Unpopular DB opinions

[ABED]

Gohan got angry and unlocked his hidden power. SS2 was his hidden power. You are looking far too deep at what is very surface level.

It obviously wasn't temporary against Cell, since Gohan had a complete change of personality. It seems that SS2 maintained Gohan's rage boost.

It didn't maintain his rage boost. His rage caused a transformation, end of story. He was overflowing with power and riding a wave of emotions, he got caught up in it. You inferred wrongly that the transformation changed him. It only did so indirectly. I didn't even change his personality forever. He goes back to who he usually is when Cell is about to explode, but he still stays SS2.

No, there is the story present in the manga, the story present in the anime, the story present in a video game, etc. There are many alternative takes of the story, Toriyama's story is just the original one. No matter how you slice it, there is no official canon.

No, there's just Toriyama's story, he's the author, ergo, his story is canon. An anime adaptation doesn't supersede the author. What are you even getting at? If someone adapts the work of the original author, there's no longer an official canon? That makes NO sense whatsoever, there are different takes, but one official take, the one written by the original author. The Sherlock Holmes stories written by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle don't cease to be canon just because his character is one of if not the most adapted character in all of fiction.

Vegeta even sees SS2 Gohan's power, says that it was far bigger against Cell and that he is stronger than him now, but there is no telling what would happen if he had gotten angry. Daizenshuu 2 even states directly that SS2 Gohan was weaker both because he didn't train, and because he couldn't get power from his anger. There is no debate, it's been made very clear that Gohan got SS2 + Rage Boost against Cell, and he could only turn into SS2 in Boo arc easily, but couldn't get a rage boost on top of it.

You are inferring what you want to. Gohan got soft, that's it. I don't count the Daizenshuu, it's not the original work. I'm going purely off the original work. The fact that Gohan couldn't get stronger due to rage at a different point in the story doesn't mean that Gohan experienced another boost on top of what was already a considerable boost from the transformation in the Cell Games. It doesn't make any sense. Why complicate things by having Gohan transform and then get a boost on top of that? The transformation was the boost!

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Gohan got angry and unlocked his hidden power. SS2 was his hidden power. You are looking far too deep at what is very surface level.

So, Gohan was tapping to his SS2 power all this time, from Raditz's attack?! Goku & Vegeta didn't show that ability, yet they could transform into SS2?

No, there's just Toriyama's story, he's the author, ergo, his story is canon. An anime adaptation doesn't supersede the author. What are you even getting at? If someone adapts the work of the original author, there's no longer an official canon? That makes NO sense whatsoever, there are different takes, but one official take, the one written by the original author. The Sherlock Holmes stories written by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle don't cease to be canon just because his character is one of if not the most adapted character in all of fiction.

Yeah... you are wrong. There is no official established canon, end of story. You can have your personal canon, but there is no official canon for Dragon Ball.

You are inferring what you want to. Gohan got soft, that's it. I don't count the Daizenshuu, it's not the original work. I'm going purely off the original work. The fact that Gohan couldn't get stronger due to rage at a different point in the story doesn't mean that Gohan experienced another boost on top of what was already a considerable boost from the transformation in the Cell Games. It doesn't make any sense. Why complicate things by having Gohan transform and then get a boost on top of that? The transformation was the boost!

Stop saying that I'm inferring things. You are keep ignoring the fact that it is stated that Gohan got SS2 + Rage Boost against Cell in the manga. Goku told Gohan to get angry like he did against Cell, and we see Gohan trying to get angry to get the same power he had against Cell, and never succeeded in doing so. And don't tell me that he is trying to turn into a Super Saiyan 2, because he could transform just fine without getting angry against Kibito.

[Kid Buu]

I like the Nappa-Recoome rehash, and I don't think the arc jumped the shark here; I think it did when the Genki Dama refused to kill Freeza.

You no like SSJ?

Well it's just that prior to SSJ the battle was really interesting because we saw Goku put up various different strategies to hold his own against Freeza, where as the SSJ portion was mostly just him overwhelming Freeza.

[FrogTrigger]

Adult Gohan was pretty funny, especially the Great Saiyaman stuff. I liked that and kind of found it wack he was uh relegated to background status in GT

Plus the glasses seemed more for show than eyesight, if anything

[ABED]

Gohan got angry and unlocked his hidden power. SS2 was his hidden power. You are looking far too deep at what is very surface level.

So, Gohan was tapping to his SS2 power all this time, from Raditz's attack?! Goku & Vegeta didn't show that ability, yet they could transform into SS2?

No, there's just Toriyama's story, he's the author, ergo, his story is canon. An anime adaptation doesn't supersede the author. What are you even getting at? If someone adapts the work of the original author, there's no longer an official canon? That makes NO sense whatsoever, there are different takes, but one official take, the one written by the original author. The Sherlock Holmes stories written by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle don't cease to be canon just because his character is one of if not the most adapted character in all of fiction.

Yeah... you are wrong. There is no official established canon, end of story. You can have your personal canon, but there is no official canon for Dragon Ball.

You are inferring what you want to. Gohan got soft, that's it. I don't count the Daizenshuu, it's not the original work. I'm going purely off the original work. The fact that Gohan couldn't get stronger due to rage at a different point in the story doesn't mean that Gohan experienced another boost on top of what was already a considerable boost from the transformation in the Cell Games. It doesn't make any sense. Why complicate things by having Gohan transform and then get a boost on top of that? The transformation was the boost!

Stop saying that I'm inferring things. You are keep ignoring the fact that it is stated that Gohan got SS2 + Rage Boost against Cell in the manga. Goku told Gohan to get angry like he did against Cell, and we see Gohan trying to get angry to get the same power he had against Cell, and never succeeded in doing so. And don't tell me that he is trying to turn into a Super Saiyan 2, because he could transform just fine without getting angry against Kibito.

I don't want to do the whole "you're wrong, no you're wrong" but in this case, I'll suck it up because it has to be said, NO, you're wrong. The mere fact that Toriyama wrote his story makes it canon. I don't know how this is even up for debate. How is someone's own story not official?

It doesn't say that Gohan got SS2+rage boost. He did get angry against Cell and that's why he turned SS2. The reason he doesn't have the same power despite being able to turn SS2 is because he hasn't trained in years. As far as I know, SS and it's subsequent forms are some sort of multiplier.

In the Cell Games It was all about Gohan's power finally reaching their full potential. SS2 was the culmination "culmination" (American Pie reference) of that story. It would be ridiculous to build to such a climactic moment and then say "and he has a boost on top of that."

[FrogTrigger]

Trunks reminds me of not just the terminator, but Nate Grey

[ABED]

Trunks reminds me of not just the terminator, but Nate Grey

Isn't Kyle Reese a more apt comparison?

[FrogTrigger]

Trunks reminds me of not just the terminator, but Nate Grey

Isn't Kyle Reese a more apt comparison?

yea, that's what I meant

the Nate Grey/Cable thing is because he's from a post apocalyptic future and the child of two main characters in the series

Though it'd be pretty wild if Trunks showed up OLDER than Vegeta

[ABED]

Trunks reminds me of not just the terminator, but Nate Grey

Isn't Kyle Reese a more apt comparison?

yea, that's what I meant

the Nate Grey/Cable thing is because he's from a post apocalyptic future and the child of two main characters in the series

Though it'd be pretty wild if Trunks showed up OLDER than Vegeta

I never read X-Men comics, I'm only familiar with the 90s cartoon. I only remember his mutant name. Is Nate Grey his birth name?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't want to do the whole "you're wrong, no you're wrong" but in this case, I'll suck it up because it has to be said, NO, you're wrong. The mere fact that Toriyama wrote his story makes it canon. I don't know how this is even up for debate. How is someone's own story not official?

"Official" and "canon" are not the same things. The manga, the anime, the video games, the action figures, etc, are all official. Dragon Ball isn't owned exclusively by Toriyama, and Shueisha can come and say "the anime is canon, and the manga isn't" if they want to. But they never said anything like this, no source ever said anything about canon. There is the manga story, the anime story, etc. There is no canon in Dragon Ball.

It doesn't say that Gohan got SS2+rage boost. He did get angry against Cell and that's why he turned SS2. The reason he doesn't have the same power despite being able to turn SS2 is because he hasn't trained in years. As far as I know, SS and it's subsequent forms are some sort of multiplier.

Then what was Gohan trying to do by getting angry against Boo? By your logic, he was trying to turn into Super Saiyan 2, and he couldn't. But wait, we saw him a few chapters ago transforming without any rage boost, and without any problem at all!

In the Cell Games It was all about Gohan's power finally reaching their full potential. SS2 was the culmination "culmination" (American Pie reference) of that story. It would be ridiculous to build to such a climactic moment and then say "and he has a boost on top of that."

But this isn't Gohan's full potential, there is still Super Saiyan 3, and then Ultimate, which was far beyond Super Saiyan 3. Super Saiyan 2 would have been a Gohan-exclusive thing by your logic, yet Goku & Vegeta could also do it... but could never get a rage boost?

[FrogTrigger]

I never read X-Men comics, I'm only familiar with the 90s cartoon. I only remember his mutant name. Is Nate Grey his birth name?

[/quote]
yeah, or well it's complicated (like most of 90's x-men)

Nathan Summers/Grey is his birth name, and he's the son of Jean Grey and Cyclops/Scott Summers who goes back in time to prevent apocalypse from ruling the future

[ABED]

"Official" and "canon" are not the same things. The manga, the anime, the video games, the action figures, etc, are all official. Dragon Ball isn't owned exclusively by Toriyama, and Shueisha can come and say "the anime is canon, and the manga isn't" if they want to. But they never said anything like this, no source ever said anything about canon. There is the manga story, the anime story, etc. There is no canon in Dragon Ball.

Regardless of my misuse of official, the canon argument still stands. Dragon Ball is Toriyama's story, he's the author of the source material, it's his story. The anime is an adaptation just like Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's Holmes stories were adapted. End of story. Shueisha owns the rights to adapt in another medium.

By your logic, he was trying to turn into Super Saiyan 2

No, not what I meant at all.

But this isn't Gohan's full potential, there is still Super Saiyan 3, and then Ultimate, which was far beyond Super Saiyan 3. Super Saiyan 2 would have been a Gohan-exclusive thing by your logic, yet Goku & Vegeta could also do it... but could never get a rage boost?

Which Gohan would have to get through additional training. Up to that point, Gohan was still reaching into his seemingly bottomless well of power, and just like Goku using Karin's special water to draw out his latent powers, SS2 was Gohan's culmination. Please stop saying "by your logic". You don't understand my point. If you're confused, don't claim to know, just ask.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Regardless of my misuse of official, the canon argument still stands. Dragon Ball is Toriyama's story, he's the author of the source material, it's his story. The anime is an adaptation just like Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's Holmes stories. End of story.

You don't seem to get what I'm saying, so I'll end it here.

No, not what I meant at all.

Then what was he trying to do then?

Which Gohan would have to get through additional training. Up to that point, Gohan was still reaching into his seemingly bottomless well of power, and just like Goku using Karin's special water to draw out his latent powers, SS2 was Gohan's culmination.

That is you inferring things. Super Saiyan 2 is just a transformation that any Saiyan can achieve, nothing more, nothing less, since Goku & Vegeta could do it as well, and they didn't have any marvelous hidden power like Gohan.

[ABED]

I do get your argument, I'm saying that you're wrong and I can't even conceive of how the original works aren't canon. It makes no sense. If you're write, then canon is meaningless, since damn near everything is adapted. Harry Potter isn't adapted because WB owns the rights for film adaptations.

Why does it matter what Gohan was trying to do in the Buu arc, that has no bearing on what happened in the Cell arc.

That is you inferring things. Super Saiyan 2 is just a transformation that any Saiyan can achieve, nothing more, nothing less, since Goku & Vegeta could do it as well, and they didn't have any marvelous hidden power like Gohan.

But they didn't do it nearly as quickly as Gohan did. Gohan had a lot more latent power than they did to unlock. I can't connect the dots with this argument. What does it prove about Gohan's rage boosts? I didn't infer anything, it's all there on the surface.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Why does it matter what Gohan was trying to do in the Buu arc, that has no bearing on what happened in the Cell arc.

Of course it matters, because Goku told him to do the same thing he did against Cell.

But they didn't do it nearly as quickly as Gohan did.

Irrelevant. Goku & Vegeta transformed faster into Super Saiyans.

Gohan had a lot more latent power than they did to unlock. I can't connect the dots with this argument. What does it prove about Gohan's rage boosts? I didn't infer anything, it's all there on the surface.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you implying that Super Saiyan 2 is Gohan's rage boost manifested into a transformation? Because if that's the case, I disagree. Goku & Vegeta could transform, meaning that it isn't a manifestation of a special exclusive trait of a certain Saiyan Halfling.

Also, about Super Saiyan & personality changes, check this thread. It is stated in the manga that SS makes them more brutal (which is eliminated by mastering SS), and there are guidebooks stating the same for Super Saiyan 2, and that Super Saiyan 3 gives a calmer heart.

[ABED]

Because when he got angry at the Cell Games he unleashed his full power by going SS2.

Of course it's relevant, and no they didn't go SS faster and easier than they did. Gohan turned SS when he was still a child and didn't go through the torturous training either man did.

That thread doesn't help your case, I saw a number of comments that disagreed with you. The point of mastering Super Saiyan isn't to master one's anger, it was explicitly stated that the purpose was so they could conserve energy. I don't go by the guidebooks, I'm going strictly by Toriyama's work.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Because when he got angry at the Cell Games he unleashed his full power by going SS2.

Goku did the same thing against Freeza, yet he didn't have any rage boosts before.

Of course it's relevant, and no they didn't go SS faster and easier than they did. Gohan turned SS when he was still a child and didn't go through the torturous training either man did.

Yeah, my bad. So yes, he transformed faster because he has more dormant power than them.

That thread doesn't help your case, I saw a number of comments that disagreed with you.

And? We still have the manga stating that Super Saiyan makes the user more brutal, we still have the manga saying that by mastering Super Saiyan they also want to get rid of that "restless feeling", we still have the manga showing Gohan turning more brutal as a Super Saiyan 2, we still have the manga portraying Super Saiyan 3 Goku as calmer than he usually is, and we still have the manga stating that Ultimate Gohan isn't soft like he normally is.

[superfunk]

Yeah... you are wrong. There is no official established canon, end of story. You can have your personal canon, but there is no official canon for Dragon Ball.

I get what you are saying, but canon is still a word with a definition, the manga fits the definition of canon, you can't get around the semantics of it. So even if there are no official statements on what is canon,the original manga is still canon no matter how you feel about it.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Νο. There is no official canon. There is not one true story that everything follows. There is the manga story, the anime story, etc.

[rereboy]

Talking about canon obviously only makes sense when there are multiple takes on the story. When there's only one take, canon doesn't exist because for canon to exist something else must be non canon. With only one take, one work, the very notion of canon doesn't make sense.

In Dragon Ball's case, there are multiple takes on the story, so the notion of canon makes sense as a means to establish just what counts and is included as and in the core take. Obviously, in Dragon Ball's case, the canon will always include the original story/manga, but will it limit itself to the manga or does it include other element from other takes? It could include other elements so it would be possible for the canon to be more than just the manga, but no canon has ever been officially established, so only personal canons exist in the mind of the fans.

So Dragon Ball should have a canon because it has multiple takes on its story, but none has ever been officially established, so only personal canons exist at the moment.

As for Gohan and his rage boosts and SSJ2, obviously his rage boosts are different from his SSJ2. He had rage boosts long before his SSJ2 and he manage to pull off a rage boost on top of his SSJ2 to finish off Cell, which makes it very clear that they are not the same thing, not to mention that if they were the same thing, it wouldn't make sense for other saiyans to have SSJ2. Gohan managed to unlock his SSJ2 thanks to the power boost from his rage boost, but they are not the same thing.