New Animation VS Old Animation

[GarrettCRW]

One would kind of expect that the Timing Directors have some level of experience as actual animators, but I think the role's presence is a bit insulting. The key animators at the South Korean studios are the ones doing the actual animation, they ought to be deciding and playing with the animation.

Here's a little sequence from the second episode of G.I. Joe, "Slave of the Cobra Master" (which was made well before timing directors were made standard in American productions) behind the spoiler tag:

Spoiler:

".....cannot be permitted!


"Ooooohhh!!! The world has refused...."


"....to surrender to Cobra!"


"People are volunteering to stand and fight until the bitter end!"


*Destro opens the crumpled note as he speaks* "Worse, our spies have reported that G.I. Joe..."

The Japanese animator at Toei totally mistimes the last shot in this short sequence because he doesn't understand what is being said. It's one of the ugliest errors in a miniseries that's very near feature film quality (by 1983 standards, obviously).

This is my American patriotism speaking, but what baffles me the most is that episodes have nine months for production and $300,000-500,000 an episode yet they move or look no better than an episode with $100,000 budget. It really surprises me that we're spending that much on our animation with so little in results. It's not like the children watching will notice if the cel count for animation drops. I think it'd be cool to see the budgets slashed so we could try giving each show the occasional 'in-house' episode. Well, assuming there's enough animators left at WBA...

And I don't think you quite understand the cost of American labor in the animation industry, specifically labor governed by the Hollywood Animation Guild (and SAG and AFTRA for the voice talent). Furthermore, shows that aren't cheaping out by using Flash tend to avoid long sequences with minimal and/or repeated animation as a matter of principle (i.e., their staffs grew up with shows dominated by limited animation techniques and outright stock footage, and have a justified aversion to it). There tends to be a demand for more backgrounds per episode of an American show (which on the whole is a positive thing, but it does add up), and until the digital era, US shows cost more because they demanded 35mm film stock instead of 16mm stock. I strongly suggest you read Lou Scheimer's autobiography, Creating the Filmation Generation to understand just how impossible it is to animate a TV cartoon in America because the costs of foreign labor are so obscenely low.

[Attitudefan]

That's really a shame that a native North American who aspires to be an animator that is all tweened, someone who aspires to do frame by frame anime/Disney type of animation can't because foreign labour is cheaper. This is the problem in all job markets actually. The best someone with a degree in Arts might as well end up as a bank teller for goodness sakes!!

[dbboxkaifan]

This is possibly my least favourite animation style of Dragon Ball:



This Goku looks nothing like the original and his face is almost like a ball.

[JulieYBM]

I think we've long since established that the key animators with their own individual styles animating these characters based on Yamamuro Tadayoshi's character models (and not always corrected by Yamamuro Tadayoshi) look different from the ever-changing look of the characters from the 1984 comic series.

The Japanese animator at Toei totally mistimes the last shot in this short sequence because he doesn't understand what is being said. It's one of the ugliest errors in a miniseries that's very near feature film quality (by 1983 standards, obviously).

I'm not seeing why this justifies having someone completely unrelated to the key animation in question time the thing. Why not translate the script so the key animators know what they're doing? That would be cheaper than hiring a half dozen timing directors. Or have directors communicate with their key animators, especially in this email age. These shows aren't going to improve if they keep trying to use what they've been doing up until now.

Furthermore, shows that aren't cheaping out by using Flash tend to avoid long sequences with minimal and/or repeated animation as a matter of principle (i.e., their staffs grew up with shows dominated by limited animation techniques and outright stock footage, and have a justified aversion to it).

Obviously I've cut around this paragraph, mostly because this is the only part I have something to reply to. Flash might be cheaper, but there's no reason to associate that with something inferior. I think our use of flash has been pretty mediocre so far, but there are plenty of things it can accomplish. Assuming you have actual talent on hand, that is.

[DarkPrince_92]

This is possibly my least favourite animation style of Dragon Ball:



This Goku looks nothing like the original and his face is almost like a ball.

Yeah that special made DBZ look terrible for the most part. All of Shida's scenes were on point though.

[JulieYBM]

The crossover special had twenty-eight key animators from nine different studios, two animaation supervisors (Yabumoto Yousuke and Yokoyama Kenji) and three chief animation supervisors (Kagawa Hisashi, Hisada Kazuya, and Ide Takeo). The special was announced in February and aired in early April. This means that the special was produced in six weeks. Factor in that Toei Animation has a tremendous schedule of output and it's no surprise that the special looked terrible and rushed. These days animation in Japan is produced at such a breakneck pace that uninspired key animation just scribble out bad work and expect the animation supervisor to fix it for them. This is why you sometimes see so many animation supervisors are a single episode, as is the case here.

[rereboy]

Toei's current products look awful when compared to some really high budgeted animation. I mean, what I love about Attack on Titan is how it looks so distinct and it doesn't look flat. That is one show that went all out and then some with their animation for a TV serial show.

I'm not gonna defend Toei being cheap, because they are, but Attack on Titan, was, correct me if I'm wrong, planned for only 20-something episodes. It's super popular, and will most likely get another series, but for right now, that's it. Dragon Ball had no finite set end date. The plan was to keep it in perpetual motion until it stopped making money... and that was nine years.

Basically, a show that knows it's only going to produce so many episodes can balance a budget accordingly, and is going to look better than something that's made to fill air time.

EDIT: More good examples; FMA and SOUL EATER. Capped from the get-go at 50~ episodes.

But that mentality is the whole problem. They start an anime without any real plan besides "we'll just make the weekly episodes as we go along and then make the decisions as the need arises".

Like any professional company, they should plan the season ahead of time, they should decide how many episodes they will make that season, decide how much material from the manga they want to adapt, where in the story they want the last episode of the season to be, what and how much filler they will want to use, etc.

And, by the end of the season, based on their results, they would decide if they want to do another season next year or wait a while until they do another season or just don't do any other season in the foreseeable future.

Instead, they just decide as they go along, with all the bad that comes from it, because they are only worried about profits and they are afraid to invest in quality because they fear that they will not gain as much if they do. Which is also the reason why they chose to do DB Kai instead of a real remake, because they only care about profits but are to afraid to invest in quality. Toei is terrible because of this.

[B]

Like any professional company, they should plan the season ahead of time, they should decide how many episodes they will make that season, decide how much material from the manga they want to adapt, where in the story they want the last episode of the season to be, what and how much filler they will want to use, etc.

I'm positive long-running shows like DB do this, even if it's not broken up into "seasons." They're usually called "cours" are quarterly. But, as has been said, they're planning for the show to be on forever, so even if they've organized ahead of time something like "alright, the first 26 episodes will go like this..." they're not going to spend a large amount of money on a per-episode basis.

[rereboy]

Like any professional company, they should plan the season ahead of time, they should decide how many episodes they will make that season, decide how much material from the manga they want to adapt, where in the story they want the last episode of the season to be, what and how much filler they will want to use, etc.

I'm positive long-running shows like DB do this, even if it's not broken up into "seasons." They're usually called "cours" are quarterly. But, as has been said, they're planning for the show to be on forever, so even if they've organized ahead of time something like "alright, the first 26 episodes will go like this..." they're not going to spend a large amount of money on a per-episode basis.

They don't do things like I was talking about. What I was talking about is essentially do things like animes which are more seasonal do things: do a season, planning everything about it, and then they decide how to proceed next, by doing another season next year or wait.

Instead, the way Toei does things regarding shows like Dragon Ball:

- they have no idea how things will end because they don't really plan for it, they just plan to keep going and going, which many times ends in disaster, with rushed and made-up wrap-ups, inconsistent with the manga, like its happening now on Toriko; or

- the show gets too close to the manga as it goes along or they fear that it will get too close to the manga, and so they have to come up with filler, often with little time to come up with it, or decrease the pacing to dragging levels; or

- since they really have no idea for how long the show will run, they use every opportunity they can to save money and decrease quality, instead of maintaining sustainable and pre-determined consistent level of quality.

They care more about having a new episode every week than the quality of the anime because they are afraid to invest in its quality out of fear of not making as much money. That's what I'm criticizing.

[JulieYBM]

They don't take breaks because the idea is to create a non-stop marketing tool. The cheaply made weekly cartoon is meant to keep all of the other merchandise in the public eye.

Naruto Shippuuden does plan ahead. Series Director Date Hayato tweeted about how last fall they had already planned through this summer. After this current original television story arc the series is in the rest of the year will adapt the comic, too. It's suffice it to say Dragon Ball was planned accordingly, too, merely with less of an idea of where the story was going.

[rereboy]

They don't take breaks because the idea is to create a non-stop marketing tool. The cheaply made weekly cartoon is meant to keep all of the other merchandise in the public eye.

Like I said, because they only care about profits. They are afraid that the investment in the quality of their products will not result in pay-offs as big as with their current m.o.. They are so afraid of it and fixated in profits that they end up doing something like Kai instead of a proper remake for example. Which is a shame because a proper and good remake of DB would sell like crazy, but they are just too afraid.

Naruto Shippuuden does plan ahead. Series Director Date Hayato tweeted about how last fall they had already planned through this summer. After this current original television story arc the series is in the rest of the year will adapt the comic, too. It's suffice it to say Dragon Ball was planned accordingly, too, merely with less of an idea of where the story was going.

Obviously there's planning going on in shows like that, but not the all planning that would and should be going on if it was a well made seasonal initiative.

[JulieYBM]

There's not necessarily a reason to take breaks, though. Simply writing interesting story arcs original to the cartoon and having them last long will not only create something interesting and new, but also allow the episodes that adapt the comic to be able to move faster.

[Flame Dragon]

This is possibly my least favourite animation style of Dragon Ball:

My god... saying this looks bad would be a compliment...

They don't take breaks because the idea is to create a non-stop marketing tool. The cheaply made weekly cartoon is meant to keep all of the other merchandise in the public eye.

Like I said, because they only care about profits. They are afraid that the investment in the quality of their products will not result in pay-offs as big as with their current m.o.. They are so afraid of it and fixated in profits that they end up doing something like Kai instead of a proper remake for example. Which is a shame because a proper and good remake of DB would sell like crazy, but they are just too afraid.

Naruto Shippuuden does plan ahead. Series Director Date Hayato tweeted about how last fall they had already planned through this summer. After this current original television story arc the series is in the rest of the year will adapt the comic, too. It's suffice it to say Dragon Ball was planned accordingly, too, merely with less of an idea of where the story was going.

Obviously there's planning going on in shows like that, but not the all planning that would and should be going on if it was a well made seasonal initiative.

If a DB remake would look as shitty as the stuff they put out now, then i'm glad they won't do it.
Kai is a godsend to me, at least i can enjoy a more faithful product to the manga without having to stare at new, badly drawned, crappily coloured animation lazily done on a computer without any life or effort.
Hell, i'd rather have the reanimated shots from Kai than a crappy lifeless remake.

Sorry to say it so harshly, but really man... what happened? Toei stuff looks abyssmal now.

I'm afraid that i will hate new One Piece animation too when i get to the timeskip...

[JulieYBM]

animation lazily done on a computer without any life or effort.

Hand drawn animation done on a computer is not inherently lazy. Bad animators are the problem, not the computers.

I'm afraid that i will hate new One Piece animation too when i get to the timeskip...

All of One Piece is done during the digital age. Episodes #1-206 are merely in standard definition and 4:3. Episodes #207+ have been in high-definition and 16:9. Around Amazon Lily the character designer changed from Koizumi Noboru to Hisada Kazuya because Hisada was better at copying Oda's current style.

[Puto]

All of One Piece is done during the digital age.

First few movies are cel. They're the exception though.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

This is possibly my least favourite animation style of Dragon Ball:

I am speechless at the sight of this cap, the render of goku is just incredibly hard to look at rushed or not, it just emphasizes the sub-standard quality level of cheapness Toei seems to have in their anime now. It reminds me of the derpy DBZ sagas opening, it doesnt even seem accurate at all but just an abstract adaption of what they*think* goku looks like, that or the budget and animators are both equally terrible. Worst render I've seen yet. It was the reason why I ignored the One piece-Toriko-DB cross over.

The thing I dislike most in animation nowadays is the CGI use.
When bad used (most of the time) it looks horrible.

There are times where the characters look great, this new art style isn’t so kind to backgrounds or details.

I just don't like the direction they're taking with DBZ either. I cant see the series going into CGI territory as hinted with BoG, it makes it look sometimes like a video game with jarring 3D scenarios. CGI is the worst thing they could add to DBZ, my stance on it is that CGI for cartoons/anime is very situation reliant depending on how much of it youre staring at and how long. It also heavily dependant on how seamless it is so that its not noticable. The CGI used in BoG is exactly what it didn't do. It was jerky and far too obvious where it started and finished, I get they were trying to make the fights look more "realistic" or emmersive but oh-god no it didn't. It just made the backgrounds look artificial and too clean.

That Gohan picture really is lifeless compared to the original.
In the original Gohan looked shocked and desperate, the tears were drawn to look real (instead of being drawn like cartoon style tears, all white and no depth...) meanwhile in the new it looks like Gohan is a little pissy because someone ate his cookie.

You think thats bad? SSJ2 Kai-Gohan just looks ugly and the bright single-toned colours make it look cartoony and ametuerish.
- Ears are higher up on head
- Eyes are larger and Irises are smaller / Eye brows are longer
- Clothing is a lighter shade
- Mouth is longer
- Pecks are lowered
- SSJ2 bang is thicker and flatter / animation is wispy
- Hair is all one tone (and orange rather than dark gold)
- Hair style is completely off. (Flatter and mane-like) as opposed to straight up an compact.




Its not an official model but its a lazier incarnation of how they would draw it if it was.It reflects their newer, uglier art designs.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

I agree. I don't like it either for all the reasons you mentioned. It looks too cheap.

I recently rewatched the original "Freeza blows up planet Vegeta" scene and I saw the major difference in quality I didnt notice until I saw it. The way the new animated scene looks, it looks worse than the original which ironically looked smoother. The new animation style looks way too robotic with frame transition as mentioned. Then the designs look like they have no weight to them, the leaner variation of Perfect Cell's head projections and brow just look ugly. Perfect Cell in general looks ugly in the new art.

Then the designs of certain things, planet Vegeta in the new version looks really cheaply done, like a background cut out of a magazine croped into a circle. Then when the death ball hit the planet it lagged before lodging in, and then the scene on planet vegeta again looked like a magazine cut out. Then the explosion itself was really slow, it looked like it was bubbling up before the boom, where as in the original it was an instant flash of motion thrusted at the screen. I don't get why the new art looks so bad now-adays, most anime improves with reboots, DBZ seems to get worse and cornier looking.

[El Diabeetus]

It looks cheap because it would be safe to assume Toei's doing it even more on the cheap than the original versions were. I also think it has to do with what JulieYBM has been saying that there just isn't any (or not much) talent involved in recent DB animation. Also Yamamuro seems to force his designs to be on model most of the time. The exception to bad animators are when the likes of Naotoshi Shida are animating.

[JulieYBM]

Shida Naotoshi and Oonishi Ryou (Super Saiyan Bardock versus Chilled and the Super Saiyan God transformation) have been the only two consistently involved key animators that have any talent as animators. Even then they both do very little work because they're busy doing work on other properties for Toei Animation. The number of drawings allowed in the Ultimate Blast cut scenes is very small and the only good key animators involved with that game worked on the Opening alone.

Complaints should not be about 'the new style' so much as they should be about the lack of talented key animators, directors, and a sufficient number of drawings. Let the key animators who worked on the Ultimate Blast Opening work alone on a single twenty minute episode with ten or even five thousand drawings and you'll have an awesome episode that beats the Hell out of anything Toei produced twenty years ago.

Key Animation:
Ootsuka Ken
Wada Takaaki
Tate Naoki
Kawamura Atsuko
Kurita Shin’ichi
Shida Naotoshi
Oonishi Ryou
Satou Masayuki

[Vijay]

Its funny that no matter how much fans cry in a forum, nothing gonna come out of it.

Anime is business. Low investment, above-average ROI. Deal. Thanks to us. Fans.

TOEI keeps milking DBZ with cheaply produced adaptations with lame excuses in the form of lack of talents.

If you lack talents, hire new, talented one's. Giving half-baked projects & shoving down the (fans) throat is perhaps what TOEI think'll keep it strong in the business. It gave us GT after all.