Do you think Dragon Ball had too much perv moments ?

[Cipher]

You could apply that logic to pretty much anything. Someone on a diet? Better remove all the scenes of Goku and Buu eating food. Someone going through anger management? Better get rid of all the yelling and fighting. Someone who went to war and has PTSD might get into DB so we better get rid of the RRA and all guns so he doesn't have a flash back.

I don't this because it assumes either all things are equally harmful or nothing is. And that's not true.

It's not about triggering an individual. It's about contributing to a sense of societal jovialness over something that's really not funny at all. And to pre-empt yet another argument that it's okay to treat anything with levity -- it's important to recognize the difference between something people at large actually do acknowledge is horrible (violence, murder, etc.) and things people still dismiss regularly (molestation and any number of things women have to put up with daily). All issues are not the same issue.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

It's not about triggering an individual. It's about contributing to a sense of societal jovialness over something that's really not funny at all. And to pre-empt yet another argument that it's okay to treat anything with levity -- it's important to recognize the difference between something people at large actually do acknowledge is horrible (violence, murder, etc.) and things people still dismiss regularly (molestation and any number of things women have to put up with daily). All issues are not the same issue.

You've said in a previous post that people regularly dismiss rape and molestation, and now you've cut that down to just molestation, so just for the sake of promoting the discussion, which is it and can you provide any evidence to back those claims up?

In other words, TV shows and the like merely channel what is already there, just like they do with everything else. That's my whole point.

Stuff like that happens because people are racist or whatever is wrong with them. If TV shows and the like didn't exist, people would still be racist. Someone that is triggered by a TV show would most likely be triggered by something else. And guess what? People like that can't be isolated from all possible triggers, they can't be isolated from reality.

Blaming TV shows, videogames, movies, mangas, etc, is incredibly short sighted since any possible influence they may have by their own is the least important cause of undesirable behavior of them all and is pretty much negligible compared to the real underlying causes of such behavior.

So because people are going to be racist no matter what, it's okay to create TV shows that promote racism?

[Black_Anime_Fan]

I think there were more pervy moments than there needed to be. I love it.

[rereboy]

So because people are going to be racist no matter what, it's okay to create TV shows that promote racism?

You misunderstood my point.

Anything that feels out of the norm, as in too much, will be shot down. A racist tv show survives in a racist society. In a society much less racist, it doesn't. TV shows and the like simply channel what already is present in the society. Anything that simply goes too much agaisnt it, especially in a way that is considered offensive, is shot down.

[Kamiccolo9]

Blacks were mistreated because America was founded by British people and the British weren't known for being open to other cultures same with Australia and Aboriginals.

There was racism in the Americas way before the British showed up.

[Mewzard]

Blacks were mistreated because America was founded by British people and the British weren't known for being open to other cultures same with Australia and Aboriginals.

There was racism in the Americas way before the British showed up.

Yeah, the Spaniards did a number on South and Central America (currently in Latin American History class) before Britain started founding colonies in the New World. Disease, conquest, the burning of ancient texts, a lot of bad stuff happened to the Americas.

On the matter of "perv" moments, Dragon Ball had quite a few, but it was just a part of what Toriyama found funny. The man also loved poop jokes (his sense of humor certainly wasn't the most sophisticated).

[Ringworm128]

So because people are going to be racist no matter what, it's okay to create TV shows that promote racism?

Just because something is treated lightly or made fun of doesn't mean it promotes it. I doubt Toriyama thought "geez molestation in real life would be just dandy, I'm gonna promote the idea with my manga." Just like how John Romero probably didn't think "the world needs more gun violence" when he made Doom.

and things people still dismiss regularly

Again, since when is molestation treated lightly? As I said apart from child molesters they're considered the worst by most people.

[Cipher]

You've said in a previous post that people regularly dismiss rape and molestation, and now you've cut that down to just molestation, so just for the sake of promoting the discussion, which is it and can you provide any evidence to back those claims up?

I mean, sexual assault (I've probably waffled on molestation/rape in this thread because both are sexual assault and there's no hard line) is horribly underreported and notoriously difficult to prove, our culture slut-shames like crazy and general fear that such incidents will happen to them and not be taken seriously is something that weighs on the minds of most women I've ever talked to seriously (not that I can speak for them). But yes, I'm sure I could find something more statistics-based to back that up as plenty of voices have spoken to these concerns.

[Fionordequester]

http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/show ... ost8170840

Thought that might be relevant, and helpful to Cipher.

[TheGmGoken]

The more I read from this thread. The more I wonder. What if DB was made with Highschool of the Dead, Rosario Vampire, Needless, Yoko from TTGL, or Desert Punk fan-service. I'm glad we just got the amount we did. That would be horrible.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

I mean, sexual assault (I've probably waffled on molestation/rape in this thread because both are sexual assault and there's no hard line)

I think it's common sense that rape involves sexual intercourse and molestation does not.

is horribly underreported and notoriously difficult to prove, our culture slut-shames like crazy and general fear that such incidents will happen to them and not be taken seriously is something that weighs on the minds of most women I've ever talked to seriously (not that I can speak for them). But yes, I'm sure I could find something more statistics-based to back that up as plenty of voices have spoken to these concerns.

That would help, because at this point it's all sounding fairly anecdotal. You're making some fairly big claims here ("horribly underreported", "shut-shames like crazy").

Anything that feels out of the norm, as in too much, will be shot down.

What do you mean by "shot down"? Condemned? It's possible for something to be condemned by the mainstream and yet still supported by a small number of people. Outlawed? It's possible for something to circulate illegally or on the fringe, as on the internet.

[dprez]

Not enough. No just kidding but seriously from the start it was hilarious to me and I thought it fit perfectly. It's part of the charm of Dragon Ball. Japan is just like that anyway it seams haha...

[Kid Buu]

To answer the thread question: I don't think so. Compared to some other modern day anime I've seen (Sekirei, High School of the Dead, and the anime version of Rosario + Vampire, etc) the series is actually pretty tame.

[rereboy]

What do you mean by "shot down"? Condemned? It's possible for something to be condemned by the mainstream and yet still supported by a small number of people. Outlawed? It's possible for something to circulate illegally or on the fringe, as on the internet.

It either doesn't have the ratings/audience to keep going or, if its offensive, its literally taken down, or it only exists as a small thing that only some people with radical views care about (like a internet blog or something).

And something little with a small audience that only circulates illegally or on the fringe, as on the internet, is so not what I was talking about... I was talking about how its wrong and short-sighted to blame entertainment for some undesirable behavior instead of the actual real and importance causes, since entertainment only acts as a channel for what already exists in the society and any effect it has in actually creating/propagating undesirable behavior is negligible compared to the causes that actually created that behavior within the society in the first place.

You misunderstood completely what I was trying to say by stating that I thought that it was OK for racist programs to exist, and I explained that was not my point at all and that, since they channel the society, they naturally do not prosper if society at large doesn't agree with that entertainment.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

I was talking about how its wrong and short-sighted to blame entertainment for some undesirable behavior instead of the actual real and importance causes, since entertainment only acts as a channel for what already exists in the society and any effect it has in actually creating/propagating undesirable behavior is negligible compared to the causes that actually created that behavior within the society in the first place.

But it isn't negligible. Media play an important role in people's behavior. For example, studies have linked violent video games to aggression in young people. No reasonable person would say media are the only cause, or even the main cause, but it's a cause that can't be ruled out, especially when it comes to people's well-being. Violence is something most people are against, yet violent video games and movies are readily available. This is obviously because they don't directly promote violence; they simply depict it. The problem arises when children, for whatever reason, struggle to tell the difference between the two.

[Rocketman]

since entertainment only acts as a channel for what already exists in the society and any effect it has in actually creating/propagating undesirable behavior is negligible

I disagree. Entertainment is not the primary cause, obviously, but it is a huge one. Entertainment is the most popular and fastest-spreading way to disseminate information.

[rereboy]

I disagree. Entertainment is not the primary cause, obviously, but it is a huge one. Entertainment is the most popular and fastest-spreading way to disseminate information.

But if you are going to blame entertainment than you might as well blame any way to transmit information. Including talking. See my point? Entertainment, like you said, just transmits the information that is collected ultimately from the society. It just channels it. Whatever really creates the unwanted issues and behavior is almost always something else. Entertainment very rarely creates something by itself because its only well-accepted by the society when its doesn't deviate too much from what society wants and thinks its good. If its not, it never prospers. And again, by this I'm not defending racist shows or whatever, I just don't believe entertainment is really the cause of such things. Its more like a symptom.

[Rocketman]

You think talking can't convince people to do horrific things...?

[Ajay]

You think talking can't convince people to do horrific things...?

If the individual is susceptible to influence on a detrimental level then that's largely the fault of the individual.

Charles Manson convinced people to do horrendous things but those who committed the acts are still mentally unwell and just as at fault.

You can't place the blame entirely on something like media because it managed to trigger something in unwell individuals in the first place.

[Gyt Kaliba]

The problem arises when children, for whatever reason, struggle to tell the difference between the two.

You're right about this, but that's still not entertainment of any kind's fault - that's on the parents. If their child can't tell the difference between what's real and not, than either they haven't done their job as a parent and not taught them to do that (or not allowed them to have 'inappropriate' materials if they can't tell the difference), or there's a greater problem that already exists. Entertainment can be a trigger, yes...but not the cause. And seeing as how anything can be a trigger, it still feels off to me to blame something for existing.

If the individual is susceptible to influence on a detrimental level then that's largely the fault of the individual.

Charles Manson convinced people to do horrendous things but those who committed the acts are still mentally unwell and just as at fault.

You can't place the blame entirely on something like media because it managed to trigger something in unwell individuals in the first place.

Pretty much this, well said.