Dragon Ball and the Bechdel test.

[Hades]

So...anyone wanna sum up the results of this thread for me and bring me up to speed?

Basically, First World Problems, or more specifically, what white middle class women living in the first world think are problems on par with getting shot at in the Ukraine.

Just because one group's problem is less "bad" than another group's does not mean that they don't have a right to complain and attempt to rectify the situation, or that the "lesser" situation should wait until the "worse" situation is resolved to be fixed.

In most circumstances, the sheer fact that someone has been born and raised in the first world means that they got life not only on easy mode, but with the cheat codes. Most complaints about life in the first world, like the Bechdel Test, aren't so much "lesser" as much as "utterly trivial".

[Kamiccolo9]

In most circumstances, the sheer fact that someone has been born and raised in the first world means that they got life not only on easy mode, but with the cheat codes. Most complaints about life in the first world, like the Bechdel Test, aren't so much "lesser" as much as "utterly trivial".

Fine. People with cancer are much worse off than people with colds. We should totally stop making cold medicine in order to focus purely on cancer. It's not like colds are anywhere near as bad, right?

[Rocketman]

Most, damn near all, of those "advantages" are rooted in the idea that women are inferior and need to be coddled.

Sure, but that doesn't make them not advantageous.

Yes it does. Because people start thinking "THOSE GODDAMN FEMALES GOT ENOUGH POWER" and electing politicians talking about "legitimate rape" and passing anti-women laws.

[Gaffer Tape]

So... in order to make sure that women have equal advantages... we can't let them have any advantages... because if they do... then they'll be taken away... so we don't let them have any advantages... and then they'll be equal.

I'm sorry, but your logic is consistently based on nothing but hyperbole and the most extreme hypothetical situations. You honestly, seriously believe that people having open and candid discourse about gender inequality in favor of women opens the trap door that drops us down the slippery slope to legitimizing rape?

It made more logical sense when Goku randomly got mind-reading powers from training in 100 times earth's gravity.

[rereboy]

Yes it does. Because people start thinking "THOSE GODDAMN FEMALES GOT ENOUGH POWER" and electing politicians talking about "legitimate rape" and passing anti-women laws.

You are the king of escalation.

By the way, people who think like what you described don't need women to have any advantage to think like that and they certainly don't think like that because they have advantages. At most, they try to justify their discrimination and sexism with those. That's all.

You are clearly missing the whole point of what was being said and trying to cloud it by adding the notion that, somehow, admitting that women aren't at a disadvantage at EVERYTHING will make the situation for women worse.

Gender equality will only be possible when everybody is understanding and honest, not by ignoring stuff.

[Hades]

Most, damn near all, of those "advantages" are rooted in the idea that women are inferior and need to be coddled.

Sure, but that doesn't make them not advantageous.

Yes it does. Because people start thinking "THOSE GODDAMN FEMALES GOT ENOUGH POWER" and electing politicians talking about "legitimate rape" and passing anti-women laws.

I doubt there's that much to worry about. After all, the Romans were VERY misogynistic, yet rapists got far worse punishments then than today (they were castrated by having their "dragon and balls" ground between two stones).

[Rocketman]

You honestly, seriously believe that people having open and candid discourse about gender inequality in favor of women opens the trap door that drops us down the slippery slope to legitimizing rape?

We already had politicians talking about "legitimate rape". It happened before the 2012 elections.

[Gaffer Tape]

Huh? That is that not even remotely what I said. I'm saying it's ridiculous bordering on conspiracy theory to say that admitting that women have it easy when it comes to not having to register for the draft is some kind of impetus for politicians to want full legal immunity to have non-consensual sex with them. This is borderline Chewbacca Defense material here. I'm bowing out because you just seem to want to shut down everyone who doesn't agree with your opinion. Honestly, I expect better debate from you, Rocketman. You're the guy who always comes to the Dragon Ball science-related topics with well-researched fact and logic, not emotionally-charged dogma and fear-mongering hyperbole.

Ahem... anyway. I'm glad this topic exists. It's obviously ripe for discussion, and although it's veered into a much more general direction, I've never thought DB handled its female characters amazingly, even though it does have some pretty good ones. But then again, Dragon Ball isn't exactly a series that handles the vast majority of its characters well... so, how about that? Is it entirely fair to say that women get the shaft in DB when almost all characters, male and female, aren't utilized as well as they could have been? Just throwing that out there.

[KentalSSJ6]

Am I the only one who finds this has gone hilariously off topic and pointless to argue about in a Dragonball forum?

[mAcChaos]

Yeah, you can get this debate pretty much anywhere on any social media.

Although it does kind of tie into the OP.

[FrogTrigger]

Huh? That is that not even remotely what I said. I'm saying it's ridiculous bordering on conspiracy theory to say that admitting that women have it easy when it comes to not having to register for the draft is some kind of impetus for politicians to want full legal immunity to have non-consensual sex with them. This is borderline Chewbacca Defense material here. I'm bowing out because you just seem to want to shut down everyone who doesn't agree with your opinion. Honestly, I expect better debate from you, Rocketman. You're the guy who always comes to the Dragon Ball science-related topics with well-researched fact and logic, not emotionally-charged dogma and fear-mongering hyperbole.

Ahem... anyway. I'm glad this topic exists. It's obviously ripe for discussion, and although it's veered into a much more general direction, I've never thought DB handled its female characters amazingly, even though it does have some pretty good ones. But then again, Dragon Ball isn't exactly a series that handles the vast majority of its characters well... so, how about that? Is it entirely fair to say that women get the shaft in DB when almost all characters, male and female, aren't utilized as well as they could have been? Just throwing that out there.

I don't think that's what he's saying/Saiyan but anywaaaaays

well if you're not useful in an arc you're prob not getting a whole lotta focus

[goku the krump dancer]

I love conversations like this, something about 'em are so enticing.

and plus this conversation in particular is a big breath of fresh air from all the "Cell arc/DBZ sucks" threads and discussions that have been going on lately.

[Gaffer Tape]

well if you're not useful in an arc you're prob not getting a whole lotta focus

You know, it's the author who gets to determine who is useful in an arc...

[RandomGuy96]

Characters are usually shafted if they're irrelevant and/or uninteresting.

[Rocketman]

Huh? That is that not even remotely what I said. I'm saying it's ridiculous bordering on conspiracy theory to say that admitting that women have it easy when it comes to not having to register for the draft is some kind of impetus for politicians to want full legal immunity to have non-consensual sex with them. This is borderline Chewbacca Defense material here.

Huh? Dude, it was a huge national story. Here's the quote:

[Gaffer Tape]

*stuff*

I have to seriously ask, am I somehow not being clear? I'm not refuting that this quote exists. I've read it. I know about it. There's no issue with me on that. Yes. Someone said this. But it has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about. I'm arguing against this weird idea you have that it's in any way an effect of admitting that women have advantages in this society! My only issue is with the logic you used to come to that conclusion because it honestly does not make any logical sense to me.

[FrogTrigger]

well if you're not useful in an arc you're prob not getting a whole lotta focus

You know, it's the author who gets to determine who is useful in an arc...

No one is saying he doesn't decide that dude

Just seemed like as the series went on, piccolo and the earth gang got shafted

I mean dB isn't like veritas where the most op character is female or has as many, but that's prob bc of the diff comic genres

[Gaffer Tape]

well if you're not useful in an arc you're prob not getting a whole lotta focus

You know, it's the author who gets to determine who is useful in an arc...

No one is saying he doesn't decide that dude

Just seemed like as the series went on, piccolo and the earth gang got shafted

I never said you said that. But the implication is that these characters just happened to fall out of focus because they happened to not be useful. They could have been useful. But they weren't. Toriyama chose to write them that way. He could have chosen to do interesting things with them or continue to do interesting things with them. He did not.

[Zephyr]

Most, damn near all, of those "advantages" are rooted in the idea that women are inferior and need to be coddled.

Sure, but that doesn't make them not advantageous.

Yes it does. Because people start thinking "THOSE GODDAMN FEMALES GOT ENOUGH POWER" and electing politicians talking about "legitimate rape" and passing anti-women laws.

"Having an advantage doesn't count as having an advantage because of things that have nothing to do with said advantage".

I'm sorry, what? It doesn't matter if the advantages one group has over another makes them wholly more advantageous, they still have those advantages.

Let's do this again. If someone has an advantage in one area, it means they have an advantage in that one area. If they have advantages in multiple areas, it means they have advantages in multiple areas. This is how logic works. "Oh well they are at a disadvantage in areas X, Y, and Z, so that means they have absolutely no advantages!" is meaningless illogical conjecture.

[Kid Buu]

I would also again point to how easily this can be turned to the lack of male characters that don't fall into one stereotype or another, but you're clearly only concerned with one side of the sexism card.

Heh, when I did a Bechdel test on Naruto for my Images of Women in media class, my teacher made me pick a female-centered manga to do a male version of the Bechdel test so I did the Sailor Moon manga.