When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

[Kakarot88]

Kakarot88, Cell was crushing Gohan to death because Gohan refused to fight. In fact, since Goku could fight Cell evenly, and since Gohan is stronger than Goku, Gohan should be stronger than suppressed Cell.

Respectfully, that's not really accurate, SS1 young Gohan after a few rounds could barely contend and definitely could not defeat perfect Cell without becoming SS2.

Chapter: 405 (DBZ 211), P9.1-2
Context: as Cell has Gohan in a bear hug
Cell: “Well, how's this? It hurts, right? Get angry! You don’t want to die like this, do you? Well, what’s the matter? What are you hesitating for!? Your bones will break. There’s no way you could hate fighting this much.”
...
Chapter: 405 (DBZ 211), P12.1
Piccolo: “Don’t forget…! Even if his power is #1, he’s still a kid…!”
Piccolo then says he's going to save Gohan. Goku then yells to Kuririn for a senzu, he's about to go save his dieing son.

...
then while everyone is getting beat up on the cliff by the Cell Juniors, Gohan just stares in bewilderment and thinks to himself how if he really does have hidden power he needs it now. SS1 Gohan says to himself that he wants to beat Cell but he does not know how.

See also:

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P2.3-4
Context: after Gohan powers up
Vegeta: “That brat…How did he get such a gigantic battle power?…This is impossible…!”
Cell: “Looks like what Son Goku said wasn’t a complete bluff…But it seems he overstated things a little when he said you could defeat me…”

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P6.4
Context: after fighting Gohan a little
Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least?”

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P15.4, P16.1
Cell: “I understand perfectly well that you don’t like fighting …But I don’t really know what you mean when you say that you don’t want to kill me. You couldn’t kill me in a hundred years. Well, am I wrong?”

Moreover, Cell was not even at his full power, SS1 Gohan gets trashed by non full power perfect Cell. Non full power perfect Cell was crushing the life out of SS1 Son Gohan. Cell only goes full power after Gohan turns SS2.

Chapter: 409 (DBZ 215), P3.5
Context: after Gohan says he can beat Cell (after Gohan has become SS2)
Cell: “Well then, I’ll show you…! My fearsome true power…!"

Chapter: 409 (DBZ 215), P8.2-4
Context: after Cell powers up
Goku: “S-so we finally get to see Cell fight at full power”
Kuririn: “This ki is so astounding, it’s like the entire Earth is shaking.”
Gohan: “What’s the big deal?”

The biggest problem with Gohan not having transformed into SS2 against Dabra is that it turns the story on its head.
It would mean

• in a fight to the death,
  where if Gohan takes damage it goes to Boo but if Dabra takes damages then it does not go to Boo,
  and Gohan wants to prevent Boo's resurrection,
  Gohan was decidedly, for whatever reason, holding back from going SS2 (or couldn't even though he did a few chapters earlier)
  • even though he has said he that he hates fighting, and seemed only to enjoy it as a sadistic SS2,
    but that here and now Gohan decided to
    • hold back and not go SS2 so he was in SS1 form where does not enjoy fighting,
      take damage which would resurrect boo,
      and enjoy the fight.

To me SS1 Gohan being an SS1 makes less sense than Gohan being at SS2 and having a weaker Ki, because he was weaker.

[kuartus4]

Kakarot88, Cell was crushing Gohan to death because Gohan refused to fight. In fact, since Goku could fight Cell evenly, and since Gohan is stronger than Goku, Gohan should be stronger than suppressed Cell.

Respectfully, that's not really accurate, SS1 young Gohan after a few rounds could barely contend and definitely could not defeat perfect Cell without becoming SS2.

Chapter: 405 (DBZ 211), P9.1-2
Context: as Cell has Gohan in a bear hug
Cell: “Well, how's this? It hurts, right? Get angry! You don’t want to die like this, do you? Well, what’s the matter? What are you hesitating for!? Your bones will break. There’s no way you could hate fighting this much.”
...
Chapter: 405 (DBZ 211), P12.1
Piccolo: “Don’t forget…! Even if his power is #1, he’s still a kid…!”
Piccolo then says he's going to save Gohan. Goku then yells to Kuririn for a senzu, he's about to go save his dieing son.

...
then while everyone is getting beat up on the cliff by the Cell Juniors, Gohan just stares in bewilderment and thinks to himself how if he really does have hidden power he needs it now. SS1 Gohan says to himself that he wants to beat Cell but he does not know how.

See also:

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P2.3-4
Context: after Gohan powers up
Vegeta: “That brat…How did he get such a gigantic battle power?…This is impossible…!”
Cell: “Looks like what Son Goku said wasn’t a complete bluff…But it seems he overstated things a little when he said you could defeat me…”

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P6.4
Context: after fighting Gohan a little
Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least?”

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P15.4, P16.1
Cell: “I understand perfectly well that you don’t like fighting …But I don’t really know what you mean when you say that you don’t want to kill me. You couldn’t kill me in a hundred years. Well, am I wrong?”

Moreover, Cell was not even at his full power, SS1 Gohan gets trashed by non full power perfect Cell. Non full power perfect Cell was crushing the life out of SS1 Son Gohan. Cell only goes full power after Gohan turns SS2.

Chapter: 409 (DBZ 215), P3.5
Context: after Gohan says he can beat Cell
Cell: “Well then, I’ll show you…! My fearsome true power…!"

Chapter: 409 (DBZ 215), P8.2-4
Context: after Cell powers up
Goku: “S-so we finally get to see Cell fight at full power”
Kuririn: “This ki is so astounding, it’s like the entire Earth is shaking.”
Gohan: “What’s the big deal?”

MSSJ Gohan thought Suppressed Perfect Cell was trash compared to himself:

Goku: "How about it, Gohan? Did you think that dad and Cell’s fight just now was too incredible and you couldn’t keep up?”
Gohan: “N-no, I didn’t think so…But neither of you were fighting all-out, right…!?”
Goku: “I don’t know about Cell, but I was going all-out. So in other words, to you it felt like I was holding back?

Piccolo saying MSSJ Gohan's power is number 1:

Chapter: 405 (DBZ 211), P12.1
Piccolo: “Don’t forget…! Even if his power is #1, he’s still a kid…!”

[Kakarot88]

MSSJ Gohan thought Suppressed Perfect Cell was trash compared to himself:

Goku: "How about it, Gohan? Did you think that dad and Cell’s fight just now was too incredible and you couldn’t keep up?”
Gohan: “N-no, I didn’t think so…But neither of you were fighting all-out, right…!?”
Goku: “I don’t know about Cell, but I was going all-out. So in other words, to you it felt like I was holding back?

• You realize Gohan said that before he gets crushed by Cell who was STILL NOT AT FULL POWER and
  Cell only goes full power after Gohan turns SS2.

  Chapter: 408 (DBZ 214), P1.6
  Context: after Gohan transforms into a Super Saiyan 2
  Cell: “He cha-changed…”

  Chapter: 409 (DBZ 215), P3.5
  Context: after Gohan says he can beat Cell (when Gohan is SS2)
  Cell: “Well then, I’ll show you…! My fearsome true power…!"

  Chapter: 409 (DBZ 215), P8.2-4
  Context: after Cell powers up (when Gohan is SS2)
  Goku: “S-so we finally get to see Cell fight at full power”
  Kuririn: “This ki is so astounding, it’s like the entire Earth is shaking.”
  Gohan: “What’s the big deal?”

Piccolo saying MSSJ Gohan's power is number 1:

Chapter: 405 (DBZ 211), P12.1
Piccolo: “Don’t forget…! Even if his power is #1, he’s still a kid…!”

• And with Suppressed Power SS1 Gohan is being crushed to death by Cell.
  Piccolo's quote is saying even if Gohan is #1 Goku needs to go save him because Gohan is being killed.
  

  Chapter: 405 (DBZ 211), P9.1-2
  Context: as Cell has SS1 Gohan in a bear hug
  Cell: “Well, how's this? It hurts, right? Get angry! You don’t want to die like this, do you? Well, what’s the matter? What are you hesitating for!? Your bones will break. There’s no way you could hate fighting this much.”
  ...
  Chapter: 405 (DBZ 211), P12.1
  Piccolo: “Don’t forget…! Even if his power is #1 , he’s still a kid…!”
  Piccolo then says he's going to save Gohan. Goku then yells to Kuririn for a senzu, he's about to go save his dieing son .
  
  ...
  then while everyone is getting beat up on the cliff by the Cell Juniors, Gohan just stares in bewilderment and thinks to himself how if he really does have hidden power he needs it now. SS1 Gohan says to himself that he wants to beat Cell but he does not know how.

  See also:
  

  Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P2.3-4
  Context: after Gohan powers up
  Vegeta: “That brat…How did he get such a gigantic battle power?…This is impossible…!”
  Cell: “Looks like what Son Goku said wasn’t a complete bluff…But it seems he overstated things a little when he said you could defeat me…”

  Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P6.4
  Context: after fighting Gohan a little
  Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least?” That right there is about the only thing Cell does against SS1 Gohan
  that could remotely be considered "full"

  Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P15.4, P16.1
  Cell: “I understand perfectly well that you don’t like fighting …But I don’t really know what you mean when you say that you don’t want to kill me. You couldn’t kill me in a hundred years. Well, am I wrong?”

[Kakarot88]

Kakarot88 ... Also, if SS2 Gohan has lost the sparks because he got weaker, why does he have them against Kibito?

Out of universe: because Toriyama was using that to show he was weaker than when he had the sparks through rage like against Cell.

In-universe: because Gohan was not pissed off enough.

[miguelnuva1]

Cell needed to use his full speed and Kid Gohan was refusing to fight when Cell was winning.

I don't think Toriyama was worried enough about showing Gohan was weak. The plot was for Buu to wake up and it was most likely quicker to draw MSSJ Gohan than a SSJ2 Gohan.

[Kakarot88]

Cell needed to use his full speed and Kid Gohan was refusing to fight when Cell was winning.

Exactly, Gohan's refusal to fight does not mean he could have won.
He was losing, and did not want to get pissed off enough and spiral out of control that's why he wasn't fighting back not cuz he was that much better than Cell.
Gohan is summarily pwned by Cell as an SS1 and when Cell moves on to his friends Gohan does not intervene because he says he does not know how to win, he is not strong enough.

I don't think Toriyama was worried enough about showing Gohan was weak. The plot was for Buu to wake up and it was most likely quicker t draw MSSJ Gohan than a SSJ2 Gohan.

We may never know but that is an out of universe idea, although I tend to think Gohan did not have the sparks etc to highlight how much weaker Gohan had become.

[sekzee]

Goku was 2 steps behind Cell. Whatever that means.

Suppressed Cell > SSJ Goku

SSJ Gohan > Suppressed Cell > SSJ Goku

Suppressed Cell had to up his speed in order to catch Gohan, but even after catching him, he was unable to really inflict damage on him. Gohan's ki did not drop, stated. Once he has him on a hold, Gohan is unable to properly defend himself because he is also lacking the will to fight.

Even though Cell stated he was going all-out in speed, I think he meant in his current suppressed level and not necessarily the speed he would possess in his full power level. Goku was shown to do the same thing vs. Tien during their TB battle.

SSJ2 Gohan >> Full Power Cell >> SSJ Gohan > Suppressed Cell > SSJ Goku

[Duo]

The "body strangle" Cell does to Gohan doesn't necessarily indicate a superior level of strength because he had caught Gohan in a severe position of physical weakness by comparison. We see Goku pin a significantly stronger Raditz way back at the beginning...doesn't mean Goku was the stronger of the two.

I'm just...sayin'.

[Fionordequester]

We see Goku pin a significantly stronger Raditz way back at the beginning...doesn't mean Goku was the stronger of the two.

Raditz was weakened quite significantly at that point though.

[hleV]

Cell squeezed the shit out of Gohan while Goku could only hold Raditz.

[Mystic Buu]

We see clearly that in the manga,Gohan is SSJ against Dabura and for those who say that Toriyama forgot to draw sparks,after that,Goku and Vegeta have sparks.So Gohan was SSJ.But why?Gohan was SSJ2 against Kibito,but even when he tried to pull out the Z-sword he wasn't SSJ2.

Spoiler:

But we can't say that he needed very long to turn into SSJ2 because when he fought Kibito,he turned into SSJ2 in 1 page.I don't think that Spopovich and Yamu are responsible for that because he was healed by Kibito.Gohan could turn into SSJ2 against Dabura,but fight was really short.It was equal,then Dabura used magic to hit Gohan and he was angry.Then he used the spit and his sword.After that,Gohan was tired and Dabura wasn't.And then the fight ended.But I think Gohan was foolish,just like Vegeta said at the end of the battle.But when he was really angry and fired Kamehameha,he was STILL SSJ.I really don't know why.It looks like Gohan was only SSJ2 against Kibito and he was SSJ against Dabura,when he fired Kamehameha at Buu's sphere and even against Fat Buu.It doesn't make sense but that's how it is.

[Son_Gohan]

@Son_Gohan, I know it sounds like I am contradicting myself, but I am not.

You are. While you may try and continue painting over your opinion, if you in fact had it from the start there would have been no issue with my initial post expressing it as one form. The bottom line is that the discussion wouldn't have escalated if you were coherent then with what you are saying now. Reflecting on a past discussion we've had on a similar topic not too long ago, this would appear to be a trend. If you evidently need to be called out on your own statements in order to not renege on them, then you're making it very difficult for the people communicating with you.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

You are. While you may try and continue painting over your opinion, if you in fact had it from the start there would have been no issue with my initial post expressing it as one form. The bottom line is that the discussion wouldn't have escalated if you were coherent then with what you are saying now.

I've already decided on this long ago, and I have expressed this opinion many times in the past (coincidentally, I brought this up again very recently). Super Saiyan Grade 1 & Super Saiyan Full Power/Grade 4 are two different forms, but they are both Super Saiyan 1. I didn't make this up on the way of our debate to avoid contradiction myself. I would even say that this isn't even an opinion, since the guidebooks make what I said clear.

Reflecting on a past discussion we've had on a similar topic not too long ago, this would appear to be a trend.

This is called a mistake. I wasn't aware that Super Namekian Piccolo had an aura (and it's visible in my post from the screenshot you posted). I don't know everything, which is why I'm having discussions on this forum, to improve my knowledge, and if I'm proven wrong, change my mind on something. So far, you haven't proved that the aura isn't a trait of the SS forms, you haven't proven that the form of the aura is random, and you haven't proven that sparks isn't a trait of SS2/3.

Chapter: 405 (DBZ 211), P9.1-2
Context: as Cell has Gohan in a bear hug
Cell: “Well, how's this? It hurts, right? Get angry! You don’t want to die like this, do you? Well, what’s the matter? What are you hesitating for!? Your bones will break. There’s no way you could hate fighting this much.”

You missed that part. Gohan is still not fighting back. That's why Cell can crush him, not because he is stronger than him, but because Gohan refuses to fight back.

See also:

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P2.3-4
Context: after Gohan powers up
Vegeta: “That brat…How did he get such a gigantic battle power?…This is impossible…!”
Cell: “Looks like what Son Goku said wasn’t a complete bluff…But it seems he overstated things a little when he said you could defeat me…”

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P6.4
Context: after fighting Gohan a little
Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least?”

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P15.4, P16.1
Cell: “I understand perfectly well that you don’t like fighting …But I don’t really know what you mean when you say that you don’t want to kill me. You couldn’t kill me in a hundred years. Well, am I wrong?”

Moreover, Cell was not even at his full power, SS1 Gohan gets trashed by non full power perfect Cell. Non full power perfect Cell was crushing the life out of SS1 Son Gohan. Cell only goes full power after Gohan turns SS2.

And what makes you think that Cell's comments are about Gohan not being strong enough to defeat his suppressed self? Sure, Cell wasn't at full power yet, but he knew his true power. The chances are that SS Gohan can't defeat Full Power Cell, since Cell's power when fighting Goku didn't look amazing from Gohan's point of view, meaning that SS Gohan is stronger than Suppressed Cell.

[Low Tone G]

The chances are that SS Gohan can't defeat Full Power Cell, since Cell's power when fighting Goku didn't look amazing from Gohan's point of view, meaning that SS Gohan is stronger than Suppressed Cell.

I agree! And having Goku to make a harsh training to access SSJ2 transformation I assume Gohan was singificantly above Full Power SSJ Goku. I can say Gohan could comparable be to Full Power Perfect Cell.

[Kakarot88]

Chapter: 405 (DBZ 211), P9.1-2
Context: as Cell has Gohan in a bear hug
Cell: “Well, how's this? It hurts, right? Get angry! You don’t want to die like this, do you? Well, what’s the matter? What are you hesitating for!? Your bones will break. There’s no way you could hate fighting this much.”

You missed that part. Gohan is still not fighting back. That's why Cell can crush him, not because he is stronger than him, but because Gohan refuses to fight back.

You calling me a liar? Looks like you missed the rest of that chapter:

Chapter: 405 (DBZ 211), P9.1-2
Context: as Cell has SS1 Gohan in a bear hug
Cell: “Well, how's this? It hurts, right? Get angry! You don’t want to die like this, do you? Well, what’s the matter? What are you hesitating for!? Your bones will break. There’s no way you could hate fighting this much.”.

Chapter: 405 (DBZ 211), P12.1
Piccolo: “Don’t forget…! Even if his power is #1 , he’s still a kid…!”
Piccolo then says he's going to save Gohan. Goku then yells to Kuririn for a senzu! Cuz you know he's about to go save his dieing son

Now to be fair Goku does not say "Gohan is dying."[size]
Here's Kanzenshuu'ssummary of that scene:

... “Do you know what Gohan is thinking right now!? It’s not about anger!! ‘Why is my father not helping me while I’m in such pain and dying?Maybe being a fair man, the fight is more important than my life.’ Don’t forget! Even if he’s the number one strongest, he’s still a child!!” Piccolo prepares to go help Gohan, while Goku takes all this in. Goku looks at Gohan once more, and then yells at Kuririn to give him a senzu.

Lemme guess me and Kanzenshuu are wrong and Gohan's doing just fine?

Fine fine I'll have Gohan himself tell you how he cannot defeat Cell as a Super Saiyan:

while everyone is getting beat up on the cliff by the Cell Juniors, Gohan just stares in bewilderment and thinks to himself how if he really does have hidden power he needs it now. SS1 Gohan says to himself that he wants to beat Cell but he does not know how .

here's Viz's Version:




Here's Kanzenshuu's summary:

... Gohan sees that everyone is being killed, and knows he has amazing power hidden away. He wants to bring it out and defeat Cell, but he doesn’t know how to get angry and do it...

SS1 Gohan could NOT defeat Perfect form Cell EVEN when Cell was NOT at full power.
Goku and Piccolo both saw Gohan dying.
Hell EVEN GOHAN HIMSELF SAID HE DID NOT KNOW HOW TO DEFEAT CELL

You were probably just relying on the strength checker for proof rather than the manga as a whole, easy mistake. I'm not someone who hides the ball I don't use things out of context. Hell I even gave Kaboom proof to help him out, so please don't act like I'm making this up or not using context. I'm simply stating facts in each arc. How you choose to use that information is a policy choice.

[Super Vegetto]

SSJ Gohan is stronger than suppressed Cell. He just didn't had will to fight or kill him, and Goku didn't know until it was too late.

Even when everyone is getting owned by Cell juniors he doesn't get angry and doesn't attack Cell because he's scared. He couldn't tap into his anger so easy until android 16 pushed him over the edge...

[Kamiccolo9]

stuff

Calm down, man. Using huge font with a bunch of exclamation points and emoticons isn't going to make anyone take your viewpoint any more seriously.

[Kakarot88]

stuff

Calm down, man. Using huge font with a bunch of exclamation points and emoticons isn't going to make anyone take your viewpoint any more seriously.

Yeah I overreacted, today's been really stressful and I took it out on the forum it really rubs me the wrong way when people act like I'm hiding the ball or trying to mislead when I'm not, there's 0 point in doing that.

It's especially frustrating when I take the time to put in all the proper citation and people just don't even bother to think and just truck on with their theories.

I honestly don't understand how you can interpret "I want to defeat Cell" emphasized "want" and "But I don't know how" to mean Gohan could defeat Cell and was just chilling. There seems to me this atmosphere of an inability to admit "oh wow hadn't thought of that" or "wow you're right." There's no shame in being ignorant there is shame in being stubborn when confronted with the truth.

[Fionordequester]

Guys, I think I may have just found the answer to this debate. I believe that Gohan was an SSJ1 for at least the fight against Dabura, and the reason why? Well, check this out. This is the entire scene played out, with Gohan and Kai confronting Dabura and Babidi, and Goku fighting Vegeta. Here we go...

Spoiler:

So here's the situation before Goku and Vegeta's fight. Babidi, in addition to being caught by the "potty mouth" syndrom that affects so many poorly translated anime, is none too pleased with the progress of the energy meter. We will keep this in mind as we flash forward to a little bit before Goku vs. Vegeta.

Spoiler:

A little bit of banter later, we have Goku vs. Vegeta.

Spoiler:

And now we have the fighting, which is absolutely BEAUTIFULLY drawn, and, although way too short, is much better drawn and feels much more frenetic and explosive than the fight in the anime.

Spoiler:

But sadly, all good things must come to an end as we cut back to the others

Spoiler:

So, they haven't really done a whole lot. Either they've been having the world's most awkward staring contest, or all this is happening at the exact same time as Goku vs. Vegeta. Why I make a note of this, you'll find out soon.

Spoiler:

Huh, what's that?

Spoiler:

Aaaaaaand there we have it. Already full, even though, as Babidi implied, the energy meter wasn't THAT close to be full. Everyone is stunned by this revelation, which Gohan can only explain as Goku and Vegeta "fighting at a level beyond Super Saiyan". So basically, with Gohan vs. Dabura, that energy gauge was hardly even moving, but with Goku vs. Vegeta? That thing filled up almost IMMEDIATELY. In literally the time it took for Babidi and Kai to exhance some pre-battle banter, Goku and Vegeta had ALREADY filled that thing up to the max!

...I dunno about you, but after looking at that, and looking at all the other evidence brought up by the SSJ1 side, I think I know what I'm going with.

[RandomGuy96]

I think those scanslations are illegal, so expect them to get deleted soon.

Dabra vs Gohan was short and inconclusive, with each fighter only hitting the other once. They weren't even damaging hits either. Goku and Vegeta actually beat the shit out of each other, and were bloody and bruised by the end.