Super Saiyans/Namekians/Cell, changes from form to form, and is even acknowledged by D7.

Based on your own subjective experience?

Er, yes? You still haven't given me any reason to believe that the standing aura isn't a trait of the SS forms.

This is why you shouldn’t be so quick to convince yourself that your opinions are fact:

Spoiler:

Your point with that?

You’re using tautology to dodge the question. You were asked for the in-universe explanation of why that is, what constitutionally makes them appear that way? I'll assume you don't have one, and won’t keep pressing you for it since I get the impression you'll keep responding just for the sake of it. If there can be no further progress then the discussion ends with this.

What the hell are you talking about?! I didn't dodge any question, the answer about what makes them display a standing aura is the fact that they are Super Saiyans/Namekians/Cell, and the reason sparks appear is because they are Super Saiyan 2/3. It's extremely simple, it's shown (the manga clearly shows the changes), stated (the aura being a trait of SS, the aura changing for SSFP, and the sparks appearing for SS2), implied (Piccolo starts getting an aura as a Super Namekian, Cell getting similar power-ups to the SS ones).

[Son_Gohan]

Power has absolutely nothing to do with the aura being intense or having sparks. Future Cell just stayed longer in his 1st form than Cell did, which caused him to master his "Super Saiyan" form, like he managed to do in his Perfect form.

In the manga, every Super Saiyan form has its own aura, and D2 acknowledges this, since it mentions the new aura of Goku being a trait of the Super Saiyan Full Power form.

Super Saiyan
Super Saiyan Grade 2
Super Saiyan Grade 3
Super Saiyan Full Power
Super Saiyan 2
Super Saiyan 3

Super Saiyan Full Power is regular Super Saiyan, you speak of it as if it’s a separate form and it makes an already subjective response even more convoluted.

Daizenshuu 2 & 10 makes a distinction between Super Saiyan & Super Saiyan Full Power, and there is even the Trunks TV Special Anime Comic, which has an extra sections about the Super Saiyan forms, and calls normal Super Saiyan as Super Saiyan Grade 1, and Super Saiyan Full Power as Super Saiyan Grade 4. So, as far as guidebooks go, it is a separate form that replaced the old SS form.

What theories? Whatever I've said so far are either stated facts or logical conclusions.

• When a Saiyan transforms, each form has its own unique aura, and whenever he transforms into a Super Saiyan 2 or Super Saiyan 3, he has sparks. It's logical to assume that these auras are traits of their respective forms.
• Piccolo starts displaying a standing aura when he became a Super Namekian, which is stated to be similar to Super Saiyan. It's logical to assume that the aura is there because he is a Super Namekian.
• Cell displays the SS aura in his 1st & 2nd forms, the SSFP aura in his Perfect form, the SSG3 aura when he does the same thing as Trunks did, and a SS2 aura when he powered up like Gohan. Since Cell has Saiyans, it's logical to assume that his power-ups are related to the Super Saiyan forms of the Saiyans.
• Vegeta & F. Trunks understand what Goku & Gohan did after they exited from the RoSaT, so it's logical to assume that they mastered the form as well, and they even display the new aura Goku & Gohan started to display ever since they mastered SS. Goten & Trunks also display this aura, and Goten even displays "round" eyes as a SS, meaning that he has mastered the form as well, along with Trunks most likely, since they trained together. F. Cell also displays that aura, and he was searching for #17 & #18 for some time, so it's logical to assume that he mastered his version of SS as well.

The aura is already stated to be a trait of the form in D7:

Spoiler:

Super Saiyan
Characteristics
The ultimate Saiyan warrior that surpasses the limits of a regular Saiyan. Originally, the existence of this form outside of legend was doubted even among Saiyans, but in reality any Saiyan that possesses a high battle power above the standard level is capable of becoming a Super Saiyan. Possessing a calm heart, sensing extreme danger, feeling strong anger or sadness, or a danger to the Saiyan race itself seem to be states that are the essential keys to transforming. The outward signs of the transformation include an aura, golden hair that stands straight up, and sharp, hawk-like eyes with emerald-green pupils. In addition, a battle power 50 times that of normal is proof of the legendary mightiest warrior.

And now it's stated in the new form gives a different aura. I don't see how power is involved here.


Except that no one shares the same aura when just standing?

why it’s not included with the other Super Saiyan forms in Daizenshuu 7;

Because it's still the regular Super Saiyan. It's an upgraded form of regular Super Saiyan.

why in the manga, Goku establishes that they stick with "regular Super Saiyan"; and why Vegeta reprimands Trunks for even suggesting a new form? Ponder that for a lo~~~ng time, until it gets through.

Super Saiyan Grade 1 & Super Saiyan Grade 4/Full Power are both one form[!?], but they are different at the same time. SSFP is SS upgraded, it replaces the old, flawed SS form.

[kuartus4]

No, according to Herms he says stronger. Way stronger.

So, to recap, Goku guesses that he's about as strong as Cell, says his guess was off and Dabra's actually way stronger than he thought, and then a guidebook comes and says that Dabra and Cell have the same battle power, then another guidebook comes along and says the same.

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? He’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Goku: “He really did slack off!"

Goku says that Dabra is stronger than he thought because he possessed magical abilities. Goku says this in response to Dabra using some magical illusion technique to fool Gohan and take him by surprise with an energy blast.

[sekzee]

Which looked just like the after-image technique used in Dragonball.