When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

[Kakarot88]

Guys, I think I may have just found the answer to this debate. I believe that Gohan was an SSJ1 for at least the fight against Dabura, and the reason why? Well, check this out. This is the entire scene played out, with Gohan and Kai confronting Dabura and Babidi, and Goku fighting Vegeta. Here we go...
...I dunno about you, but after looking at that, and looking at all the other evidence brought up by the SSJ1 side, I think I know what I'm going with.

See that line of reasoning I could agree with but for the power discrepancy, cuz visually it works but logically it does not.

I know SS2 has unique Ki, but we know Gohan can become SS2, so have I always taken Gohan during these chapters to be in his highest transformed state, and his ki looks weak to visually represent that it's just not all that great because he cannot harness his rage like he used too. But this is the best proposition I have seen for this theory.

[Fionordequester]

Dabra vs Gohan was short and inconclusive, with each fighter only hitting the other once. They weren't even damaging hits either. Goku and Vegeta actually beat the shit out of each other, and were bloody and bruised by the end.

I dunno. Gohan got caught by that Ki blast pretty good. And plus, we don't know if what we saw was actually all of what went on. As for Goku vs. Vegeta, they may have been bloodied and bruised by the end, but they too only hit each other once before we saw the energy bar getting filled.

See that line of reasoning I could agree with but for the power discrepancy, cuz visually it works but logically it does not. I know SS2 has unique Ki, but we know Gohan can become SS2, so have I always taken Gohan during these chapters to be in his highest transformed state, and his ki looks weak to visually represent that it's just not all that great because he cannot harness his rage like he used too. But this is the best proposition I have seen for this theory.

I think it works if we take Dabura to be a little bit weaker than Perfect Cell, and perhaps either holding back, or being slightly stronger than SSJ1 Gohan. We WAS pretty confident that he could defeat Gohan. Plus, I dunno about you, but Gohan seemed pretty nervous at the prospect of fighting him the second time.

[mAcChaos]

I see Gohan become super saiyan 2 once during the entire Buu arc and it's at the tournament for Kibito. Gohan isn't like Vegeta and Goku and couldn't use the form so easily. He appears to me to be super saiyan (1) afterwords. Goku tells Gohan to use full power after giving him a senzu bean, this seams to mean ssj2. He had just struggled against Dabra and got Vegeta angry at how long it was taking, saying Gohan should be able to win if he was stronger like he was when he was a kid. Vegeta calls it pathetic but it's true. Gohan didn't train at all and couldn't control the form. It was plain to me on my first read through the manga before I even knew about the debate. After Cell, poor Gohan probably never went ssj2 again until he was forced to against Kibito.

That makes sense. I mean last time he went SSJ2 he got his dad killed. So it is probably a bad memory every time he thinks about it.

What if the reason he stayed at SSJ1 was to:
a) Make sure Buu didn't get that much eergy
b) He was afraid he'd damage the earth (just like the fight against Cell) and none of them took Buu seriously enough to use SSJ2 for it.

I mean, Vegeta bragged about how they left everybody else in the dust, and it was pretty clear all of Babidi's minions, including Dabura, were small fry. So Gohan was never in any real danger since Goku and Vegeta were right there. I feel like he took the fight almost as just for sport, so he went SSJ1 and wanted to show off for his Dad.

Even when they were trying to stop Buu's ball from being released, none of them had any idea how powerful Buu would really be.

[RandomGuy96]

I dunno. Gohan got caught by that Ki blast pretty good. And plus, we don't know if what we saw was actually all of what went on. As for Goku vs. Vegeta, they may have been bloodied and bruised by the end, but they too only hit each other once before we saw the energy bar getting filled.

Gohan took absolutely no damage except for his clothes being torn a little. He was just tired after the battle, not injured.

[Fionordequester]

Gohan took absolutely no damage except for his clothes being torn a little. He was just tired after the battle, not injured.

Again, I must ask, are you absolutely POSITIVE that what we saw was actually the entire battle? And again, it didn't seem like Goku and Vegeta were very far into their fight either before the bar got filled.

[Son_Gohan]

I've already decided on this long ago, and I have expressed this opinion many times in the past (coincidentally, I brought this up again very recently). Super Saiyan Grade 1 & Super Saiyan Full Power/Grade 4 are two different forms, but they are both Super Saiyan 1. I didn't make this up on the way of our debate to avoid contradiction myself. I would even say that this isn't even an opinion, since the guidebooks make what I said clear.

This is called a mistake. I wasn't aware that Super Namekian Piccolo had an aura (and it's visible in my post from the screenshot you posted). I don't know everything, which is why I'm having discussions on this forum, to improve my knowledge, and if I'm proven wrong, change my mind on something. So far, you haven't proved that the aura isn't a trait of the SS forms, you haven't proven that the form of the aura is random, and you haven't proven that sparks isn't a trait of SS2/3.

How do I know you didn’t change your opinion since then and just switched back? People can only judge based on what you present to them. If you didn’t care to put more effort in your responses to make them unambiguous, then you only set yourself up for it. There’s no excuse when you’re explicitly told of it being convoluted. Counting on someone to take your word after the fact is too little, too late. Try harder next time.

The point is not that you were wrong about the manga, but how you directly contradict a previous statement you made after being disproven. Did I establish that as my intent? My initial post was in response to your own, suggesting auras were exclusive to an in-universe application, in which I entertained your subjective answers for. Perhaps that was a mistake.

To sum up why your opinion on “Full Power Super Saiyan” holds no ground in the first place is that you’re basing it off a subjective interpretation from the guidebooks, which are meant to be supplementary. You haven’t demonstrated enough evidence in the manga itself where it could be sustained; enough direct statements are made by characters in the story that would refute it. Furthermore, when establishing FPSSJ as its own form being the reason for having a different aura, you state that it “replaced” the original. Following that logic, the new aura should also replace the previous aura. But as shown with the example of Vegeta & Trunks, the regular aura is clearly still a part of the form. It never gets replaced as a matter of fact, even in Goku’s match with Cell:

Spoiler:

Therefore, your theory that FPSSJ would be a new form that replaced the original is contradicted. Making your reason that the aura would change contradicted. Which means you haven’t been able to prove why Trunks or Cell’s aura would appear so differently in the future.

That makes sense. I mean last time he went SSJ2 he got his dad killed. So it is probably a bad memory every time he thinks about it.

Not bad enough to prevent him showing it off at the tournament for no unavoidable reason.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

To sum up why your opinion on “Full Power Super Saiyan” holds no ground in the first place is that you’re basing it off a subjective interpretation from the guidebooks, which are meant to be supplementary. You haven’t demonstrated enough evidence in the manga itself where it could be sustained; enough direct statements are made by characters in the story that would refute it. Furthermore, when establishing FPSSJ as its own form being the reason for having a different aura, you state that it “replaced” the original. Following that logic, the new aura should also replace the previous aura. But as shown with the example of Vegeta & Trunks, the regular aura is clearly still a part of the form. It never gets replaced as a matter of fact, even in Goku’s match with Cell

I never said that the new aura replaced the old one, since the beginning I was saying that the new aura was added, but the old one stayed there as well. Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, Trunks, and even Cell display both auras during the Cell Games, and then we see Future Cell with both auras as well. So, with D2 stating that Goku got a new aura once he mastered Super Saiyan, and with it being visible in the manga, the new aura being part of the new version of Super Saiyan (which is Super Saiyan Full Power) is the only logical conclusion, if you want to follow the guidebooks.

You calling me a liar?

What?! When did I say that?

Looks like you missed the rest of that chapter

I didn't. Cell makes it very clear that if Gohan is going to die because he is hesitating to fight, so of course Goku would try to save him when he isn't doing anything to save his life.

Hell EVEN GOHAN HIMSELF SAID HE DID NOT KNOW HOW TO DEFEAT CELL

Gohan knows that Cell isn't using his full power.

[Kakarot88]

• Chapter: 405 (DBZ 211), P9.1-2
  Context: as Cell has Gohan in a bear hug
  Cell: “Well, how's this? It hurts, right? Get angry! You don’t want to die like this, do you? Well, what’s the matter? What are you hesitating for!? Your bones will break. There’s no way you could hate fighting this much.”

You missed that part. Gohan is still not fighting back. That's why Cell can crush him, not because he is stronger than him, but because Gohan refuses to fight back.

Hell EVEN GOHAN HIMSELF SAID HE DID NOT KNOW HOW TO DEFEAT CELL

Cell makes it very clear that if Gohan is going to die because he is hesitating to fight, so of course Goku would try to save him when he isn't doing anything to save his life…
Gohan knows that Cell isn't using his full power.

Are you trolling me right now or are you serious?

• SS1 Gohan powers up and non full powered Cell says Gohan cannot win and
  SS1 Gohan later concedes he cannot defeat non full powered cell.

Yet, somehow you still tout that SS1 Gohan could defeat non full powered Cell. You pick and choose what you want to believe rather than just reading what is laid out before you. So, let’s look at facts in order rather than picking and choosing:

• Gohan powers up as a Super Saiyan 1 and suppressed [as you call it] Cell firmly states Gohan has no chance against him.

  Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P2.3-4
  Context: after Gohan powers up[./b]
  Cell: “Looks like what Son Goku said wasn’t a complete bluff…But it seems he overstated things a little when he said you could defeat me…”

  
  But to you somehow that means Gohan could defeat Cell.
  I guess you assume Cell is lying for whatever reason.
  I mean if Cell were lying it makes sense he'd want to make someone already stronger than him even stronger because he's been suicidal for weeks now...
  
  After powering up Gohan and Cell begin to fight and during the fight Gohan does extremely well and is fairly unphased by Cell’s attacks.

  
  

  Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P6.4
  Context: after fighting Gohan a little
  Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least?”

  
  

  Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P12.6-7
  Context: after Cell beats up on Gohan
  Goku: “Don’t panic, Piccolo. Gohan’s ki hasn’t fallen one bit, has it?”
  Kuririn: “Ah…It-it’s true…!”

  
  
  

  Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P14.2
  Context: after Gohan isn’t fazed much by Cell’s attack
  Cell: “..Well, this is a surprise…You’re exceptionally tough, aren’t you?…”

  
  
  However, as the fight goes on Gohan realizes his power against the Cell he is facing, non full power Cell or "suppressed" Cell will not be enough.
  After Cell says Gohan is exceptionally tough Gohan tells Cell the fight is meaningless and he does not want to kill Cell.

  Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P15.4, P16.1
  Cell: “I understand perfectly well that you don’t like fighting …But I don’t really know what you mean when you say that you don’t want to kill me. You couldn’t kill me in a hundred years. Well, am I wrong?”

  
  
  Gohan begins to understand his father was banking on Gohan’s ability to expend immense power through rage.
  It is this power that is the only way Gohan can defeat Cell.

  Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P16.2-3
  Gohan: “I-I’m gradually starting to understand…What father means when he says I’m the only one who can defeat Cell…It seems that since long ago, whenever my anger flares up, I subconsciously begin fighting madly with outrageous power…So…father must be calculating on that…”

  
  
  Nowhere, not one instance, is Goku thinking Gohan without this hidden rage power going to be able to defeat Cell, and Gohan just straight up said he does not want to fly into a rage and kill Cell, but that's what's going to happen because Gohan's rage will flare up and that is the only chance Gohan has.

  Chapter: 405 (DBZ 211), P5.2
  Goku: “That’s it…That’s fine, Cell! Get Gohan angry…! If you do, you’ll experience true fear for the first time…”

  
  
  From here, Gohan at no point throws in the towel, the battle rages on with Gohan even taking the offensive at one point and kicking Cell, Cell then says he is determined to make Gohan angry and begins putting the pain on Gohan to get the rage to flare up.

  Chapter: 405 (DBZ 211), P9.1-2
  Context: as Cell has Gohan in a bear hug
  Cell: “Well, how's this? It hurts, right? Get angry! You don’t want to die like this, do you? Well, what’s the matter? What are you hesitating for!? Your bones will break. There’s no way you could hate fighting this much.”

  
  
  To which you respond:

  You missed that part. Gohan is still not fighting back. That's why Cell can crush him, not because he is stronger than him, but because Gohan refuses to fight back.

  
  Help me find that panel where Gohan gives up, please show me where Gohan is getting his ass beat and it is because he as an SS1 is not trying.
  Is it here? Is this where Gohan just stands there and gets hit?
  Spoiler:

  
  
  Nope, not there.
  
  Or maybe in here, is it here that Gohan gives up and just lets himself get beat up? Oh wait no, no not there either, first panel Gohan is even attacking Cell.
  Spoiler:

  
  
  
  I know I know! How about here, is there any sign of Gohan giving up here?
  Spoiler:

  
  
  
  Nope, wrong again…in fact on the very next page we see Gohan attack Cell and get beat!!!
  
  
  Nowhere not one place does Gohan say as a Super Saiyan 1 that he can beat “Supressed Cell” and in fact Gohan is owned by Cell without Cell going Full Power. After that kick the events with 16 being blown awaya and the Cell Juniors reacking havoc occurs…
  
  AND THEN GOHAN HIMSELF SAYS HE DOES NOT KNOW HOW TO DEFEAT CELL
  Here's Kanzenshuu's summary:

  ... Gohan sees that everyone is being killed, and knows he has amazing power hidden away. He wants to bring it out and defeat Cell, but he doesn’t know how to get angry and do it...

  
  
  here's Viz's Version:
  
  
  
  
  The only time Cell shows his full power is after Gohan goes SS2:

  Chapter: 409 (DBZ 215), P3.5
  Context: after Gohan says he can beat Cell
  Cell: “Well then, I’ll show you…! My fearsome true power…!"

  
  

  Chapter: 409 (DBZ 215), P8.2-4
  Context: after Cell powers up
  Goku: “S-so we finally get to see Cell fight at full power”
  Kuririn: “This ki is so astounding, it’s like the entire Earth is shaking.”
  Gohan: “What’s the big deal?”

This whole time you have been saying

• SS1 Gohan can defeat the Cell before him ie what you call “suppressed Cell” which has never been stated and in fact directly refuted by Cell and Gohan through actions and words.
  You also said that Gohan gave up against Cell and that is why Gohan as an SS1 was losing to “suppressed” Cell, again wrong, we see that Gohan goes to attack Cell after Cell takes the senzu and is summarily owned.

SS1 Gohan could NOT defeat Perfect form Cell EVEN when Cell was NOT at full power.
Cell says so and proves it.
Gohan says so and gets owned so he proves it.
Goku and Piccolo clearly believed the same when they saw Gohan being crushed to death.
Is there anything else, I'm forgetting...

Cell wasn't at full power yet, but he knew his true power. The chances are that SS Gohan can't defeat Full Power Cell, since Cell's power when fighting Goku didn't look amazing from Gohan's point of view, meaning that SS Gohan is stronger than Suppressed Cell.
...
Cell makes it very clear that if Gohan is going to die because he is hesitating to fight, so of course Goku would try to save him when he isn't doing anything to save his life.

Actions speak louder than speculation:


Unless, now you wanna flip flop again and say Gohan attacked but not with all his effort because he is sucicidal

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Can you please stop talking like an asshole with ironic words & emotics, and calm down? We are not fighting or splitting our money, we are talking about a freaking comic book made for kids.

Are you trolling me right now or are you serious?
SS1 Gohan powers up and non full powered Cell says Gohan cannot win and
SS1 Gohan later concedes he cannot defeat non full powered cell.

Both Cell & Gohan know that he has more power hidden, and Gohan said that Cell's power wasn't impressive. Cell even ended up lying in the floor with blood in his face after Gohan kicked him. Cell only managed to do to Gohan what he did because Gohan refused to fight back.

You pick and choose what you want to believe rather than just reading what is laid out before you.

It's you that does that, not me. You ignore the fact that Gohan isn't fighting back and act like Gohan is dying because he can't beat Cell, you ignore the fact that Gohan didn't find Cell's power impressive, and you ignore the fact that Gohan knows that Cell has more hidden. And you also act like Cell doesn't know he has more power hidden, he doesn't have to use his full power to say that "you can't beat me", like Goku doesn't have to go SS3 to say to Piccolo that he can kill Cell with one blow.

Help me find that panel where Gohan gives up, please show me where Gohan is getting his ass beat and it is because he as an SS1 is not trying.

All Gohan does in the whole fight is one kick. Except for that, he just avoids or blocks Cell's hits (unsuccessfully some times), and tells him to stop because he doesn't want to fight, because he doesn't like fighting & is afraid to get angry because he can't control himself. Even when Cell stops fighting, Gohan stops as well.

[Kakarot88]

Can you please stop talking like an asshole with ironic words & emotics, and calm down? We are not fighting or splitting our money, we are talking about a freaking comic book made for kids.

Bahaha that was genuinely funny!
Ok, you seem like you got a sense of humor so maybe I have been taking all of your comments the wrong way. But the whole enlarging words and dismissive attitude was rude, given that I kept providing background support for what I was saying. So I was just responding to what I thought was in kind. My, first response to you even began with "respectfully," and went on from there.

You know where I stand and I know where you stand on the subject;

All Gohan does in the whole fight is one kick. Except for that, he just avoids or blocks Cell's hits (unsuccessfully some times), and tells him to stop because he doesn't want to fight, because he doesn't like fighting & is afraid to get angry because he can't control himself. Even when Cell stops fighting, Gohan stops as well. [and paraphrasing your words] because Gohan said Cell's power during Cell vs. his Dad was not that great that means Gohan can beat anything but full powered Cell

Gohan during the fight with Cell realizes the only way to win is through rage, which will likely kill Cell because it requires him to lose control. Gohan can either die or lose control, those are his options neither he likes. Gohan lacks the power to defeat Cell as an SS1 and needs the rage boost, and despite not wanting to kill still fights because he also does not want to die and we see Gohan attack Cell on more than one occasion even once after Cell has bear hugged him, and Cell again summarily outclasses SS1 Gohan without being at full power:

[/quote]

We both believe our understanding is the only correct choice. We've come to a loggerhead and I don't see any way for us to reconcile our difference of opinion. So to move past this impasse I think we ought to just agreeing to disagree. I do not agree with your characterization of what I have provided, but I want to move on, and leave it at that. I've done all I can, the proof is in the thread. People can do with it what they want, it's like they say, you can bring a horse to water but cannot make it drink.

So...I respectfully agree to disagree with you for the above aforementioned reasons, and apologize for reacting to what I felt was directed animus on your end. Ball is now in your court.

In the future, or maybe it's just me, when someone is trying to add to the debate by providing data sources, if you disagree it'd behoove you to maybe come with some of your own sources as well. Otherwise, it looks like you are just being difficult. I think that's where you and I (well and Kaboom from earlier) all clashed. If you have an opinion back it up with proof, even if it's general knowledge, citation really should be provided if your point is being contested. There's already enough bad info
out there without the addition of citation-less postulates.

Till next time , hope we can converse more amicably in the future.

That intro was pretty damn funny

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The page where Gohan attacks is when Cell Jr.s attack, and that's also when Gohan starts trying to get angry. But before that, he was unwilling to fight at all, and was only defensive.

Ok, you seem like you got a sense of humor so maybe I have been taking all of your comments the wrong way. But the whole enlarging words and dismissive attitude was rude, given that I kept providing background support for what I was saying. So I was just responding to what I thought was in kind. My, first response to you even began with "respectfully," and went on from there.

You know where I stand and I know where you stand on the subject;

Yeah, I'm aware that you are not an asshole and just overreacted, since it has happened before with others and you apologized. So, we are cool.

[RandomGuy96]

I'd also like to chime in and say that the description for Dabra's sword saying he used it against "Super Saiyan Gohan" doesn't actually mean anything. The item dictionary just calls SS2 Gohan "Super Saiyan Gohan".

Energy Suction Device
First Appearance: chapter 444
Category: miscellaneous
Explanation: A tool for extracting the sacred energy needed to revive Majin Buu. Manipulated by the wizard Babidi, Yamu used this at the Tenkaichi Budoukai, a gathering of people with strong power. He harvested an enormous amount of energy from Super Saiyan Gohan.

So, again, no contradiction.

Again, I must ask, are you absolutely POSITIVE that what we saw was actually the entire battle? And again, it didn't seem like Goku and Vegeta were very far into their fight either before the bar got filled.

Maybe not, but even if it wasn't, Gohan showed no signs of harm. He didn't even have a scratch on him when the battle concluded, while Goku and Vegeta were bloodied and bruised.

[Kakarot88]

The page where Gohan attacks is when Cell Jr.s attack, and that's also when Gohan starts trying to get angry. But before that, he was unwilling to fight at all, and was only defensive.

There seems to be some confusion, I'm referring specifically to these pages that I linked above where Gohan attacks Cell, after Cell gets the senzu, but just before 16 gets the drop on Cell and then gets blown away, which is before the Cell Jr.s are birthed, before the Cell Jr.'s attack and before 16's head gets crushed.
This is right after the bear hug and before Gohan says he wants to defeat Cell but does not know how.

Moreover, these pages I posted above are what occur right after Gohan says the fight is meaningless because he realizes the only way to win is to kill Cell because he needs his uncontrollable rage, and prior to that Gohan jumped in powered up and started fighting.

[Super Vegetto]

Cell was faster than Gohan at that point, but his power didn't changed at all. It's even stated by Piccolo that Gohan is number 1 at that moment, but that doesn't mean he can beat Cell.

[Kakarot88]

Cell was faster than Gohan at that point, but his power didn't changed at all. It's even stated by Piccolo that Gohan is number 1 at that moment, but that doesn't mean he can beat Cell.

Yessir I believe we are indeed in agreement, unless I am mistaken. And if that be the case...Oh no some more confusion. Hopefully I can clear this up. Scans are posted above too. Ok well to be frank I'm not sure how people keep missing these things that's why I posted all context and even drawings (please see above) but Piccolo makes an "even if" statement to beseech Goku for help.

"Even if gohan's power is #1 he's still just a kid..."
Context meaning:
"Hey dumb ass (read as Son Goku) even if your kid's power is number 1 (as you claim and none of us have seen) he's being killed..."
All drawings and Kanzenshuu summaries are posted in link form as well as images for convenience up above in the thread for convenience. Hope that helps

Now sir if you're only point was that indeed yes son Gohan was a quickER than that ragga muffin Cell well then indeed yessir that is the case! But by context unfortunately you seem to advocate quite a different and unsupported proposition. If that is not the case please clarify, cuz well we all know that the evil Cell has to be faster than we thought because the gentleman must increase his speed for Gohan but not his power ...well sir I hope that was your point. Seeing as how Gohan does indeed admit (please see above) he cannot beat Cell (as a SS1) and Cell still had not gone full power.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

There seems to be some confusion, I'm referring specifically to these pages that I linked above where Gohan attacks Cell, after Cell gets the senzu, but just before 16 gets the drop on Cell and then gets blown away, which is before the Cell Jr.s are birthed, before the Cell Jr.'s attack and before 16's head gets crushed.
This is right after the bear hug and before Gohan says he wants to defeat Cell but does not know how.

Moreover, these pages I posted above are what occur right after Gohan says the fight is meaningless because he realizes the only way to win is to kill Cell because he needs his uncontrollable rage, and prior to that Gohan jumped in powered up and started fighting.

Checked, you are right. But my point still stands, because Gohan attacked because Cell had taken the senzu & was threatening to attack his friends.

But anyway, why is this a debate when Gohan himself admitted that he was stronger than Cell? Except if you think that Cell powered up? We know that Gohan is stronger, we know that Cell got faster than Gohan, and thus can get stronger as well, and we know that Gohan is unwilling to fight and barely fights back, but later wants to get the rage boost so that he can definitely beat Cell even if he goes full power, and save his friends. The only way for Suppressed Cell > SS Gohan to make sense is to assume that Cell is using more power than he did against Goku, but nothing indicates that (Cell only increased his speed, but there is no indication that he increased his power).

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Goku says the only chance they have of winning is through Gohan's hidden powers. Without that, Gohan has no chance. So, Gohan definitely isn't strong enough to beat Cell at that point--even if he's willing to fight and has a slight power advantage. Obviously he wouldn't have looked as pathetic as he did if he actually wanted to fight Cell.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Goku says the only chance they have of winning is through Gohan's hidden powers. Without that, Gohan has no chance. So, Gohan definitely isn't strong enough to beat Cell at that point--even if he's willing to fight and has a slight power advantage. Obviously he wouldn't have looked as pathetic as he did if he actually wanted to fight Cell.

But that's because Goku is almost sure that Cell wasn't going all-out on him. Gohan said that Goku's & Cell's powers didn't look amazing to him, and Cell never powered up until after Gohan turned SS2.

[xmysticgohanx]

(Cell only increased his speed, but there is no indication that he increased his power).

Increased speed = increased power because force = mass x acceleration. Then again this is dbz not rl. Judging from my experience (I'm a boxer) when someone trys to punch weaker what they actually do is slow down their punch. I guess when cell said he increased his speed what he actually meant was his flight speed.

[Super Vegetto]

Cell was faster than Gohan at that point, but his power didn't changed at all. It's even stated by Piccolo that Gohan is number 1 at that moment, but that doesn't mean he can beat Cell.

Yessir I believe we are indeed in agreement, unless I am mistaken. And if that be the case...Oh no some more confusion. Hopefully I can clear this up. Scans are posted above too. Ok well to be frank I'm not sure how people keep missing these things that's why I posted all context and even drawings (please see above) but Piccolo makes an "even if" statement to beseech Goku for help.

"Even if gohan's power is #1 he's still just a kid..."
Context meaning:
"Hey dumb ass (read as Son Goku) even if your kid's power is number 1 (as you claim and none of us have seen) he's being killed..."
All drawings and Kanzenshuu summaries are posted in link form as well as images for convenience up above in the thread for convenience. Hope that helps

Now sir if you're only point was that indeed yes son Gohan was a quickER than that ragga muffin Cell well then indeed yessir that is the case! But by context unfortunately you seem to advocate quite a different and unsupported proposition. If that is not the case please clarify, cuz well we all know that the evil Cell has to be faster than we thought because the gentleman must increase his speed for Gohan but not his power ...well sir I hope that was your point. Seeing as how Gohan does indeed admit (please see above) he cannot beat Cell (as a SS1) and Cell still had not gone full power.

I maybe won't change your opinion but i will post this for opinion i have...

Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P6.5, P7.1-6
Context: after Goku asks Gohan to be the next one to fight Cell
Piccolo: “Don’t talk crazy, Goku! There’s no way he’d be able to fight! It’s true that he’s raised his abilities so much that he’s unrecognizable, but his opponent is Cell, who even you were no match for!”
Goku: “Piccolo, Gohan has more unbelievable power than we think. Think about it. He’s fought the same as everyone since he was a little squirt…When I was about his age, I wasn’t anything special.”
Kuririn: “B-but even if he’s become a Super Saiyan…Th-this is so quick…”
Goku: “In the Room of Spirit and Time, the dormant power sealed away deep, deep inside him began to be released. Why don’t we try asking him? How about it, Gohan? Did you think that dad and Cell’s fight just now was too incredible and you couldn’t keep up?”
Gohan: “N-no, I didn’t think so…But neither of you were fighting all-out, right…!?”
Goku: “I don’t know about Cell, but I was going all-out. So in other words, to you it felt like I was holding back?”


Gohan thinks that Goku wasn't going all out because he still think that Goku is stronger than him...Just by this Gohan should be superior to supressed Cell when he powers up to Full Power, or atlest step ahead of him in power and speed.

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P6.4
Context: after fighting Gohan a little
Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least?”

Later Cell neaded to incrise his speed to catch Gohan, but he didn't nead or didn't powered up against him at all, until Gohan transformed in SSJ2.


The gap could be realy small, but again i see Gohan as superior because he didn't think Goku vs Cell was incredible fight, compered to his power and speed...