Dragon Ball Z "Seasons" On Blu-ray: News & Discussion

[Kojiro Sasaki]

(AND before you jump at me for saying that, read the following paragraphs where I explain why I feel that way and why the level sets are perfect despite my personal preferences)

Nobody will never jump at you for expressing your opinion. Especially when you did it that way

When people watch Z, it is because they accept the oldness of it and want to see it as aged as it is! They want to keep everything that was part of the Z experience back then: all details including the "old times" grain, the old score, the crazy fillers, the slightly washed out colors... They want to see it as "a product of its time" as Mike said... if I remember well, at least.

100% agree, but there is one thing I want to add. It's not only about "accepting oldness". Some people (me) just want to see the show in its original form, because they are aware of the fact that old television broadcast or home video formats were unable to present it as it originally looks, due to their limitations. So, I want to see things I never saw before, but always knew about their existence (...maybe not always ).

From a certain point of view, it's not that Dragon Ball needs to be brought up to the modern era - It's modern era that barely caught up with Dragon Ball when blu-ray format appeared.

I want "originality" of the show, despite of it being old or new, bad or good, ugly or pretty The fact that I simply prefer older shows is not the part of this particular point of view.

[Black_Anime_Fan]

This isn't a SD DVD quality where the grain is hidden.

Since when is the grain hidden on DVDs? I've been watching Dragon Ball: Collection Part One (Saga sets) and the video is very grainy (I don't have any DNR filters activated), the GT Singles (Dragon Box GT Compressed) was also grainy and so was the US Dragonbox Z Collection but of course going by screenshot comparisons don't really do it much justice. It has to be seen in-motion.

Plus, that sounds like something Steve Franco would say "in standard def the grain was kind of smudged over because you didn't really see the grain".

Let me rephrase what I said. If Dragon Ball: The Collection were released on Blu-Ray in HD with the same treatment, then you'd see more of the grain on the footage because HD video is clearer than SD (which is obvious, I know). But yeah, I guess I could've used a better word other than "hidden", I know it's there, it's just not as noticeable on DVD. But also, does it really matter that what I said sounded like something Steve Franco would say? What he said was true regardless.

Try and work with the masters FUNimation were given and tell me you could do any better.

What? Is that you suggesting the masters were not good enough for FUNimation to do better with? Well, how would you know? Have you exactly seen the masters? Or are you basing it off of stuff FUNimation have said? FUNimation haven't ever done a great remaster, with anything. Look at Cowboy Bebop and Berserk remasters done in Japan, they look like real remasters, without having to have grain all over them. But of course, I have no idea whether they were printed on 16mm film or 35mm film. But there's also Kai. Kai has a much better remastering process than the Level Sets. The blurriness has nothing to do with the remastering - it was a post-production thing. Kai just has a much more remastered-in-HD look, when sharpened, than the level sets do.

Um, what? The masters that FUNimation use aren't the ones that Toei uses. The ones FUNimation uses are dirtier/grainier, and a lot darker than the masters Toei uses. So whether or not FUNimation bump up the brightness or not (as was the case with the Level BDs), you're going to get crushed blacks regardless, so I'm not "basing" what FUNimation said, it's a known fact. And no, Kai's case was completely different. Kai was remastered in a way to look like a new series, the Levels were remastered to try and look like how the ORIGINAL series was meant to look. Of course, they couldn't do it completely because of their limitations (black crushing and grainier film), but other than that, compared to the rest of DBZ's releases, the Levels had the least amount of problems, and looked more faithful to the original footage than every other release.

[samuraix123]

Cold Skin I wouldn't jump on to ya buddy everybody has got their own thing

[Enigmo]

Um, what? The masters that FUNimation use aren't the ones that Toei uses. The ones FUNimation uses are dirtier/grainier, and a lot darker than the masters Toei uses. So whether or not FUNimation bump up the brightness or not (as was the case with the Level BDs), you're going to get crushed blacks regardless, so I'm not "basing" what FUNimation said, it's a known fact. And no, Kai's case was completely different. Kai was remastered in a way to look like a new series, the Levels were remastered to try and look like how the ORIGINAL series was meant to look. Of course, they couldn't do it completely because of their limitations (black crushing and grainier film), but other than that, compared to the rest of DBZ's releases, the Levels had the least amount of problems, and looked more faithful to the original footage than every other release.

I didn't say they didn't have a worse version to work from, I'm just asking how do you know how bad it was? And wait, no.... Kai wasn't remastered to look like a modern show.... the end product was aimed to be more modern, but the actual remastering process itself wasn't. Have you even watched Kai? There are so many film artifacts left on that make it look old; more so than the level sets. The only film "artifact" that the level sets have is grain, but I have many doubts about that even being real grain.... Just watch Kai. You'll see, on the black parts, you see dust, finger prints and a lot more. And again, how do you know the blacks being crushed was already in the film? How are you so certain it wasn't a part of FUNi's colour correction?

[qjz123]

And again, how do you know the blacks being crushed was already in the film? How are you so certain it wasn't a part of FUNi's colour correction?

The orange bricks, the level sets, and the season blu rays all had the same crushed black issues. The problem isn't the remastering process it's the film it self.

[Cold Skin]

What do you have against 4:3?

Well, it's sort of a personal preference too, I feel more immersed, more "inside the action" when it's widescreen than when it's 4:3 square shaped.
I thought for a while it was because of the black bars - even recently -, but I do remember it never bothered me when I had a 4:3 TV and widescreen picture inside, I even made it that way whenever I could (meaning when the picture would not be distorted thanks to the appropriate options on my TV and games).
I wouldn't know how to explain it, but I've always liked the "rectangle" shape way more than the "square" shape when playing a game or watching a video.

It could be because it supposedly mimics the natural field of view, but I'm not sure it's the reason why I like it, since I'm well aware that some researches tend to show that our field of view would realistically be actually closer to 4:3 than to 16:9!

So I don't know, there's no real reason, I always liked the widescreen videos and video games (I remember turning on the "widescreen" option of games like Tomb Raider Legend on my 4:3 TV rather than playing full screen 4:3, even if it meant black bars on the top and bottom of my screen - again, when my TV set and games were meant to display it properly, as I would not play or watch squashed pictures).

So, it's not a big help, but my answer would be: because the rectangle shape just really helps me feeling immersed in whatever I see compared to the square shape, otherwise something feels off, something feels a little uncomfortable somehow.

[Black_Anime_Fan]

Um, what? The masters that FUNimation use aren't the ones that Toei uses. The ones FUNimation uses are dirtier/grainier, and a lot darker than the masters Toei uses. So whether or not FUNimation bump up the brightness or not (as was the case with the Level BDs), you're going to get crushed blacks regardless, so I'm not "basing" what FUNimation said, it's a known fact. And no, Kai's case was completely different. Kai was remastered in a way to look like a new series, the Levels were remastered to try and look like how the ORIGINAL series was meant to look. Of course, they couldn't do it completely because of their limitations (black crushing and grainier film), but other than that, compared to the rest of DBZ's releases, the Levels had the least amount of problems, and looked more faithful to the original footage than every other release.

I didn't say they didn't have a worse version to work from, I'm just asking how do you know how bad it was? And wait, no.... Kai wasn't remastered to look like a modern show.... the end product was aimed to be more modern, but the actual remastering process itself wasn't. Have you even watched Kai? There are so many film artifacts left on that make it look old; more so than the level sets. The only film "artifact" that the level sets have is grain, but I have many doubts about that even being real grain.... Just watch Kai. You'll see, on the black parts, you see dust, finger prints and a lot more. And again, how do you know the blacks being crushed was already in the film? How are you so certain it wasn't a part of FUNi's colour correction?

1. Welcome to film restoration processes.
2. It was real grain, you must've had your sharpness setting set too high, which would probably be likely seeing as how you bump your sharpness setting to watch Kai.
3. I'll admit, I haven't watched too much of Kai, but I've watched it enough, and I didn't see any instance of film dirt/artifacts. That would kinda negate the whole remastering they've done anyway.
4. Wouldn't color correction fix footage that look either too dark or too bright anyway? I doubt color correction has anything to do with it.

[kidglov3s]

19 New Double Cross comparisons, thanks for uploading new screencaps qjz123!

Spoiler:

[eledoremassis02]

I like the colors on the new set. I do wish they continued with the level quality (even if they stopped correcting every blemish. Are there any issues with Tape marks on these (like sometimes on the orange bricks)

[Enigmo]

You haven't seen the film artifacts in Kai? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv9-CBDW8eA Here you go. They're clear as day here. And pretty much any decent Bluray remaster of an old Anime TV series I've seen has this sort of stuff. But the only other two I have seen are Berserk and Cowboy Bebop, and they both look really good in 1080p and have this sort of stuff too. If you compare Kai (when sharpened) to Bebop and Berserk's blurays, the three have this sort of element that the level sets didn't. I can't quite touch on what it is. It's like if you degrained the level sets, you wouldn't get a great picture. But Kai (sharpened), Bebop and Berserk, when degrained, still look incredibly good.

The orange bricks, the level sets, and the season blu rays all had the same crushed black issues. The problem isn't the remastering process it's the film it self.

They all also had their colours adjusted by FUNimation.... this includes the Alpha and Luma levels a.k.a the whites and blacks. And if you're thinking FUNi don't play around with that stuff, well in the level sets, for some reason they decided to turn the blacks into dark gray, even though it was all already crushed to the point of being solid black. FUNimation just lack skill and understanding. Why is that so hard to accept?

[qjz123]

The orange bricks, the level sets, and the season blu rays all had the same crushed black issues. The problem isn't the remastering process it's the film it self.

They all also had their colours adjusted by FUNimation.... this includes the Alpha and Luma levels a.k.a the whites and blacks. And if you're thinking FUNi don't play around with that stuff, well in the level sets, for some reason they decided to turn the blacks into dark gray, even though it was all already crushed to the point of being solid black. FUNimation just lack skill and understanding. Why is that so hard to accept?

Lol you honestly believe that it's more likely that they changed the colors resulting in crushed blacks on 3 separate releases than the actual film it self halving a problem? Lol good luck with that one.

[Enigmo]

Lol you honestly believe that it's more likely that they changed the colors resulting in crushed blacks on 3 separate releases than the actual film it self halving a problem? Lol good luck with that one.

So is that you suggesting FUNimation would have learned from their mistakes and fixed it up? FUNimation learning from their mistakes is as likely to happen as a mythical creature ringing your doorbell. The fact that Season 2 still looks too bright--like the colours are so bright that the lines look diluted--shows they did not learn from their mistakes with the orange bricks. And no, don't start blaming the film again. The original singles weren't this bright and in what we did see of Level 2.1, they were absolutely fine. FUNimation are just....not great.

[qjz123]

Lol you honestly believe that it's more likely that they changed the colors resulting in crushed blacks on 3 separate releases than the actual film it self halving a problem? Lol good luck with that one.

So is that you suggesting FUNimation would have learned from their mistakes and fixed it up? FUNimation learning from their mistakes is as likely to happen as a mythical creature ringing your doorbell. The fact that Season 2 still looks too bright--like the colours are so bright that the lines look diluted--shows they did not learn from their mistakes with the orange bricks. And no, don't start blaming the film again. The original singles weren't this bright and in what we did see of Level 2.1, they were absolutely fine. FUNimation are just....not great.

Funimation did learn from their mistakes with the orange bricks.
Orange brick
http://i.imgur.com/VrI57CV.png
Season 2 blu ray
http://i6.minus.com/ikhUObMuj69P8.png
What your saying makes no sense 3 separate releases have crushed blacks in the same places most notably episode 1. They all have different remastering processes. To say that Funimation messed up the same thing in the same place 3 separate times is much more unlikely than something being wrong with their prints.

[TheGreatness25]

Honestly, these things do look great. I can even say that they look better than the Level sets. I know everyone treasures their precious level sets, but they never looked "Blu-ray" to me. The picture was still so grainy. I honestly felt like they should have had no problem releasing that on DVD. The only real difference to me was the colors. These things actually look like they are Blu-ray. The only thing that upsets me is that it's in 16:9. Other than that, these sets do look really good. And that age old, "the grain is supposed to be there!" doesn't really seem to be the case. It looks good without all that grain and dirt. Now, honestly, the problem I have with the 16:9 isn't that it's cutting out the top and bottom of the picture. This project is basically making DBZ into something it's not, an HD release. So the fact that they tamper with it as they need to in order for it to conform to a real HD release (in today's world everything is wide screen) doesn't bug me. The part that bugs me is that there are instances (like in the original Season set release) where there is a close-up on a character talking and the mouth is cut off. I haven't really watched much of these yet, I know that supposedly they did a sophisticated crop, but so far it looks like the exact same cropping as the Season sets.

[RocktheDragon]

Honestly, these things do look great. I can even say that they look better than the Level sets. I know everyone treasures their precious level sets, but they never looked "Blu-ray" to me. The picture was still so grainy. I honestly felt like they should have had no problem releasing that on DVD. The only real difference to me was the colors. These things actually look like they are Blu-ray. The only thing that upsets me is that it's in 16:9. Other than that, these sets do look really good. And that age old, "the grain is supposed to be there!" doesn't really seem to be the case. It looks good without all that grain and dirt. Now, honestly, the problem I have with the 16:9 isn't that it's cutting out the top and bottom of the picture. This project is basically making DBZ into something it's not, an HD release. So the fact that they tamper with it as they need to in order for it to conform to a real HD release (in today's world everything is wide screen) doesn't bug me. The part that bugs me is that there are instances (like in the original Season set release) where there is a close-up on a character talking and the mouth is cut off. I haven't really watched much of these yet, I know that supposedly they did a sophisticated crop, but so far it looks like the exact same cropping as the Season sets.

If you look far enough back in this thread you can see some cropping differences between the orange bricks and this BD release, and it is better in some instances.

I find your overall approach to this release interesting because you have a problem with how part of the picture is being cropped but that's as far as your problems with this release go. What makes watching something with preserved grain such a bad thing to you? I do agree that this BD release is attempting to make DBZ into something it isn't, perhaps to open itself up to a larger potential audience and market.

[TheGreatness25]

I'm not saying that the grain ruins the show. But watching it in Blu-ray and having it look all grainy really doesn't make it feel like it's on Blu-ray. It makes it feel like it could have been released on DVD. I have the Dragon Boxes, I have arguably the real "way it was meant to be seen" so to make it Blu-ray and say, "This is the way it was meant to be seen" is false. There was no concept of Blu-ray back then. Now the point of Blu-ray is all about picture quality. And when you look at DBZ the "way it was meant to be seen" it does not have good picture quality. So you do have to tamper with it and make it look like the shows look today...digital and computer-generated. Can't come close unless you clean up the film. Now when you take stills from thease Season releases, it looks like it could have been released today. That was the goal and that's awesome. I want it to look different and I want it to stand out more. Otherwise, I have the DVDs, if you're not going to make it look any better, don't put it on Blu-ray.

It is turning into something it's not because in its inception, the concept of Blu-ray was just non-existent. I like that it's different. Brings a fresh perspective. And again, if that means cropping because that's what's "in" these days, by all means. Kai did it and nobody went into an uproar about that because it was done selectively. Now if you're telling me that this release didn't just feed the whole film through and crop out the top and bottom undiscriminantly like the Season Sets, then I will say that it's a good thing and yay that they learned from their mistakes.

[Kojiro Sasaki]

I'm not saying that the grain ruins the show. But watching it in Blu-ray and having it look all grainy really doesn't make it feel like it's on Blu-ray. It makes it feel like it could have been released on DVD. I have the Dragon Boxes, I have arguably the real "way it was meant to be seen" so to make it Blu-ray and say, "This is the way it was meant to be seen" is false. There was no concept of Blu-ray back then. Now the point of Blu-ray is all about picture quality. And when you look at DBZ the "way it was meant to be seen" it does not have good picture quality. So you do have to tamper with it and make it look like the shows look today...digital and computer-generated. Can't come close unless you clean up the film. Now when you take stills from thease Season releases, it looks like it could have been released today. That was the goal and that's awesome. I want it to look different and I want it to stand out more. Otherwise, I have the DVDs, if you're not going to make it look any better, don't put it on Blu-ray.

There was no concept of DVD Video back then. Tell me... What is the blu-ray format? What is the difference between blu-ray and DVD Video in your opinion?

It is turning into something it's not because in its inception, the concept of Blu-ray was just non-existent. I like that it's different. Brings a fresh perspective. And again, if that means cropping because that's what's "in" these days, by all means. Kai did it and nobody went into an uproar about that because it was done selectively. Now if you're telling me that this release didn't just feed the whole film through and crop out the top and bottom undiscriminantly like the Season Sets, then I will say that it's a good thing and yay that they learned from their mistakes.

Nobody wants to turn Dragon Ball into something. Some people want it as it already is. This what you called "Blu-ray concept" has nothing to do with the fact that 1440x1080 barely matches 16 mm film resolution. Actually, there is no such thing as "Blu-ray concept". In "these days", many old school classics are restored without cropping or "making it look modern". Matching 16 mm film resolution is the only point of the DVD to Blu-ray update as far as Dragon Ball TV series is considered.

Considering Dragon Ball "size" and meaning of the word "fan", I don't think that anybody has the right to make any alterations to make the show look as he or she wants. By the way, if you know the kind of grain removal which does not remove a single pixel of the original artwork - I have nothing against grain filtering.

[Kendamu]

Kai did it and nobody went into an uproar about that because it was done selectively.

No, fans of 4:3 were cool with it because there was a simultaneous 4:3 release. You were given the option of one or the other. In this case, you can only get this in 16:9. There's no other release that's still in print that presents every episode in 4:3.

[Vegard Aune]

Honestly, these things do look great. I can even say that they look better than the Level sets. I know everyone treasures their precious level sets, but they never looked "Blu-ray" to me. The picture was still so grainy. I honestly felt like they should have had no problem releasing that on DVD. The only real difference to me was the colors. These things actually look like they are Blu-ray. The only thing that upsets me is that it's in 16:9. Other than that, these sets do look really good. And that age old, "the grain is supposed to be there!" doesn't really seem to be the case. It looks good without all that grain and dirt. Now, honestly, the problem I have with the 16:9 isn't that it's cutting out the top and bottom of the picture. This project is basically making DBZ into something it's not, an HD release. So the fact that they tamper with it as they need to in order for it to conform to a real HD release (in today's world everything is wide screen) doesn't bug me. The part that bugs me is that there are instances (like in the original Season set release) where there is a close-up on a character talking and the mouth is cut off. I haven't really watched much of these yet, I know that supposedly they did a sophisticated crop, but so far it looks like the exact same cropping as the Season sets.

The Levels were far sharper and more detailed than these sets. The 480p Dragon Boxes were sharper and more detailed than these sets. And this is not a matter of opinion, those are proven facts. Really, all those comparisons between FUNi's initial singles and these that have been coming in here the past few days to me tell the whole story. 15-year-old DVDs based off multigenerational digibeta-tapes should not have a comparable level of detail to a 1080p release remastered off 16mm film stock. Heck, when it comes to the backgrounds those old DVDs actually show more detail than this 1080p remaster done off 16mm film stock.

[samuraix123]

I just got season 2 in the mail. Everything is perfect! If anybody wants me to check something out for them I will but I can't take screen shots.