Why the Broly hate?

[rereboy]

....

Yes, around that power. Goku and Gohan don't even have a right-before-Cell-Games power, they just have their Android-19-and-20 power and their Cell Games power, and their android-19-and-20 power wasn't the one being used in movie 8 for sure. As for Trunks and Vegeta, they have a right-before-Cell-games power and a Cell Games power, but their power didn't drastically change from one moment to the other, it just increased somewhat and they started to use regular SSJ instead of the grades.

You claim that their power in movie 8 has to be based off the power of Grades Trunks and Vegeta and Goku's and Gohan's power adjusted accordingly, when it makes just as much sense to have their power be based off Goku and Gohan's power in the Cell games and the others adjusted accordingly.

And SSJ Gohan fought terribly agaisnt the same Cell that Goku had fought, even if he was stronger than Goku, because he wasn't tapping into his rage. I have no trouble sseing the same scenario for Gohan in movie 8.

Also, melting power..? It's really simple: Bio-Broly appears to be more fragile than Broly since he couldn't protect himself from the goo while Broly protected himself from the lava and all others attacks except the finishing ones. You can say "we don't know!!" and you are right, but the only things that we have to go on points in the direction I was saying and that's all I was stating.

[RandomGuy96]

Of course there are indications that they weren't. Vegeta can punch people through mountains, yet he just punched Trunks in the nose. And no, they weren't using full effort.

He hit Trunks with a quick reactive punch. Full force hits don't always have to launch someone through a mountain, have you even read the manga? Yes, they were using full effort, nothing indicates they weren't. Gohan was even sweating, and Vegeta felt so pressured by the assault that he had to hit Trunks to make him stop. You're just trying to make stuff up to nerf the kids.

Shock doesn't always mean someone is stronger. It just means stronger than expected. You're deductive reasoning is flawed. Piccolo knows the potential Goten and Trunks has, but that's what they had then - potential. In time, Piccolo was sure they could outpace him.

No time, Buu is right there. Also, he already knows the kids are waaaaaay strong for their age- he sensed their ki output at the Budokai- yet their full power still makes him damn near crap himself. Mysteriously Goku, who is stronger than them and Piccolo, isn't intimidated.

Yes, around that power. Goku and Gohan don't even have a right-before-Cell-Games power, they just have their Android-19-and-20 power and their Cell Games power, and their android-19-and-20 power wasn't the one being used in movie 8 for sure. As for Trunks and Vegeta, they have a right-before-Cell-games power and a Cell Games power, but their power didn't drastically change from one moment to the other, it just increased somewhat and they started to use regular SSJ instead of the grades.

Goku has a unique design for his resting state. That's the one that was used here. Not his full power state.

It increased MASSIVELY, actually.

SSG2 Vegeta gets tanked by Initial Perfect Cell, then curbstomped.

SSG3 Trunks is stated to far surpass Initial Perfect Cell.

Everyone senses HALF of Goku's power and is awed by it, even though they all sensed SSG3 Trunks. Vegeta states that half of Goku's power is beyond him.

Vegeta and Trunks train again. From this, Vegeta is sure he's made such big gains that he totally outstrips 50% Goku and can kick Initial Perfect Cell's ass.

Goku and Cell power up, Vegeta moans about how he's been surpassed again.

Hell, LSS Broly only has to be as strong as Initial Perfect Cell to do what he did.

You claim that their power in movie 8 has to be based off the power of Grades Trunks and Vegeta and Goku's and Gohan's power adjusted accordingly, when it makes just as much sense to have their power be based off Goku and Gohan's power in the Cell games and the others adjusted accordingly.

I'm not saying it HAS to be based on anything, I'm saying that no, M8 Broly doesn't look stronger than M11 Broly unless you think they're at their Cell Games levels. Which nothing indicates and some things contradict.

Actually, that method would make less sense. It'd be basing everything around SS Gohan's design (even though he's the weakest in the movie yet by far the strongest at the Cell Games) instead of the other three. Vegeta still uses SSG2, he clearly has not mastered Super Saiyan.

And SSJ Gohan fought terribly agaisnt the same Cell that Goku had fought, even if he was stronger than Goku, because he wasn't tapping into his rage. I have no trouble sseing the same scenario for Gohan in movie 8.

No, he wasn't. He was dodging and blocking Cell effortlessly and floored him with one kick. Sometimes he basically let Cell hit him, but it did absolutely no damage. He didn't lose control of the situation until Cell powered up, using all of his true speed.

Also, melting power..? It's really simple: Bio-Broly appears to be more fragile than Broly since he couldn't protect himself from the goo while Broly protected himself from the lava and all others attacks except the finishing ones. You can say "we don't know!!" and you are right, but the only things that we have to go on point in that direction and that's all I'm stating.

That's assuming the goo is weaker than lava. Which is again completely baseless.

Actually, we have a lot more to go on, like Vegeta being Grade II in M8.

[ABED]

Yes, a quick reactive punch not meant to do any real damage. He's sparring, more than that, he's sparring his son. He was holding back and wasn't using his full power. Nothing indicates that Vegeta was being super serious. It's not implied, you inferred that.

As for Gohan, you completely missed the part where he doesn't have any trouble dodging a few minutes later. The whole point was to show Gohan out of practice. You're cherry picking.

Surprise doesn't mean stronger, just stronger than expected. Goku wasn't surprised, all that means is he was expecting something.

Buu is there? What scene are we talking about? He knows about the Room of Spirit and Time.

[RandomGuy96]

Yes, a quick reactive punch not meant to do any real damage. He was holding back and wasn't using his full power. Nothing indicates that Vegeta was being super serious. It's not implied, you inferred that.

As for Gohan, you completely missed the part where he doesn't have any trouble dodging a few minutes later. The whole point was to show Gohan out of practice. You're cherry picking.

Surprise doesn't mean stronger. Goku wasn't surprised.

Actually, it is by, you know, his face, and what he does, and the sweat that pours down Gohan's face when trying to block SS Goten. Heck, right before he flies up into the air to avoid Goten, he has a serious expression with his teeth bared and sweat on his forehead.

No, I'm not. He has sweat for some parts of the 'fight', and he looks worried for all of it. If he were much stronger, he'd just use his apparently far superior strength to effortlessly dodge.

Goku wasn't surprised because said power was still nothing to him. Piccolo already knew that the kids were way stronger than they should be, yet their full power totally blows his mind.

[ABED]

Yes, a quick reactive punch not meant to do any real damage. He was holding back and wasn't using his full power. Nothing indicates that Vegeta was being super serious. It's not implied, you inferred that.

As for Gohan, you completely missed the part where he doesn't have any trouble dodging a few minutes later. The whole point was to show Gohan out of practice. You're cherry picking.

Surprise doesn't mean stronger. Goku wasn't surprised.

Actually, it is by, you know, his face, and what he does, and the sweat that pours down Gohan's face when trying to block SS Goten. Heck, right before he flies up into the air to avoid Goten, he has a serious expression with his teeth bared and sweat on his forehead.

No, I'm not. He has sweat for some parts of the 'fight', and he looks worried for all of it. If he were much stronger, he'd just use his apparently far superior strength to effortlessly dodge.

Goku wasn't surprised because said power was still nothing to him. Piccolo already knew that the kids were way stronger than they should be, yet their full power totally blows his mind.

And again, you completely disregard Gohan having no problem dodging mere moments later.

I'd have to see that scene with Piccolo because I don't trust your judgment.

[RandomGuy96]

And again, you completely disregard Gohan having no problem dodging mere moments later.

I'd have to see that scene with Piccolo because I don't trust your judgment.

No, I'm not. He could dodge and block Goten, but it took effort, judging by his sweat and facial expressions. Not to mention that the guidebooks outright say they're equal to Gohan's Cell Games power (likely after the ROSAT).

[ABED]

And again, you completely disregard Gohan having no problem dodging mere moments later.

I'd have to see that scene with Piccolo because I don't trust your judgment.

No, I'm not. He could dodge and block Goten, but it took effort, judging by his sweat and facial expressions. Not to mention that the guidebooks outright say they're equal to Gohan's Cell Games power (likely after the ROSAT).

Yes you are disregarding it. He was surprised by Goten's strength, but a few panels later, he's effortlessly dodging and tells Goten he's getting back into the swing of things and to get closer. Gohan was rusty. He wasn't going full out.

I don't go by the guidebooks, I go by the manga and anime.

[RandomGuy96]

And again, you completely disregard Gohan having no problem dodging mere moments later.

I'd have to see that scene with Piccolo because I don't trust your judgment.

No, I'm not. He could dodge and block Goten, but it took effort, judging by his sweat and facial expressions. Not to mention that the guidebooks outright say they're equal to Gohan's Cell Games power (likely after the ROSAT).

Yes you are disregarding it. He was surprised by Goten's strength, but a few panels later, he's effortlessly dodging and tells Goten he's getting back into the swing of things and to get closer. Gohan was rusty. He wasn't going full out.

I don't go by the guidebooks, I go by the manga and anime.

He's not "effortlessly dodging". There's no indication he still isn't using effort. He's still clearly serious (serious face, bared teeth, sweat) even to the last blow he blocks, right before he flies up in the air. Stop making stuff up.

The anime has far less credibility than the guidebooks.

[Kid Buu]

Back on subject I don't hate Broli at all. I just find him rather dull after a while and he sticks around for way too long; three movies was enough. Although I give Movie 11 some credit for giving the B-team something to do.

I don't even find his fans annoying. If there's any character with annoying as shit fans, its the Mr. Popo/Abridged fanboys.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Not for a minute do I buy Trunks and Goten being able to curb stomp them

Why not?

Too young, inexperienced, just learned to fly, and have only been shown to turn SS, not anything above that. Being able to curb stomp implies they are head and shoulders above their opponents. Sorry, not buying it.

4-year-old Gohan could kill Goku or Piccolo, and he didn't even know how to punch. 10-year-old can kill base-SS2 Goku if he doesn't fly away.

I agree with Random on everything so far.

Also, Jaguar's dog-thing was destroyed instantly from the goo, does lava destroy a creature so fast?

And also, I fail to see how the kids did better against Bio-Broli than SS Broli. In both fights, Broli could tank the kids' attacks like it's nothing, and was only affected, but not damaged, by off-guard hits. Bio-Broli only took damage from a combined, surprise punch by the kids.

[Kid Buu]

I just don't understand the resentment for Kid Goten and Kid Trunks being as overpowered as they were. Kid Gohan was extremely overpowered, as was Kid Goku before. It just seems like it always a motif of the series to me.

[ABED]

Because as young as Gohan was, his power was never treated lightly. It never devalued anything. Trunks and Goten got it through playing, and it was indeed a super saiyan bargain sale.

He's not "effortlessly dodging". There's no indication he still isn't using effort. He's still clearly serious (serious face, bared teeth, sweat) even to the last blow he blocks, right before he flies up in the air. Stop making stuff up.

The anime has far less credibility than the guidebooks.

You are 100% in the wrong. He's not gritting his teeth and sweating in those few frames. It's like you refuse to actually pay attention to the book. I just looked it up. Gohan is smilling as he's dodging the rocks and telling Goten that he's getting the hang of it. You keep evading that point. Why won't you comment on the frames where he's telling Goten he's getting the hang of things?

As for the gritted teeth, they're sparring! Gohan isn't powered up.

I wrote MANGA and the anime.

[RandomGuy96]

Because as young as Gohan was, his power was never treated lightly. It never devalued anything. Trunks and Goten got it through playing, and it was indeed a super saiyan bargain sale.

He's not "effortlessly dodging". There's no indication he still isn't using effort. He's still clearly serious (serious face, bared teeth, sweat) even to the last blow he blocks, right before he flies up in the air. Stop making stuff up.

The anime has far less credibility than the guidebooks.

You are 100% in the wrong. He's not gritting his teeth and sweating in those few frames. It's like you refuse to actually pay attention to the book. I just looked it up. Gohan is smilling as he's dodging the rocks and telling Goten that he's getting the hang of it. You keep evading that point. Why won't you comment on the frames where he's telling Goten he's getting the hang of things?

As for the gritted teeth, they're sparring! Gohan isn't powered up.

I wrote MANGA and the anime.

Who the hell was talking about the rock throwing scene? I'm talking about the spar, and am not ignoring anything. You're completely 100% wrong here, he looks serious, sweaty, and worried up to the last blow he blocks, right before he flies. Gohan not being at full power here and just pretending to be using effort for no reason is bullshit you just completely made up.

Yes, and I said that you shouldn't go by the anime. Or at least that there's no reason not to use the guidebooks if you're using something as self-contradictory as the anime.

[MDSTSSJ]

4-year-old Gohan could kill Goku or Piccolo, and he didn't even know how to punch. 10-year-old can kill base-SS2 Goku if he doesn't fly away.

Oh that's crazy! 4 year old Gohan Kill Piccolo or Goku is exaggerated. if Goku or Piccolo are off guard, enraged 4 year old Gohan can inflict seriously damage but not kill them.

10 year old Gohan kill base-SSJ2 Goku?? Is what you mean or I misunderstood that? This is even more crazy!

[ABED]

The rock throwing scene is a few panels before the sparring scene. It's the same part. And you ask whether I'VE read the manga. Their training session begins with Gohan testing his reflexes and being surprised by Goten's power. Either you are forgetting or you are evading the question.

The manga is self contradictory, I don't see what makes the guidebooks any more authoritative than the manga and anime.

Gohan not being at full power here and just pretending to be using effort for no reason is bullshit you just completely made up.

I've made up nothing, you are completely dismissing a few earlier panels and they aren't being super serious. Gohan is training with his little brother. You've taken gritting teeth and a bead of sweat to mean far more than Gohan exerting effort.

[Kamiccolo9]

4-year-old Gohan could kill Goku or Piccolo, and he didn't even know how to punch. 10-year-old can kill base-SS2 Goku if he doesn't fly away.

Oh that's crazy! 4 year old Gohan Kill Piccolo or Goku is exaggerated. if Goku or Piccolo are off guard, enraged 4 year old Gohan can inflict seriously damage but not kill them.

10 year old Gohan kill base-SSJ2 Goku?? Is what you mean or I misunderstood that? This is even more crazy!

4 year old Gohan crippled Raditz, who was at least 4 times as strong as Goku and Piccolo. Gohan would have smashed either Goku or Piccolo into a million pieces with that attack.

[ABED]

I wouldn't say he crippled Raditz as much as he injured him. We don't know the extent of the damage. He could've just bruised or cracked his sternum which I hear is very painful.

[Kamiccolo9]

I wouldn't say he crippled Raditz as much as he injured him. We don't know the extent of the damage. He could've just bruised or cracked his sternum which I hear is very painful.

It weakened him enough for an injured Goku, who, again, was at least 4 times weaker than Raditz, to hold him down for at least a minute. Maybe "crippled" was an exaggeration, but regardless, a blow like that would have splattered Goku or Piccolo.

[RandomGuy96]

The rock throwing scene is a few panels before the sparring scene. It's the same part. And you ask whether I'VE read the manga. Their training session begins with Gohan testing his reflexes and being surprised by Goten's power. Either you are forgetting or you are evading the question.

The manga is self contradictory, I don't see what makes the guidebooks any more authoritative than the manga and anime.

Gohan not being at full power here and just pretending to be using effort for no reason is bullshit you just completely made up.

I've made up nothing, you are completely dismissing a few earlier panels and they aren't being super serious. Gohan is training with his little brother. You've taken gritting teeth and a bead of sweat to mean far more than Gohan exerting effort.

The rock scene is be for Goten even goes SS. It has no relevance. I'm talking about the actual sparring scene.

Nowhere near as contradictory as the anime. Toriyama said that the writers of the Daizenshuu did a great job.

Nothing suggests he was pretending to be exerting effort when he really wasn't like you keep trying to push. Gohan was clearly struggling and was serious. Goku showed us that characters less than half of one's strength shouldn't make them struggle even a little. Even if if's 2 on 1. Stop making shit up just to nerf characters you don't like.

[ABED]

I never said pretend! Not once did I say that. I'm simply saying that Gohan isn't using his full effort. Serious, yes, but not full effort. It's SPARRING! You admit that, ergo, not them to their max.

Stop making shit up just to nerf characters you don't like.

First off, I do like both characters, and I never made this stuff up. And lastly, hi Pot, it's Kettle, you're black.

Goku showed us that characters less than half of one's strength shouldn't make them struggle even a little. Even if if's 2 on 1.

Did I say a number? NO, I just said Goten isn't as strong as Gohan and couldn't roflstomp Movie 8 Goku and company.