Dragon Ball and the Bechdel test.

[Rocketman]

It all boils down to how one person views both genders and the type of story they want to create.

Each individual work is fine on its own, but they don't exist alone. The cumulative effect is bad, even if all the individual parts are ok.

[Big Momma]

All of your post

Ah, voice of reason.

Agreed. I was wanting to type something, but couldn't find the right words.

[VyeRo]

Not true on the individual level. It's only when you deal with broad aggregates that you see that "problem". Why would people who are trying to make money pay someone more to do the same job? They are either misogynist or trying to make a profit.

So.... it's still happening which was exactly my point. I could dig up stats but the gender pay gap is still a reality and not just in poorly developed countries. It's not that they pay people MORE for the same job, it's that they pay women LESS that's the "problem" here. I think that everyone agrees with me that that's slightly unfair, but it's really off topic so I won't mention it again.

@ Hades:

You're still comparing the Bechdel test to the poor living conditions in other countries, whereas I'm not doing that at all. I AGREE with you that it's a first world problem, but does that mean we shouldn't mention it ever? Like when you're at a restaurant and you get raw chicken on your plate, you're not allowed to complain about it? Because the starving children in Africa don't even have access to raw chicken and food in general? You should just eat the damn chicken and contract salmonella or whatever because you have no right to refuse food when people are starving!!!1 Okay, I'm exaggerating here but you know what I'm getting at.
And there are some countries like the U.S., Spain and Ireland where political parties are trying to restrict abortion. Like, what would have happened if Mitt Romney had won the elections? I'm scared to think about it and I'm not even a U.S. citizen.

I don't get why you're continuing to mention poor living conditions in other countries when most of us don't live there. Their conditions don't affect us directly, and I'm not saying we should just turn a blind eye to them or shouldn't raise money/awareness, but most of us are living in a first-world country and so we complain about...first-world issues. And I think the Bechdel test (no matter how flawed it is) and what it uncovers in terms of gender equality and representation is worth talking about.

How about instead of "representing" women, blacks, etc. in media, we just write good characters?

Because "just good characters" mysteriously defaults to being straight white men.

Back to the topic on hand....THIS THIS THIS. Rocketman has been slaying in this thread but what it all boils down to is this quote. And since we're talking about Joss Whedon, I'll leave this quote here:

"So, why do you write these strong female characters?"

"Because you’re still asking me that question." - Joss Whedon.

Perfect answer to this topic imo.

[Sylveon]

I think this is a far better way to test female characters. It still has some issues, though.

I think the issue is that there aren't enough female creators around, but admittedly there are plenty of misogynist women and I know that female authors are reluctant to write female characters because they are afraid men can't relate to a female protagonist.

Is Dragon Ball a sexist franchise? That's kind of a hard thing to answer. I don't think it's fair to apply modern western feminist criticism to 30 year old children's franchise from a culture I am not too familiar with tbh. (I haven't read much shonen manga from that time, but from what I've heard
Dragon Ball was actually pretty tame for its time.) Was/Is Toriyama sexist? From what I've seen of his early work(*cough* Lady Red *cough*), yes he was. But... that was a long time ago.

Does Dragon Ball portray all women negatively? Not necessarily. Dragon Ball has a small but varied selection of female characters and they all have faults, but they also have their positive qualities too. I really appreciate that Toriyama's lady characters are all fairly confident and have some backbone(and fairly realistic bodies) and aren't just generic passive girls attached to a pair of mutant boobs that are 5 times bigger than their heads. I still wish that they had a bigger part to play in the story, but I enjoy them nonetheless. Hell, I could write entire essays analysing their characters.

As a writer myself, I actually Bulma is a fairly well-written character. She has both flaws and good qualities, goes through character development, and grows and matures as a person. We even get to see a drastically different (yet believable) version of the character in the form of Future Bulma. It's ironic that one of the only characters to never throw a punch is easily the strongest female character in the entire series(writing-wise).

[Kid Buu]

I think this is a far better way to test female characters. It still has some issues, though.

I think "Does She Have Any Flaws?" is where it messes up. After all no one is perfect.

Edit - Yeah it says having flaws is a good thing, but then it leads to tropes where the characters are portrayed as flawed.

[Hades]

You're still comparing the Bechdel test to the poor living conditions in other countries, whereas I'm not doing that at all. I AGREE with you that it's a first world problem, but does that mean we shouldn't mention it ever? Like when you're at a restaurant and you get raw chicken on your plate, you're not allowed to complain about it? Because the starving children in Africa don't even have access to raw chicken and food in general? You should just eat the damn chicken and contract salmonella or whatever because you have no right to refuse food when people are starving!!!1 Okay, I'm exaggerating here but you know what I'm getting at.
And there are some countries like the U.S., Spain and Ireland where political parties are trying to restrict abortion. Like, what would have happened if Mitt Romney had won the elections? I'm scared to think about it and I'm not even a U.S. citizen.

I don't get why you're continuing to mention poor living conditions in other countries when most of us don't live there. Their conditions don't affect us directly, and I'm not saying we should just turn a blind eye to them or shouldn't raise money/awareness, but most of us are living in a first-world country and so we complain about...first-world issues. And I think the Bechdel test (no matter how flawed it is) and what it uncovers in terms of gender equality and representation is worth talking about.

Fair enough on the first world parts.

So why is Equal gender representation in media important? I mean, would it be worth the dozens of fucking terrible female characters that were created to fill an arbitrary quota? I fail to see how that's going to lead to, say, Texas adopting stricter abortion laws. Why focus on TV and not on music, because Metal and Rap have a FAR greater gender imbalance, yet the former doesn't seem to have ANY gender issues. It's much more complicated than "gender equality", however that is defined.

My point is, that the main hardships (mainly, legal protections in domestic violence, property rights etc.) that women face in first world countries are nowhere near as severe as they were, say, 50 years ago. The Bechdel test, and the strong emphasis on it, implies that Feminists seem to be, for lack of a better description, running out of causes.

[Saiga]

I think this is a far better way to test female characters. It still has some issues, though.

I think "Does She Have Any Flaws?" is where it messes up. After all no one is perfect.

While it's possible for a fictional character to be portrayed without flaws (and the chart sees that as bad, as it should) it's weird that answering "no" to not having flaws leads to a crapload of archetypes where the characters ARE portrayed as flawed. That's not very well designed.

I also think writing off the character being killed before the third act (or at all, as one of the other bubbles shows) as fridge stuffing is inaccurate. Fridge stuffing is more than just a female character dying, and dying shouldn't preclude a character from being strong.

[RandomGuy96]

I think this is a far better way to test female characters. It still has some issues, though.

I think "Does She Have Any Flaws?" is where it messes up. After all no one is perfect.

Huh? Her having flaws, and therefore being more realistic and human, is portrayed as a good thing in this chart.

[Kid Buu]

I think this is a far better way to test female characters. It still has some issues, though.

I think "Does She Have Any Flaws?" is where it messes up. After all no one is perfect.

Huh? Her having flaws, and therefore being more realistic and human, is portrayed as a good thing in this chart.

Yeah, but as Saiga said, it leads to a crapload of archetypes where the characters ARE portrayed as flawed. It's just confusing.

[ABED]

While it's possible for a fictional character to be portrayed without flaws (and the chart sees that as bad, as it should)

Why? Why is it bad to not have flaws? Are we talking errors or breaches in morality?

[Saiga]

While it's possible for a fictional character to be portrayed without flaws (and the chart sees that as bad, as it should)

Why? Why is it bad to not have flaws? Are we talking errors or breaches in morality?

Personality flaws. Most characters do have them, but you'll sometimes seem characters (particularly in fanfiction) that are completely perfect with no negative traits about them. This is what the Mary Sue is based on, as it started out to classify characters that were the fanfic author putting themselves in the story and making their insert character absolutely perfect.

[Rocketman]

So why is Equal gender representation in media important? I mean, would it be worth the dozens of fucking terrible female characters that were created to fill an arbitrary quota?

Why is it better that those terrible characters be men?

[ABED]

While it's possible for a fictional character to be portrayed without flaws (and the chart sees that as bad, as it should)

Why? Why is it bad to not have flaws? Are we talking errors or breaches in morality?

Personality flaws. Most characters do have them, but you'll sometimes seem characters (particularly in fanfiction) that are completely perfect with no negative traits about them. This is what the Mary Sue is based on, as it started out to classify characters that were the fanfic author putting themselves in the story and making their insert character absolutely perfect.

Okay, and people get cold sores, doesn't mean it would've been a good idea to put it on the Statue of David. To what end are those characters given personality flaws? Why is that inherently better than not having a flaw?

Sorry, my previous comment should've read "errors in knowledge or breaches in morality".

Why is it better that those terrible characters be men?

Or we could have good characters that happen to be either men or women.

[Hades]

So why is Equal gender representation in media important? I mean, would it be worth the dozens of fucking terrible female characters that were created to fill an arbitrary quota?

Why is it better that those terrible characters be men?

Whenever you impose a quota of "strong female characters", you are going to have problems.

[Rocketman]

So why is Equal gender representation in media important? I mean, would it be worth the dozens of fucking terrible female characters that were created to fill an arbitrary quota?

Why is it better that those terrible characters be men?

Whenever you impose a quota of "strong female characters", you are going to have problems.

Tsk. The quota would be for "female characters". Women are the majority of humans, after all.

[ABED]

So you're for discrimination against minorities?

[qjz123]

So you're for discrimination against minorities?

Keep the circle spinning at this rate it's never going to stop.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Yeah, it's only a slight majority so I think it's a bit disingenuous to go around repeating it like it's the most relevant point to be made.

[ABED]

I just want good stories, not ones that are dictated by producer pressure to add more girls. I have no problem with females on film or TV, so go ahead and add more. I'm also very much in favor of getting rid of producers with archaic beliefs about female viewing patterns that aren't backed up by statistics (for instance, many believe that young girls don't buy toys nearly as much as young boys do, but I've read otherwise).

I also think that if we blame the producers and writers, the audience shouldn't get a free pass. I'm certain there's audience bias against women in TV and film, which those shows are reflecting.

As for Toriyama, it's unfortunate that Bulma drops out of the story by and large, but given how it's a fighting manga, I don't think it hurts the story that a non-fighter is as central to the story as she used to when it was more of an adventure story.

[VyeRo]

So why is Equal gender representation in media important?
The Bechdel test, and the strong emphasis on it, implies that Feminists seem to be, for lack of a better description, running out of causes.

Equal gender representation is important as well as having a diverse cast because that's how real life works. I'm sure there are numerous studies done on this but the fact is that it does have a positive influence on women and minorities to see themselves represented in movies and TV shows, and not just in roles purely for sexual gratification. I mean the world is filled with diverse people so why do movies have such a hard time showcasing that diversity? I read some stats the other day that there are hardly any women working in movie productions/screenwriting, not because of lack of trying, but they just don't get equal opportunities. Which is pretty bad because a female writer on a show or movie might be really useful when trying to write realistic female characters.

Just take a look at the Hobbit: Desolation of Smaug. Tauriel was a pretty kickass character but Peter Jackson created her himself. Why? Because the movie needed her, otherwise it would have become too much of a sausage-fest. And even though I really liked Tauriel, I didn't like that she was part of a romantic plot (which was incredibly boring. Not all women need or want to see romance.) She was pretty fine on her own, but again her motivations were based on her affections for...a man. Snore.

I think it's not as easy to see the value of equal representation in the media when you are part of the group that doesn't experience that issue in the first place.

There's not really a strong emphasis on the Bechdel test? Like pretty much everyone agrees the test is flawed. It's only there to showcase a trend in media, but it's just one small piece of a bigger puzzle.
And feminists running out of causes? L.O.L. The Bechdel test was not made as a last resort because otherwise feminists wouldn't have anything to complain about.

Edit to include:

Yeah, it's only a slight majority so I think it's a bit disingenuous to go around repeating it like it's the most relevant point to be made.

According to the movie industry women and POC only make up about 1/5 of the entire population. The rest are straight white men. I think it's pretty relevant to bring it up.