Why the Broly hate?

[RandomGuy96]

He did have the sludge on him. Also, the kids did much better against M11 LSS Broly than they did against M10 SS Broly, who was implied to be the same strength as M8 LSS Broly (or stronger).

[rereboy]

If it didn't make the Bio-Men weaker than normal men, then I don't see why he would be weaker than normal Broli.

Once again you are assuming that what happened with humans will happen with Saiyans using the same process. The same could happen but honestly what happens in the movie actually seems to contradict that and makes Bio-Broly appear more fragile and even weaker than even movie 8 Broly.

[Kamiccolo9]

I have no problem with Bio Broly being stronger than regular Broly before being all sludgified. Afterwards, though, what we see, in my opinion, doesn't support him being stronger than Broly.

[RandomGuy96]

If it didn't make the Bio-Men weaker than normal men, then I don't see why he would be weaker than normal Broli.

Once again you are assuming that what happened with humans will happen with Saiyans using the same process. The same could happen but honestly what happens in the movie actually seems to contradict that and makes Bio-Broly appear more fragile and even weaker than even movie 8 Broly.

Not really.

[rereboy]

If it didn't make the Bio-Men weaker than normal men, then I don't see why he would be weaker than normal Broli.

Once again you are assuming that what happened with humans will happen with Saiyans using the same process. The same could happen but honestly what happens in the movie actually seems to contradict that and makes Bio-Broly appear more fragile and even weaker than even movie 8 Broly.

Not really.

Movie 8 Broly knocked SSJ Goku, SSJ Gohan and SSJ Trunks unconscious with just a few attacks (they needed Piccolo's senzus to recover) and was impervious to pretty much anything except Goku's final attack. Comparing that what Bio-Broly does, who he faces and the fights he gets into and what managed to affect him, Bio-Broly does seem more fragile and weaker than even movie 8 Broly.

[RandomGuy96]

Movie 8 Broly knocked SSJ Goku, SSJ Gohan and SSJ Trunks unconscious with just a few attacks (they needed Piccolo's senzus to recover) and was impervious to pretty much anything except Goku's final attack. Comparing that what Bio-Broly does, who he faces and the fights he gets into and what managed to affect him, Bio-Broly does seem more fragile and weaker than even movie 8 Broly.

No, because the Super Saiyans Movie 11 Broly fought were faaaaaaaaaaaaar stronger than the ones Movie 8 Broly fought.

[rereboy]

Movie 8 Broly knocked SSJ Goku, SSJ Gohan and SSJ Trunks unconscious with just a few attacks (they needed Piccolo's senzus to recover) and was impervious to pretty much anything except Goku's final attack. Comparing that what Bio-Broly does, who he faces and the fights he gets into and what managed to affect him, Bio-Broly does seem more fragile and weaker than even movie 8 Broly.

No, because the Super Saiyans Movie 11 Broly fought were faaaaaaaaaaaaar stronger than the ones Movie 8 Broly fought.

Kid Trunks and kid Goten...? I wouldn't put them past the FPSSJs of the Cell arc, and in movie 8, Goku, Gohan, Trunks and Vegeta are supposed to be, more or less, their Cell games selfs (as in FPSSJs). And even if they are better than them, I wouldn't put them much higher than them. For them to be faaaaarrrrr stronger they would have to be at least SSJ2 Gohan level, and I think its safe to say that they aren't.

Not to mention that they are only two of them while in movie 8 they were four, plus Piccolo.

Also I don't imagine movie 8 Broly being affected by that goo from movie 11 that left Bio-Broly disfigured and with internal organs showing since he pretty much looked impervious to everything and in movie 11 lava wasn't a problem for him.

[RandomGuy96]

Movie 8 Broly knocked SSJ Goku, SSJ Gohan and SSJ Trunks unconscious with just a few attacks (they needed Piccolo's senzus to recover) and was impervious to pretty much anything except Goku's final attack. Comparing that what Bio-Broly does, who he faces and the fights he gets into and what managed to affect him, Bio-Broly does seem more fragile and weaker than even movie 8 Broly.

No, because the Super Saiyans Movie 11 Broly fought were faaaaaaaaaaaaar stronger than the ones Movie 8 Broly fought.

Kid Trunks and kid Goten...? I wouldn't put them past the FPSSJs of the Cell arc, and in movie 8, Goku, Gohan, Trunks and Vegeta are supposed to be, more or less, their Cell games selfs (as in FPSSJs). And even if they are better than them, I wouldn't put them much higher than them. For them to be faaaaarrrrr stronger they would have to be at least SSJ2 Gohan level, and I think its safe to say that they aren't.

Not to mention that they are only two of them while in movie 8 they were four, plus Piccolo.

Also I don't imagine movie 8 Broly being affected by that goo from movie 11 that left Bio-Broly disfigured and with internal organs showing since he pretty much looked impervious to everything and in movie 11 lava wasn't a problem for him.

Nope. Vegeta and Trunks are SSG2 in Movie 9, according to their designs and the notes from the sketches. SS Goku and Gohan aren't far above them, with Goku even being shocked that SS Broly can tank SSG2 Vegeta. So yes, SS Goten and Trunks are faaaaaaaar stronger than the heroes in Movie 8.



Remember the scene where Trunks transforms into a SSG2, and his arms expand significantly and break his jacket?



As Dragon Ball showed us, numbers don't matter. Goten and Trunks could have curb-stomped all five of the Movie 8 heroes with their eyes closed.

We don't know what that goo could do, so saying Broly could no-sell it is completely baseless.

[ABED]

Not for a minute do I buy Trunks and Goten being able to curb stomp them

[RandomGuy96]

Not for a minute do I buy Trunks and Goten being able to curb stomp them

But... they can? I mean that's really not debatable. Guidebooks state that they're equal to CG Gohan, they're repeatedly implied to be stronger than Piccolo, and they actually gave Gohan and Vegeta trouble in sparring, indicating that they're more than half of the strength of those fighters, who are several times stronger than the M8 heroes. Additionally, Gohan states that if he's not careful and doesn't start training again, he'll just be outright surpassed by Goten.

[rereboy]

Nope. Vegeta and Trunks are SSG2 in Movie 9, according to their designs and the notes from the sketches. SS Goku and Gohan aren't far above them, with Goku even being shocked that SS Broly can tank SSG2 Vegeta. So yes, SS Goten and Trunks are faaaaaaaar stronger than the heroes in Movie 8.

As Dragon Ball showed us, numbers don't matter. Goten and Trunks could curbstomped all five of the Movie 8 heroes with their eyes closed.

We don't know what that goo could do, so saying Broly could no-sell it is completely baseless.

Like I said, they are supposed to be, MORE OR LESS, their Cell games selfs. There's stuff in there that appears to be from before right before the Cell Games, while there's stuff in there that seems to be Cell Games (like Goku and Gohan being completely relaxed in their SSJ state several times and Gohan able to go SSJ with his Cell Games design).

You are arguing that the kids are faaaaarrrrrrr stronger, when SSJ2 is just double the power of SSJ1 and when the gang from movie 8 is around the power of themselves at the Cell Games, even if they are inferior. I don't see where you see such a gap between those powers to put these SSJ1 kids faaaaarrrrr stronger than the SSJs at movie 8. Not to mention that they were four, not two.

And I merely stated that he APPEARED to be more fragile. Of course I don't know for sure what the goo would do to the real Broly. But considering Broly's imperviousness to attacks and his ability to not be harmed by lava in movie 11, I simply said that I don't imagine the real Broly being hurt by it, even the one from movie 8.

[RandomGuy96]

Like I said, they are supposed to be, MORE OR LESS, their Cell games selfs. There's stuff in there that appears to be from before right before the Cell Games, while there's stuff in there that seems to be Cell Games (like Goku and Gohan being completely relaxed in their SSJ state several times and Gohan able to go SSJ with his Cell Games design).

The movie doesn't even fit before the Cell Games, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. M9 is the Cell Games. M8 is the Perfect Cell arc. And if you want to get into designs, Goku has his resting appearance that's below his 50% power, and he never changes it, yet he's the strongest in this movie. Trunks and Vegeta still use Grade II, indicating they haven't taken their second ROSAT trip.

You are arguing that the kids are faaaaarrrrrrr stronger, when SSJ2 is just double the power of SSJ1 and when the gang from movie 8 is around the power of themselves at the Cell Games, even if they are inferior. I don't see where you see such a gap between those powers to put these SSJ1 kids faaaaarrrrr stronger than the SSJs at movie 8. Not to mention that they were four, not two.

They're nowhere close to their CG selves, as Trunks and Vegeta still use Grade II and Goku is awed by the ability to tank Grade II Vegeta.

The kids are more than half the power of Buu Saga SS Gohan, and stronger than Buu Saga Piccolo. Everyone in M8 is around Grade II Vegeta. So yeah, the kids would be faaaaaaar stronger.

And I merely stated that he APPEARED to be more fragile. Of course I don't know for sure what the goo would do to the real Broly. But considering Broly's imperviousness to attacks and his ability to not be harmed by lava in movie 11, I simply said that I don't imagine the real Broly being hurt by it, even the one from movie 8.

"I don't imagine him being hurt by it"? Again, we don't know what the goo does. I never considered that anyone could just tank the goo, because that has no basis in anything.

...and didn't he need to use an energy shield to survive the lava?

[ABED]

Not for a minute do I buy Trunks and Goten being able to curb stomp them

But... they can? I mean that's really not debatable. Guidebooks state that they're equal to CG Gohan, they're repeatedly implied to be stronger than Piccolo, and they actually gave Gohan and Vegeta trouble in sparring, indicating that they're more than half of the strength of those fighters, who are several times stronger than the M8 heroes. Additionally, Gohan states that if he's not careful and doesn't start training again, he'll just be outright surpassed by Goten.

Gohan was rusty, and was caught off guard. Vegeta wasn't fighting his son, he was more or less doing what amounts to sparring. He wasn't going all out, so neither is an indication of exactly how strong they are.

Your last point proves nothing other than Gohan let himself get soft, and given enough time, Goten could outpace him. That doesn't mean he could curbstomp his brother around the time before the cell games which is roughly where movie 8 takes place (I know it's not canon, but you hopefully know what I mean).

I don't recall it being implied that either Goten or Trunks is stronger than Piccolo.

[Kid Buu]

Not for a minute do I buy Trunks and Goten being able to curb stomp them

Why not?

[ABED]

Not for a minute do I buy Trunks and Goten being able to curb stomp them

Why not?

Too young, inexperienced, just learned to fly, and have only been shown to turn SS, not anything above that. Being able to curb stomp implies they are head and shoulders above their opponents. Sorry, not buying it.

[rereboy]

The movie doesn't even fit before the Cell Games, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. M9 is the Cell Games. M8 is the Perfect Cell arc. And if you want to get into designs, Goku has his resting appearance that's below his 50% power, and he never changes it, yet he's the strongest in this movie.

What I'm arguing is that they are around that power. I never claimed that it was exactly that power because I know very well how things don't fit with before the Cell Games or during the Cell Games.

Therefore I compromise and say that they are around that power.

They're nowhere close to their CG selves, as Trunks and Vegeta still use Grade II and Goku is awed by the ability to tank Grade II Vegeta.

The kids are more than half the power of Buu Saga SS Gohan, and stronger than Buu Saga Piccolo. Everyone in M8 is around Grade II Vegeta. So yeah, the kids would be faaaaaaar stronger.

I see, so Gohan uses his Cell Games design and he is weaker than Goku, but because Trunks and Vegeta have their grades design they MUST be at exactly the power they had at that time...? See why I use the "around"? I could just have easily assumed that Trunks and Vegeta have their Cell Games power despite the design and that Goku is the strongest because Gohan isn't tapping into his rage just like he didn't at first with Cell.

"I don't imagine him being hurt by it"? Again, we don't know what the goo does. I never considered that anyone could just tank the goo, because that has no basis in anything.

...and didn't he need to use an energy shield to survive the lava?

We see what the goo does. It disfigures, melts skin and flesh. As for the lava:



Broly's ki protects him from this but wouldn't protect him from flesh-melting goo?


So, in short, movie 8 Broly is capable of knocking out with just a few attacks SSJs around the power of SSJs right before the Cell Games or during the Cell Games, and he fought four of them, plus Piccolo, and he was impervious to all attacks, except Goku's last one. And in the next movie even lava couldn't even burn him. However, Bio-Broly has trouble with kid Trunks and Kid Goten, plus Krillin and is unable to protect himself from some kind of flesh-melting goo that disfigures him and even makes his internal organs visible.

Like I said, he just looks more fragile and even weaker than his previous incarnations, based on what we have.

[TheGmGoken]

Not for a minute do I buy Trunks and Goten being able to curb stomp them

Why not?

Too young, inexperienced, just learned to fly, and have only been shown to turn SS, not anything above that. Being able to curb stomp implies they are head and shoulders above their opponents. Sorry, not buying it.

Maybe inexperience but age had NOTHING to do with anything. Just learning to fly(Goten) was more or less to be funny IMHO. Which what made me to a Goten fan. Seeing as Trunks might have done Father-Son bonding training(Not often) I'm sure Trunks got some power. Lets not forget they master SSJ by accident by "play" fighting. We've seen what fighting have done to warriors. THEY GET STRONGER

[ABED]

I never said they weren't strong. I get that Goten learning to fly was played for laughs, but those are the facts. He has a lot of potential, but potential don't pay the bills.

[RandomGuy96]

Gohan was rusty, and was caught off guard. Vegeta wasn't fighting his son, he was more or less doing what amounts to sparring. He wasn't going all out, so neither is an indication of exactly how strong they are.

Your last point proves nothing other than Gohan let himself get soft, and given enough time, Goten could outpace him. That doesn't mean he could curbstomp his brother around the time before the cell games which is roughly where movie 8 takes place (I know it's not canon, but you hopefully know what I mean).

I don't recall it being implied that either Goten or Trunks is stronger than Piccolo.

They were totally using full effort, nothing indicates they weren't. Yet they had trouble blocking and dodging the kids. If the gap was so great, then they would have had no trouble at all. Like Goku vs the Ginyus.

Not really. SS Gohan is absurdly more powerful than any of the heroes in M8, so SS Goten being decently close to him means he's also stronger than anyone in M8. Those weren't the CG heroes.

Piccolo was shocked at their full power while Goku wasn't, they had a greater influence on Majin Buu, Piccolo said that they were Earth's last hope instead of him when Vegeta died (this is before he learned about fusion), etc.

What I'm arguing is that they are around that power. I never claimed that it was exactly that power because I know very well how things don't fit with before the Cell Games or during the Cell Games. Therefore I compromise and say that they are around that power.

Around what power? Perfect Cell arc power? Nothing indicates that they're close to their CG selves, and many things indicate that they aren't, so that can't really be used as proof that M11 Broly is weaker than M8 Broly. I think M8 LSS Broly is weaker than CG Gohan truthfully.

I see, so Gohan uses his Cell Games design and he is weaker than Goku, but because Trunks and Vegeta have their grades design they MUST be at exactly the power they had at that time...? See why I use the "around"? I could just have easily assumed that Trunks and Vegeta have their Cell Games power despite the design and that Goku is the strongest because Gohan isn't tapping into his rage just like he didn't at first with Cell.

SS Gohan is far stronger than Goku without any rage. He's just weaksauce in this movie. Goku, Trunks, and Vegeta are all pre-CG designs. Nothing indicates anyone is as strong as they are in the Cell Games. Vegeta and Trunks are still using Grade II, a clear sign that they haven't obtained MSS levels of strength. And it's not a just a design thing; attention is specifically drawn to it when Trunks bulks up so much it tears his jacket.

We see what the goo does. It disfigures, melts skin and flesh. As for the lava:
Broly's ki protects him from this but wouldn't protect him from flesh-melting goo?

Thanks for the image.

Again, we don't know the "melting power" of the goo, nor do we know Broly's resistance to it, so again it's all baseless.

I never said they weren't strong. I get that Goten learning to fly was played for laughs, but those are the facts. He has a lot of potential, but potential don't pay the bills.

He had ass loads of raw power, he just didn't have that specific technique.

So, in short, movie 8 Broly is capable of knocking out with just a few attacks SSJs around the power of SSJs right before the Cell Games or during the Cell Games, and he fought four of them, plus Piccolo, and he was impervious to all attacks, except Goku's last one. And in the next movie even lava couldn't even burn him. However, Bio-Broly has trouble with kid Trunks and Kid Goten, plus Krillin and is unable to protect himself from some kind of flesh-melting goo that disfigures him and even makes his internal organs visible.

Like I said, he just looks more fragile and even weaker than his previous incarnations, based on what we have.

Stop making things up. The M8 characters are not at their Cell Games designs and do not use appropriate Cell Games forms. They're not even close to that level of strength, or at least there's nothing saying that they are. M11 Broly has trouble because SS Goten and Trunks are far stronger than the heroes of M8, all of which would be one-shotted by Cell Juniors.

If anything, he looks stronger. Beating SS Goten and Trunks is ridiculously more impressive than beating five guys around SSG2 Vegeta level. Even a Cell Junior could do that with ease.

[ABED]

They were totally using full effort, nothing indicates they weren't. Yet they had trouble blocking and dodging the kids. If the gap was so great, then they would have had no trouble at all. Like Goku vs the Ginyus.

Not really. SS Gohan is absurdly more powerful than any of the heroes in M8, so SS Goten being decently close to him means he's also stronger than anyone in M8. Those weren't the CG heroes.

Piccolo was shocked at their full power while Goku wasn't, they had a greater influence on Majin Buu, Piccolo said that they were Earth's last hope instead of him when Vegeta died (this is before he learned about fusion), etc.

Of course there are indications that they weren't. Vegeta can punch people through mountains, yet he just punched Trunks in the nose. And no, they weren't using full effort. Gohan was just getting back in the swing of things. It outright shows that. A few minutes later, Gohan isn't having any trouble dodging Gotens throws.

Shock doesn't always mean someone is stronger. It just means stronger than expected. You're deductive reasoning is flawed. Piccolo knows the potential Goten and Trunks has, but that's what they had then - potential. In time, Piccolo was sure they could outpace him.